APL & Microsoft VS.NET 
Author Message
 APL & Microsoft VS.NET

I heard at one time that an APL compiler is being built for
Microsoft's Visual Studio.Net. Does anyone have any, or know where I
could find, more informationm on this? Such as who will doing the APL
implementation? Thank you for any information.


Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:40:42 GMT  
 APL & Microsoft VS.NET
http://www.dyadic.com


Quote:
> I heard at one time that an APL compiler is being built for
> Microsoft's Visual Studio.Net. Does anyone have any, or know where I
> could find, more informationm on this? Such as who will doing the APL
> implementation? Thank you for any information.



Wed, 14 Jul 2004 03:23:57 GMT  
 APL & Microsoft VS.NET

Quote:

> I heard at one time that an APL compiler is being built for
> Microsoft's Visual Studio.Net. Does anyone have any, or know where I
> could find, more informationm on this? Such as who will doing the APL
> implementation? Thank you for any information.

Well, MS astroturfers have been spamming _everywhere_
with reports of MS .NET supporting this, that and the other - it seems MS
marketroids are under standing orders to say "yes" if anyone asks them
"Does .net do such-and-such?" - so take _anything_ you hear about .net with
a pinch of salt.   There's no technical reason why there couldn't be an APL
port to .NET, but the saxon APL implementation already integrates
with the Java VM very well - and .net is just java-warmed-over, but plus
the MS marketing machine and minus sun's engineering competence,
so why bother with .net at all?

--
Don't eat yellow snow.



Wed, 14 Jul 2004 05:09:43 GMT  
 APL & Microsoft VS.NET

Quote:
> > I heard at one time that an APL compiler is being built for
> > Microsoft's Visual Studio.Net. Does anyone have any, or know where I
> > could find, more informationm on this? Such as who will doing the APL
> > implementation? Thank you for any information.

> Well, MS astroturfers have been spamming _everywhere_
> with reports of MS .NET supporting this, that and the other - it seems MS
> marketroids are under standing orders to say "yes" if anyone asks them
> "Does .net do such-and-such?" - so take _anything_ you hear about .net
with
> a pinch of salt.   There's no technical reason why there couldn't be an
APL
> port to .NET, but the saxon APL implementation already integrates

It would appear that you don't know anything about the subject, so why do
you bother replying? Mr. Hoarvi and I have already posted the relevant link:
http://www.dyadic.com/ Please note that it isn't just vaporware.

Quote:
> with the Java VM very well - and .net is just java-warmed-over, but plus
> the MS marketing machine and minus sun's engineering competence,

also minus Sun's uncompared arrogance

Quote:
> so why bother with .net at all?

Plenty of good reasons. But I don't think I'd be able to show them to
somebody with an a-priori rejection of the subject.
--
    WildHeart'2k2 (at Home)


Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:55:03 GMT  
 APL & Microsoft VS.NET
I wrote APEX, an APL high-performance compiler for Linux/Unix, a few
years back, but
never had enough self-loathing to port it to Windoze -- it's too bad
that Bill(tm) doesn't believe in POSIX.
You can read about APEX at www.snakeisland.com. The MSc thesis you'll
find there
has the most detailed info on performance, design issues, etc.

If you're really interested, contact me via email, as I'm about to
enter into significant improvements on the back end and dataflow
analysis parts of the compiler, and funding for that work
would be greatly appreciated. With sufficient funding, I could
even self-loathe.

Bob

Quote:

> I heard at one time that an APL compiler is being built for
> Microsoft's Visual Studio.Net. Does anyone have any, or know where I
> could find, more informationm on this? Such as who will doing the APL
> implementation? Thank you for any information.

--
Robert Bernecky                  Snake Island Research Inc.

+1 416 203 0854                  Toronto, Ontario M5J 2B9 Canada
http://www.snakeisland.com


Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:31:19 GMT  
 APL & Microsoft VS.NET

Quote:

> It would appear that you don't know anything about the subject, so why do
> you bother replying? Mr. Hoarvi and I have already posted the relevant
> link: http://www.dyadic.com/ Please note that it isn't just vaporware.

It was intended as a general warning against MS's covert propoganda
approach - as I said, and as your link proves, there's no particular
technical reason why APL, or indeed any language cannot work on the .net
clr VM once someone's bothered their arse porting it - but: believing
anything that comes out of the mouth of MS marketing is dangerous,
and by using .net you're just furthering MS's (and probably the
scientologists they're in league with) plans for world-domination.

