Dyalog vs Norton Anti-virus 
Author Message
 Dyalog vs Norton Anti-virus

Hi,

I am an APL consultant at a large British Insurance company.

Last week, after several of it's sites had been hit by the Nimba virus/worm,
the IT department forcibly installed the latest (Corporate edition)of Norton
Anti-virus software on all networked PC's.

Since then many exclusive file ties ([]FTIE) under Dyalog APL/W have failed.
(Also some users report that renaming and moving files, previously opened
under Dyalog, via Windows Explorer fail with "File in use" type messages.)

As I am "not allowed" to modify/remove the Anti-virus software, I am unable
to prove that the problem is caused by the Norton software by simply turning
it off and on.

Has any one else had similar problems with Norton and Dyalog (or other
software)?

I have reported this to Dyadic (John Scholes), who did not think they had
been told of this problem before.

Thanks

Ray



Wed, 17 Mar 2004 20:19:28 GMT  
 Dyalog vs Norton Anti-virus
Hi Ray!

All my experience indicates that Dyalog APL behaves "just like any other
application" when handling files.

But:

1) APL applications often share files between many users. Most other systems
have moved to using "Client/Server" database managers (SQL Databases) to
achieve this. Unfortunately, this means that our use of files is becoming
"atypical", and the number of bugs related to this mode of operation is
slowly increasing because the O/S vendors seem to place less emphasis on
this. Anti-virus software may also be configured to react to this kind of
"atypical" behaviour.

2) Related to the above, APL applications often lock files as part of
multi-user ops, and there are numerous bugs in both Novell and MS networking
software, which can cause locks and subsequently data changes to be lost.

3) Data written by APL applications is often "Binary" (as opposed to plain
text), and some Anti-Virus applications are configured to decide that
writing binary data to a file is "virus-like" behaviour.

However, "fundamentally", Dyalog APL is just another application which uses
files according to "the book" (if this means anything when using
Microsoftware :-). The usual strategy when faced with this sort of IT
opposition is first to duplicate the problem using native files, opening
files in the same share mode. When you are able to duplicate the problem
this way, write a simple C application which also duplicates the problem,
and at this point it is usually possible to get through to them. Rather
time- and resource-consuming, of course.

May the Force be With You / Morten

P.S. I find it hard very hard to believe that files "which have been opened
under Dyalog" are subsequently more prone to errors. I think this must be
"accidental".

Quote:

>Hi,

>I am an APL consultant at a large British Insurance company.

>Last week, after several of it's sites had been hit by the Nimba
virus/worm,
>the IT department forcibly installed the latest (Corporate edition)of
Norton
>Anti-virus software on all networked PC's.

>Since then many exclusive file ties ([]FTIE) under Dyalog APL/W have
failed.
>(Also some users report that renaming and moving files, previously opened
>under Dyalog, via Windows Explorer fail with "File in use" type messages.)

>As I am "not allowed" to modify/remove the Anti-virus software, I am unable
>to prove that the problem is caused by the Norton software by simply
turning
>it off and on.

>Has any one else had similar problems with Norton and Dyalog (or other
>software)?

>I have reported this to Dyadic (John Scholes), who did not think they had
>been told of this problem before.

>Thanks

>Ray



Wed, 17 Mar 2004 22:03:25 GMT  
 Dyalog vs Norton Anti-virus
Hi,
If Norton anti virus (or any other application) opens
file in read and write mode, any other application
will be unable to write something to that file.
When anti virus opens file it looks like:
- It opens any file in read and write mode
or
- It tries to remove something from the file.
or
- It tries to prohibit access to that file.

Any anti viruses have some features:
- to check files of special types
- what to do with infected files (report, cure, do not
allow access to the file)

Propositions:
1. Remove .dcf file from the list of the files been
checked by Norton anti virus.
2. Change settings that are responsible for action (in
case virus is found).
3. Send you files to the Norton anti virus team, so
they will be able to change there software.

Regards,
Alexander


Quote:
> Hi Ray!

> All my experience indicates that Dyalog APL behaves
> "just like any other
> application" when handling files.

> But:

> 1) APL applications often share files between many
> users. Most other systems
> have moved to using "Client/Server" database
> managers (SQL Databases) to
> achieve this. Unfortunately, this means that our use
> of files is becoming
> "atypical", and the number of bugs related to this
> mode of operation is
> slowly increasing because the O/S vendors seem to
> place less emphasis on
> this. Anti-virus software may also be configured to
> react to this kind of
> "atypical" behaviour.

> 2) Related to the above, APL applications often lock
> files as part of
> multi-user ops, and there are numerous bugs in both
> Novell and MS networking
> software, which can cause locks and subsequently
> data changes to be lost.

> 3) Data written by APL applications is often
> "Binary" (as opposed to plain
> text), and some Anti-Virus applications are
> configured to decide that
> writing binary data to a file is "virus-like"
> behaviour.

