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However, the FAQ was designed when WWW was not available, I guess. Maybe it
is a good idea to make them available now as a web site. No posting, much
more attractive, easier to use...

If Sam is listening he may give us his point of view.

Kai Jaeger



Mon, 23 Apr 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Complaints

Quote:

> However, the FAQ was designed when WWW was not available, I guess. Maybe it
> is a good idea to make them available now as a web site. No posting, much
> more attractive, easier to use...

> If Sam is listening he may give us his point of view.

> Kai Jaeger

S. Sirlin is doing a great job. Let's keep in mind that FAQ is also
available both by FTP and HTTP (See message of Lee{*filter*}ey). Posting should
remain to keep on spreading the good words.

G. Larocque

--
Guy Larocque, ing.f., Ph.D.

Research Scientist - Chercheur scientifique
Canadian Forest Service - Service canadien des forts
Laurentian Forestry Centre - Centre de Foresterie des Laurentides
1055 rue du P.E.P.S.
P.O. Box 3800
Ste-Foy (Quebec)
G1V 4C7
Tel: (418) 648-5791
Fax: (418)648-5849



Mon, 23 Apr 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Complaints

Quote:

> However, the FAQ was designed when WWW was not available, I guess.  Maybe it
> is a good idea to make them available now as a web site. No posting, much
> more attractive, easier to use...

Kai makes it sound like the APL-FAQ is not now available at a web site.
It is, at 4 locations, at least.  Two in Europe, and two in North
America.  Some of these were listed in a previous message.

There are some folks who use "e-mail only", such as those who make use
of services like JUNO.  Admittedly they are few and far between.
However I recommend continuing the one mailing of APL-FAQ each month
for the above reason and because there is a benefit to having the
FAQ file present on news servers.

Lee{*filter*}ey



Mon, 23 Apr 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Complaints

Quote:
>There are some folks who use "e-mail only", such as those who make use
>of services like JUNO.  Admittedly they are few and far between.

But are there any on the APL mailing list? The list owner can review the
subscriber list and see if any exist. However, on the lists I own I once
checked and most, but not all, of the Juno subscribers also had regular
accounts.

Quote:
>However I recommend continuing the one mailing of APL-FAQ each month
>for the above reason and because there is a benefit to having the
>FAQ file present on news servers.

I'm not sure what the benefit is having it on news servers. Above we are
discussing the advantage of mailing it via the gatewayed list to Juno
subscribers. There is an advantage to having pointers to the web locations
of the FAQ on the news servers.

Also people should remember that if it grows much more then Juno people
won't receive it. Juno doesn't deliver any messages to its users that are
over 60K.

Don (at panix com).



Tue, 24 Apr 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Complaints

Quote:

>>There are some folks who use "e-mail only", such as those who make use
>>of services like JUNO.  Admittedly they are few and far between.

>But are there any on the APL mailing list? The list owner can review the
>subscriber list and see if any exist. However, on the lists I own I once
>checked and most, but not all, of the Juno subscribers also had regular
>accounts.

But comp.lang.apl is not a mailing list.  It is a usenet newsgroup, and there
is no way to know who is reading it or whith what software or from what
accounts.  Ther is a mailing list which is gated to c.l.a. on which digests of
the content here appear, and postings to which are copied to the newsgroup.
But the newsgroup proper has no moderator or owner.  It is available on any of
tens of thousands of news servers wich carry the comp.lang.* sub-hierarchy.

                 -David E. Siegel



Tue, 24 Apr 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Complaints

Quote:
>>But are there any on the APL mailing list? The list owner can review the
>>subscriber list and see if any exist. However, on the lists I own I once
>>checked and most, but not all, of the Juno subscribers also had regular
>>accounts.

>But comp.lang.apl is not a mailing list.

I am fully aware of the distinction. As co-owner of about a dozen mailing
lists I know exactly how they work, or at least how ones using Listserv(R)
software work.