Quote:
> also minus Sun's uncompared arrogance

WTF ?!?!?  MS are almost infinitely more arrogant than Sun.  For god's sake,
MS FAKED EVIDENCE in the courtroom, apparently confident they could get
away with it - if mere mortals did that, they'd be slammed in gaol...  
That's pretty arrogant...

--
Don't eat yellow snow.



Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:40:06 GMT  
 APL & Microsoft VS.NET

Quote:

>...
> It would appear that you don't know anything about the subject, so why do
> you bother replying? Mr. Hoarvi and I have already posted the relevant link:
> http://www.*-*-*.com/ 't just vaporware.

>>with the Java VM very well - and .net is just java-warmed-over, but plus
>>the MS marketing machine and minus sun's engineering competence,

> also minus Sun's uncompared arrogance

Now, now Stefano, this is uncalled for. Truth is, Sun's OS is miles
better than anything Mickeysoft have ever produced, as is virtually
every other OS. However, this doesn't mean that we should get all
insulting about Mr Gates now, does it? We don't have to: we just s{*filter*}
  at those who are duped into buying XP...

Have you looked at Mac OS X yet? It's so {*filter*}y cool...

Quote:

>>so why bother with .net at all?

> Plenty of good reasons. But I don't think I'd be able to show them to
> somebody with an a-priori rejection of the subject.

I'm sure the same could be said for ONE and your attitude to it.

Anyway, in response to Mr Golden's comments, IMHO Dyadic Systems produce
one of the best APL interpreters around. However, a few years ago they
moved their main development efforts from UNIX to Windows (for very good
financial reasons). Now they are getting into bed with Mickeysoft on
producing an APL for .NET. While I hope it goes well for them, Icannot
feeling a little concern. The Gates empire does not have a history of
being good to/for smaller companies it has worked with in the past...

--
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GO/! d- s++:+ a+ C++(++++) US+++$ P+++ L++ E--- W++ N++ w--- O- V- PS+
PE+ Y+ PGP- t+ 5++ X R* tv+ b+ DI++ D G e(*) h++/-- r+++ y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

-----------------------------------------------------
Bob Hoekstra:   APL & Unix Consultant
Tele:           +44 (0)1483 771028
                  http://www.*-*-*.com/

-----------------------------------------------------



Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:09:49 GMT  
 APL & Microsoft VS.NET
Dyalog APL, from Dyadic Systems, is a .NET supported
interpreter.  You can find out more at
http://www.dyadic.com.


Quote:

> I heard at one time that an APL compiler is being built for
> Microsoft's Visual Studio.Net. Does anyone have any, or know
> where I
> could find, more informationm on this? Such as who will doing
> the APL
> implementation? Thank you for any information.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
http://auctions.yahoo.com


Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:22:41 GMT  
 APL & Microsoft VS.NET

Quote:
> I heard at one time that an APL compiler is being built for
> Microsoft's Visual Studio.Net. Does anyone have any, or know where I
> could find, more informationm on this? Such as who will doing the APL
> implementation? Thank you for any information.

Not exactly a compiler in the strict sense of the term, and the
integration in VS.NET is only going to be partial, at least for the
first release. More info on http://www.dyadic.com/

--

Homepage: currently offline

<<<"Light is faster than sound, which is why  ---
   some folks appear bright before they speak." -*- says Darkfrog...>>>



Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:24:02 GMT  
 APL & Microsoft VS.NET

Quote:
> >>with the Java VM very well - and .net is just java-warmed-over, but
> >>plus the MS marketing machine and minus sun's engineering
> competence,

> > also minus Sun's uncompared arrogance

> Now, now Stefano, this is uncalled for. Truth is, Sun's OS is

Uncalled for, maybe. Nevertheless true. I've been following Sun's
attitude since the first days of Java, and I've seen a lot to complain
about...

Quote:
> miles better than anything Mickeysoft have ever produced, as is
> virtually every other OS.

I will have to disagree here. But you know me :)

Quote:
> However, this doesn't mean that
> we should get all insulting about Mr Gates now, does it? We
> don't have to: we just s{*filter*}
>   at those who are duped into buying XP...

> Have you looked at Mac OS X yet? It's so {*filter*}y cool...