> However, "fundamentally", Dyalog APL is just another
> application which uses
> files according to "the book" (if this means
> anything when using
> Microsoftware :-). The usual strategy when faced
> with this sort of IT
> opposition is first to duplicate the problem using
> native files, opening
> files in the same share mode. When you are able to
> duplicate the problem
> this way, write a simple C application which also
> duplicates the problem,
> and at this point it is usually possible to get
> through to them. Rather
> time- and resource-consuming, of course.

> May the Force be With You / Morten

> P.S. I find it hard very hard to believe that files
> "which have been opened
> under Dyalog" are subsequently more prone to errors.
> I think this must be
> "accidental".


> >Hi,

> >I am an APL consultant at a large British Insurance
> company.

> >Last week, after several of it's sites had been hit
> by the Nimba
> virus/worm,
> >the IT department forcibly installed the latest
> (Corporate edition)of
> Norton
> >Anti-virus software on all networked PC's.

> >Since then many exclusive file ties ([]FTIE) under
> Dyalog APL/W have
> failed.
> >(Also some users report that renaming and moving
> files, previously opened
> >under Dyalog, via Windows Explorer fail with "File
> in use" type messages.)

> >As I am "not allowed" to modify/remove the
> Anti-virus software, I am unable
> >to prove that the problem is caused by the Norton
> software by simply
> turning
> >it off and on.

> >Has any one else had similar problems with Norton
> and Dyalog (or other
> >software)?

> >I have reported this to Dyadic (John Scholes), who
> did not think they had
> >been told of this problem before.

> >Thanks

> >Ray

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Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:18:30 GMT  
 Dyalog vs Norton Anti-virus
Thanks Morten and Alexander for your responses.


<snip>

Quote:
> Propositions:
> 1. Remove .dcf file from the list of the files been
> checked by Norton anti virus.
> 2. Change settings that are responsible for action (in
> case virus is found).

Unfortunatly I do not have the access/authority to be able to modify the
anti-virus settings. What I am after is some evidence that I can present to
the "IT Department" to convince them that the current settings are the cause
of the problems.

Quote:
> 3. Send you files to the Norton anti virus team, so
> they will be able to change there software.

OK in the long run, may-be, but the combined (Norton & IT depatment)
"turn-around time" to make the changes will be at least in the order of
weeks if not months, certanly not days or hours.

However since my origional posting the stakes have been raised. Following
the introduction of Norton AV at one of our sites, a major production system
has stopped working. The site manager does have the "clout" get the settings
changed quickly.

FYI Attachmate's EXTRA (PC to Mainframe software) MACROS have also stopped
working with Norton AV installed.

Ray



Sat, 20 Mar 2004 08:57:04 GMT  
 Dyalog vs Norton Anti-virus
Have you tried contacting Symantec about the problem?
You'd probably get better response if Peter Norton
were still in charge of his product but it may be
worth a try anyway.

I once had a similar problem with Norton: a
mean-variance optimization we were running triggered
a virus warning and stopped the run.  I suspected
that the bit pattern of an intermediate file was
matching that of a "known virus", so I shortened
the inputs to the optimization by the least
significant digit, thus slightly changing these
intermediate values, and it ran without a problem
after that.

Fortunately, I had the luxury of knowing that
the results of the optimization were not sensitive
to such a small change.  However, this points out
that problems like Ray's may become increasingly
commmon.  (Though his specific problem sounds
more like a hit from a "forbidden operation" than
a false signature match.)

The number of false positives from anti-viral
software is a function of the number of different
signatures for which the software looks and the
number of different (possibly intermediate)
results "good" software will produce.  The size of
both of these inputs will increase over time.

What's more, at first glance, it appears that
the chance of false positives may be a sort of
"birthday problem".  (The birthday problem is
the non-intuitive result that there's about
a 50% chance that 2, out of a random group of
25 or 26, people will share a common birthday.)
If this is true, it means that the chance of accidental
collision increases as the square of the number of items
being checked.

Good luck,

Devon H. McCormick, CFA


Quote:

> Thanks Morten and Alexander for your responses.



> <snip>
> > Propositions:
> > 1. Remove .dcf file from the list of the files been
> > checked by Norton anti virus.
> > 2. Change settings that are responsible for action (in
> > case virus is found).

> Unfortunatly I do not have the access/authority to be able to
> modify the
> anti-virus settings. What I am after is some evidence that I
> can present to
> the "IT Department" to convince them that the current
> settings are the cause
> of the problems.

> > 3. Send you files to the Norton anti virus team, so
> > they will be able to change there software.

> OK in the long run, may-be, but the combined (Norton & IT
> depatment)
> "turn-around time" to make the changes will be at least in
> the order of
> weeks if not months, certanly not days or hours.

> However since my origional posting the stakes have been
> raised. Following
> the introduction of Norton AV at one of our sites, a major
> production system
> has stopped working. The site manager does have the "clout"
> get the settings
> changed quickly.

> FYI Attachmate's EXTRA (PC to Mainframe software) MACROS have
> also stopped
> working with Norton AV installed.

> Ray

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
http://phone.yahoo.com


Sat, 20 Mar 2004 22:37:25 GMT  
 
 [ 5 post ] 

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