Quote:
> It is a usenet newsgroup, and there
>is no way to know who is reading it or whith what software or from what
>accounts.  Ther is a mailing list which is gated to c.l.a.

That is what I am talking about. I do not know the list's name. That is why
I referred to it as "the APL mailing list". This list has to have an owner.

Quote:
>on which digests of
>the content here appear, and postings to which are copied to the newsgroup.

If they are daily digests then many will be over 60K and there can't be any
Juno subscribers getting much. Most mailing lists give the subscriber the
option of getting individual e-mails, or a digest. Also when running
Listserv software the owner can set a maximum number of lines, at which
point it kicks out a special digest.

Quote:
>But the newsgroup proper has no moderator or owner.  It is available on any of
>tens of thousands of news servers wich carry the comp.lang.* sub-hierarchy.

I realize that. But Juno does not provide newsgroup access,and we are
discussing Juno people getting the FAQ. I would expect almost all people
that have newsgroup access have web access. The exceptions would be if this
newsgroup is gated to some BBS system, and people are just dialing in to a
BBS.

Don (at panix com).



Wed, 25 Apr 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Complaints

I've been pretty busy with the ds1 launch and haven't had much spare
time, so I haven't followed all of this thread.  

The faq is posted automatically about every month by the mit auto
poster. I think this is a nice feature as

1. The news group seems an appropriate place to post it to me, someone
   new might catch it here first. It really is intended to answer
   questions people often ask.

2. It pops up regularly in the newsgroup where people see it, find
   mistakes/out of date information, and send me mail so I can fix
   it. I haven't kept careful track, but seem to get corrections soon
   after a posting. This makes it easy for me to maintain (I'm not
   paid for this).

3. The autoposter also puts it in rtfm at mit and some mirrors, it's
   automatically converted to html by someplace in ... (see the faq)

4. It seems to me that most people like it.

That said, there's nothing magic about monthly, could be every two
months, which would save half the bw, or even less frequently if
people are suffering. This seems a bit odd to me as comp.lang.apl
seems small by my standards (say the tex newsgroup, or Linux with it's
faqs of faqs, or even freebsd).

I'll look for some sort of consensus from the group.

--
Sam Sirlin



Sat, 05 May 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Complaints
Since you asked, I think of FAQs as wonderful things that are
`available' to me, when I need them.

I don't think of them as `things that are shoved at me'.

I actually can't imagine ever `reading' a FAQ *because* it was sent to
me. It would never, except in the most improbable of circumstances,
arrive when I had a question. And I have enough to do, so I don't think
I'd be likely to say `Oh, here's a FAQ. I guess I need something
to entertain me, so I guess I'll read it'.

Of course, the traffic rate in c.l.a is so low that in this particular
case the question is academic (in the bad sense of that word).

Quote:

> <snip>

> I'll look for some sort of consensus from the group.

> --
> Sam Sirlin




Sun, 06 May 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Complaints
It does make a lot of sense to place the FAQ here,
where the people most likely to need it can find it
easily and obtain it conveniently.  Beginners
aren't likely to know about the Waterloo site.

--- Brian



Sun, 06 May 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Complaints

Quote:

> The faq is posted automatically about every month by the mit auto
> poster. I think this is a nice feature as
> 1. The news group seems an appropriate place to post it to me, someone

1) I can't think of anyplace else it would occur to me to look for it
without some serious research.

2) The subject line says what it is.  You don't have to download it if
you're not interested.

Personaly, I occasionally download it and save it in case it has changed
or in case I wish to look something up.

In summary, IMO, keep it where it is.

Ted



Sun, 06 May 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Complaints
Sam Sirlin wrote regarding the APL FAQ:

Quote:
> That said, there's nothing magic about monthly, could be every two
> months, which would save half the bw, or even less frequently if
> people are suffering. This seems a bit odd to me as comp.lang.apl
> seems small by my standards (say the tex newsgroup, or Linux with it's
> faqs of faqs, or even freebsd).