What is exactly so cool about it? I have very mixed feelings... Big and
colourful icons (which is exactly what looks cool about XP, or, to be
more precise, its Luna GUI front-end) is not necessarily good. The Unix
core behind Mac OS X is a double-edged sword...

Quote:
> >>so why bother with .net at all?

> > Plenty of good reasons. But I don't think I'd be able to
> show them to
> > somebody with an a-priori rejection of the subject.

> I'm sure the same could be said for ONE and your attitude to it.

This is uncalled for ;)
I have spent a LOT of time studying .NET and, before that, Java. And I
have made my own opinions, based on knowledge, possibly not as deep as I
would like it to be, nevertheless knowledge. Let's take a random
example: Microsoft's MTS existed years before Sun's EJB. Java/Sun fans
would still call EJB a revolution in computing, maybe with the
acknowledgement that Sun brought to real life Microsoft's "pitiful"
implementation. Yet, when Microsoft takes over all the good ideas behind
Java, tries (really hard) to give them a much broader scope, basing the
research on the technological success of Java, people would still say
Microsoft is only copying. This kind of attitude tends to tick me off...

--

Homepage: currently offline

<<<All I Ever Learned, I Learned From Anime: ---
   You can really jump 20 feet into the air.>>>



Sat, 17 Jul 2004 05:24:34 GMT  
 APL & Microsoft VS.NET
I find myself unable to judge whether Scott McNealy is more arrogant
than Bill Gates (and what about Larry Ellison ?). However, I have to
agree with Stefano that the statement

"the saxon APL implementation already integrates with the Java VM very
well - and .net is just java-warmed-over"

... is pretty clear evidence that the author knows next to nothing
little about (either side) of the subject. He clearly would not touch
anything from MS with a barge pole, and can't spell the name of the
product he claims provides everything that .Net does, plus more!
Considering the inflammatory nature of his posting, I think it is fair
to declare "open season" on Mr. Golden :-)

Assuming that we are talking about the SAX interface to Java (a fine
product, as far as I know, which serves many of Solitons customers very
well), this cannot be compared to a product fully integrated with the
.NET framework. While I would agree that MS is a company with
questionable morals, it remains a *FACT* that they have done more to
standardise cross-tool development than anyone else (OK, so they were
motivated by profit and perhaps even by Bills megalomania, but that does
not make it less effective)!

Although there is much hype out there, it does appear that .Net is going
to be another major milestone in terms of allowing shared data and
software componentry between all programmers, whether they use APL,
BASIC, COBOL (believe it or not), LISP, C# or a dozen or more other
languages, vendors of which Microsoft has invited to participate. DotNet
enforces and provides standardisation of data types, object classes
across the entire software development community. Dyadic is interfacing
to it in such a way that "mere mortal" APL developers will be able to
benefit from the same standard libraries as are used by other
developers, in a way which is natural to us. It should make our lives
much easier, and make it possible to develop web applications in more or
less the same way as we develop GUI applications today - with more tools
available.

In my opinion, Dyadics work on .Net integration is one of the most
promising pieces of work done by any APL vendor in the last decade, as
far as furthering the use of APL in new environments is concerned. It
has reinforced my belief that I will be still be using APL for at least
as long a time as that which has passed since Ken gave it to us!

/ Morten

Quote:
-----Original Message-----

Sent: 28. januar 2002 07:23

Subject: Re: APL & Microsoft VS.NET



> It would appear that you don't know anything about the subject, so why
do
> you bother replying? Mr. Hoarvi and I have already posted the relevant
> link: http://www.dyadic.com/ Please note that it isn't just vaporware.

It was intended as a general warning against MS's covert propoganda
approach - as I said, and as your link proves, there's no particular
technical reason why APL, or indeed any language cannot work on the .net
clr VM once someone's bothered their arse porting it - but: believing
anything that comes out of the mouth of MS marketing is dangerous,
and by using .net you're just furthering MS's (and probably the
scientologists they're in league with) plans for world-domination.

> also minus Sun's uncompared arrogance

WTF ?!?!?  MS are almost infinitely more arrogant than Sun.  For god's
sake,
MS FAKED EVIDENCE in the courtroom, apparently confident they could get
away with it - if mere mortals did that, they'd be slammed in gaol...
That's pretty arrogant...

--
Don't eat yellow snow.



Sat, 17 Jul 2004 06:10:18 GMT  
 APL & Microsoft VS.NET

Quote:

>...