I suspect the FAQ accounts for a significant percentage of traffic on
c.l.a, especially now that most of the J discussion seems to have
moved to the J mailing list.  I'd rather not eliminate or reduce it and
then find out that c.l.a has become so low-traffic as to be considered
expendable by the Netgods.  Having a regularly-posted FAQ is not
extravagant by Usenet standards, and it adds a bit of credibility to
the group.

Quote:

> 2) The subject line says what it is.  You don't have to download it if
> you're not interested.

The only time I find the FAQ annoying (and it's only a minor nuisance)
is when it arrives mixed in with the nightly batch of APL-L messages.  
(The mailing list that mirrors comp.lang.apl.)  You have to scroll
through the FAQ to find any postings that follow it.  This could be
prevented by including the phrase "[No Gate]" in the subject line for
the FAQ.  

One useful enhancement would be a monthly posting giving the difference
listing of changes to the FAQ.  This should be posted without [No Gate].

                                                Jim



Sun, 06 May 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Complaints

Quote:
>I've been pretty busy with the ds1 launch and haven't had much spare
>time, so I haven't followed all of this thread.  

>The faq is posted automatically about every month by the mit auto
>poster. I think this is a nice feature as

>1. The news group seems an appropriate place to post it to me, someone
>   new might catch it here first. It really is intended to answer
>   questions people often ask.

>2. It pops up regularly in the newsgroup where people see it, find
>   mistakes/out of date information, and send me mail so I can fix
>   it. I haven't kept careful track, but seem to get corrections soon
>   after a posting. This makes it easy for me to maintain (I'm not
>   paid for this).

>3. The autoposter also puts it in rtfm at mit and some mirrors, it's
>   automatically converted to html by someplace in ... (see the faq)

>4. It seems to me that most people like it.

>That said, there's nothing magic about monthly, could be every two
>months, which would save half the bw, or even less frequently if
>people are suffering. This seems a bit odd to me as comp.lang.apl
>seems small by my standards (say the tex newsgroup, or Linux with it's
>faqs of faqs, or even freebsd).

>I'll look for some sort of consensus from the group.

>--
>Sam Sirlin


Please note the way in which this thread started.  I complained aboput a binary
posting, citing as one of the reasons the bandwidth that binaries take up.  

Other people pointed out that the FAQ takes up roughly as much room as the
particular binary in question, and said or implied that if I wasn't complaining
about the FAQ I shouldn't complain about the binary either.  Yet others
suggested that binary posts (or msgs to the mailing list) might be welcome for
some purposes, a binary version of the FAQ being amoug them.

I don't think that anyone has seriously suggested (as opposed to a reducto ad
absurdum argument) that the posting of the FAQ be dropped. I surely have not.
While the FAQ could be split intop smaller pieces, I for one see no compelling
reason to do so.

Some people have suggested a "changes" or "recent alterations to the FAQ"
posing, perhaps once a month.  This would be nice, but hardly needed IMO.  Jim
Weigang suggested this and keeping the complete FAQ off the mailing list with a
tag in the subject.  This might be a good idea, or perhaps it would only go to
the mailing list once a month, or some such.

But the way the FAQ is now posted is just fine with me, and I see no compelling
reason for any changes.

Thanks very much for your work in maintaining and posting the FAQ here.

[Posted & emailed]

                 -David E. Siegel



Mon, 07 May 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Complaints
Keep posting the FAQ! As others have mentioned, c.l.a. is probably the first
place people interested in APL will look for info. As far as bandwidth goes,
the space taken up by this document is not significant. What DOES need
attention, is better screening to remove all the junk that has no place in this
group, namely, the "get rich quick" schemes and {*filter*}o promotion websites.


Quote:
> However, the FAQ was designed when WWW was not available, I guess. Maybe it
> is a good idea to make them available now as a web site. No posting, much
> more attractive, easier to use...

> If Sam is listening he may give us his point of view.

> Kai Jaeger



Mon, 07 May 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 
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