>>Have you looked at Mac OS X yet? It's so {*filter*}y cool...

> What is exactly so cool about it? I have very mixed feelings... Big and
> colourful icons (which is exactly what looks cool about XP, or, to be
> more precise, its Luna GUI front-end) is not necessarily good. The Unix
> core behind Mac OS X is a double-edged sword...

I happen to like UNIX. But there we go.

Quote:
>...
> I have spent a LOT of time studying .NET and, before that, Java. And I
> have made my own opinions, based on knowledge, possibly not as deep as I
> would like it to be, nevertheless knowledge. Let's take a random
> example: Microsoft's MTS existed years before Sun's EJB. Java/Sun fans
> would still call EJB a revolution in computing, maybe with the
> acknowledgement that Sun brought to real life Microsoft's "pitiful"
> implementation. Yet, when Microsoft takes over all the good ideas behind
> Java, tries (really hard) to give them a much broader scope, basing the
> research on the technological success of Java, people would still say
> Microsoft is only copying. This kind of attitude tends to tick me off...

I'm afraid that you clearly have your facts wrong here. Microsoft's
implementation of Java was a platform-specific one. This was against the
Java licence. Sun asked them to correct the situation several times.
Then Sun took them to court and won the case. MS was in clear and
flagrant breach of the licence, Sun sued, MS had to stop using the name
Java, so they used another name. This is history and everyone clearly
understood this at the time, including BG.

Next there was the court case(s) regarding their abuse of monopolistic
power. Standard Oil got broken up for far less. AT&T did also. IBM only
survived by the skin of its teeth. MS, despite that fact that its record
was far worse than the others (not only was its monopoly in some
respects even greater, but they were found to have actively abused it on
several counts) gets little more than a slap on the wrists. Even then
they have the gall to fight against the judgement, suggesting that they
should be penalised by giving MS software free to schools!!!!!!! And,
instead of throwing every MS employee above teaboy/girl into jail for
contempt of court, they are actually taken seriously!

While you may admire this company, IMHO they have produced very little
of real value to the computing community since their Basic interpreters
of the late 70s/early 80's (I do like Excel though). Since then they
have concentrated on buying what BG calls "innovations" from other
companies (or bought the other companies). There are many instances of
shady dealings, but too be honest I suspect that many of the stories
I've heard were exaggerated by people who like MS even less than I do.

Lastly, you will note that most of my earlier comments relate to the OS.
This is because I believe strongly that an OS for running critical
systems on should be stable. This means your web servers should not need
a weekly reboot. And before you say it, I also speak from knowledge: at
home I currently run Debian Gnu/Linux and Solaris 2.6, 7 and 8 on SPARC,
  FreeBSD, Mandrake Linux, W2k, W98 and W95 on Intel machines. Would you
like to guess which machines suffer from memory leaks? Which ones are
regularly rebooted? Which ones I have to put a UPS on because they get
screwed when I have a power failure?

Stefano, Morten, and all the other lovers of .NET and any/all things
Microsoft: you can keep it. I'll stick to hardware that outlasts just
about anything else on the market, an OS that doesn't need a reboot for
at least 2 years, a web server that has fewer holes than Swiss cheese
and a total package that doesn't force me to have the overhead of a
windowing system on my file server. This allows me to spend my spare
time drinking a beer safe in the knowledge that my firewall is up, my
servers running, my desktop stable, and all is well with the world.

Quote:

> --

> Homepage: currently offline

> <<<All I Ever Learned, I Learned From Anime: ---
>    You can really jump 20 feet into the air.>>>

--
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GO/! d- s++:+ a+ C++(++++) US+++$ P+++ L++ E--- W++ N++ w--- O- V- PS+
PE+ Y+ PGP- t+ 5++ X R* tv+ b+ DI++ D G e(*) h++/-- r+++ y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

-----------------------------------------------------
Bob Hoekstra:   APL & Unix Consultant
Tele:           +44 (0)1483 771028
                  http://www.*-*-*.com/

-----------------------------------------------------



Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:26:21 GMT  
 APL & Microsoft VS.NET

Quote:

> Let's take a random example: Microsoft's MTS existed years before
> Sun's EJB.

"Years?"  That seems high.

And it's not as if it was a new concept, in the slightest.  Vendors
like IBM, BEA and Orbix have been selling transaction managers for
_years_.
--

http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/languages.html
"[In 'Doctor' mode],  I spent a good ten minutes  telling Emacs what I
thought of it.   (The response was, 'Perhaps you could  try to be less
abusive.')"  -- Matt Welsh



Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:32:22 GMT  
 APL & Microsoft VS.NET
First of all thanks to all of you for your reponses.  

After reading the lively debate going on here I thought break in with
some additional information as to why I was asking about an APL VS.NET
implementation.  I am a programmer working in the Actuarial department
of a large Life Insurance company.  I personally have never written
any APL. I stick to VB, Java or C++, depending on the task.  Some of
the actuaries here, however, love APL.  VS.Net would allow me to
easliy re-use the code that our actuaries have written.  Their code
could then be easliy combined with GUI's & File IO routines written in
VB or C#.

As far as the whole MS vs. Sun vs. Oracle debate goes,  I think the
whole thing is ridiculous.  All three are huge companies whose primary
motivation is profit.   I think that Scott McNealy's & Larry Ellison's
public critcisms of MS are pathetic.  Both of them would love to have
MS's market share.

Quote:

> I find myself unable to judge whether Scott McNealy is more arrogant
> than Bill Gates (and what about Larry Ellison ?). However, I have to
> agree with Stefano that the statement

> "the saxon APL implementation already integrates with the Java VM very
> well - and .net is just java-warmed-over"

> ... is pretty clear evidence that the author knows next to nothing
> little about (either side) of the subject. He clearly would not touch
> anything from MS with a barge pole, and can't spell the name of the
> product he claims provides everything that .Net does, plus more!
> Considering the inflammatory nature of his posting, I think it is fair
> to declare "open season" on Mr. Golden :-)

> Assuming that we are talking about the SAX interface to Java (a fine
> product, as far as I know, which serves many of Solitons customers very
> well), this cannot be compared to a product fully integrated with the
> .NET framework. While I would agree that MS is a company with
> questionable morals, it remains a *FACT* that they have done more to
> standardise cross-tool development than anyone else (OK, so they were
> motivated by profit and perhaps even by Bills megalomania, but that does
> not make it less effective)!

> Although there is much hype out there, it does appear that .Net is going
> to be another major milestone in terms of allowing shared data and
> software componentry between all programmers, whether they use APL,
> BASIC, COBOL (believe it or not), LISP, C# or a dozen or more other
> languages, vendors of which Microsoft has invited to participate. DotNet
> enforces and provides standardisation of data types, object classes
> across the entire software development community. Dyadic is interfacing
> to it in such a way that "mere mortal" APL developers will be able to
> benefit from the same standard libraries as are used by other
> developers, in a way which is natural to us. It should make our lives
> much easier, and make it possible to develop web applications in more or
> less the same way as we develop GUI applications today - with more tools
> available.

> In my opinion, Dyadics work on .Net integration is one of the most
> promising pieces of work done by any APL vendor in the last decade, as
> far as furthering the use of APL in new environments is concerned. It
> has reinforced my belief that I will be still be using APL for at least
> as long a time as that which has passed since Ken gave it to us!
> \



Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:07:05 GMT  
 APL & Microsoft VS.NET
Bob Hoekstra wrote

Quote:
> Stefano, Morten, and all the other lovers of .NET and any/all things
> Microsoft: you can keep it. I'll stick to hardware that outlasts just
> about anything else on the market, an OS that doesn't need a reboot
for
> at least 2 years, a web server that has fewer holes than Swiss cheese
> and a total package that doesn't force me to have the overhead of a
> windowing system on my file server. This allows me to spend my spare
> time drinking a beer safe in the knowledge that my firewall is up, my
> servers running, my desktop stable, and all is well with the world.

Please don't count me among the "lovers of any/all things Microsoft"; I
don't think I said anything which could justify that. But as a software
developer who has spent a lot of time getting systems to work together
across many hardware and software platforms, I am very impressed with
.NET and the way Dyalog APL interfaces with it. I certainly believe it
is going to make a big difference to the way I write systems over the
next 2-3 years.

.NET does not contain many original ideas (if any). But a lot of ideas
which have matured over the last few years have been brought together in
a way which I can see that I can use. I don't need or want too many
original ideas at once, I'm trying to make a living by writing software
which people will want to pay to install on hundreds of machines
throughout a corporation.

/ Morten



Sat, 17 Jul 2004 23:56:54 GMT  
 
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