Windows XP: DOS death-knell? 
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 Windows XP: DOS death-knell?

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Since the two announced flavors of Windows-XP, which are intended to replace
both the current Windows-ME and 2000 lines, are based on an NT core, it
seems highly likely that many of the legacy DOS APL interpreters will no
longer work. I have been told, though I don't personally know, that the
reason APL*Plus II and APLDOS do not work reliably on NT (or 2000) is that
NT does not reliably support the Phar-lap standard for extended memory. I've
also been told that this is an acknowledged bug, but who knows what that
means.

I wonder if I'm the only one who still has legacy DOS apps out in the field?
I love APL+Win, but...the non-technical issues of conversion sometimes seem
more formidable than the technical ones. Sigh.
      Tom Atkins

      www.voxproxy.com

      Right Seat Software, Inc.
      1110 12th Street, Unit A, Golden, CO 80401 USA
      303/278-2244 Voice   303/278-6967 Fax

      Vox Proxy? Add-in for PowerPoint? Talking Animated Characters

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D210044216-30032001><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Since =
the two=20
announced flavors of Windows-XP, which are intended to replace both the =
current=20
Windows-ME and 2000 lines, are based on an NT core, it seems highly =
likely=20
that&nbsp;many of the legacy DOS APL interpreters will no longer work. I =
have=20
been told, though I don't personally know, that the reason APL*Plus II =
and=20
APLDOS do not work reliably on NT (or 2000) is that NT does not reliably =
support=20
the Phar-lap standard for extended memory. I've also been told that this =
is an=20
acknowledged bug, but who knows what that means.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D210044216-30032001><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D210044216-30032001><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I =
wonder if I'm the=20
only one who still has legacy DOS apps out in the field? I love APL+Win, =

but...the non-technical issues of conversion sometimes seem more =
formidable than=20
the technical ones. Sigh.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D210044216-30032001>
<DIV class=3DSection1>
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Wed, 17 Sep 2003 01:28:30 GMT  
 Windows XP: DOS death-knell?
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Tommy,

You have been told the truth, there is a big bug. We've been through =
this change. APL+DOS was never supported to run under  Windows NT. There =
is a product called QWIN that allows APL+DOS to run under Windows NT =
with APL+WIN. We are running an entire application for Barclays Bank =
written in APL+DOS in APL+WIN with QWIN.  NT doesn't like Phar-Lap code =
because the Phar-Lap code tries to access DOS memory directly  and NT =
won't allow that because it's not DOS, as I said in a previous post. If =
you need some help porting APL+Dos to APL+WIN please let me know.

Kindest regards,
Fred Honea

Quote:
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: tommyatkins=20

  Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 7:22 PM
  Subject: Windows XP: DOS death-knell?

  Since the two announced flavors of Windows-XP, which are intended to =
replace both the current Windows-ME and 2000 lines, are based on an NT =
core, it seems highly likely that many of the legacy DOS APL =
interpreters will no longer work. I have been told, though I don't =
personally know, that the reason APL*Plus II and APLDOS do not work =
reliably on NT (or 2000) is that NT does not reliably support the =
Phar-lap standard for extended memory. I've also been told that this is =
an acknowledged bug, but who knows what that means.

  I wonder if I'm the only one who still has legacy DOS apps out in the =
field? I love APL+Win, but...the non-technical issues of conversion =
sometimes seem more formidable than the technical ones. Sigh.
        Tom Atkins
      =20
        www.voxproxy.com

        Right Seat Software, Inc.
        1110 12th Street, Unit A, Golden, CO 80401 USA
        303/278-2244 Voice   303/278-6967 Fax
      =20
        Vox ProxyT Add-in for PowerPoint=AE Talking Animated Characters
      =20

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Tommy,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>You have been told the truth, there is a big bug. =
We've been=20
through this change. APL+DOS was never supported to run under&nbsp; =
Windows NT.=20
There is a product called QWIN that allows APL+DOS to run under Windows =
NT with=20
APL+WIN. We are running an entire application for Barclays Bank written =
in=20
APL+DOS&nbsp;in APL+WIN&nbsp;with QWIN.&nbsp; NT doesn't =
like&nbsp;Phar-Lap code=20
because the Phar-Lap code tries to access DOS memory directly&nbsp; and =
NT won't=20
allow that because it's not DOS, as I said in a previous post. If you =
need some=20
help&nbsp;porting APL+Dos to APL+WIN please let me know.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Kindest regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Fred Honea</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20

NT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20


  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =


  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 30, 2001 =
7:22=20
PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Windows XP: DOS=20
  death-knell?</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D210044216-30032001><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Since the two=20
  announced flavors of Windows-XP, which are intended to replace both =
the=20
  current Windows-ME and 2000 lines, are based on an NT core, it seems =
highly=20
  likely that&nbsp;many of the legacy DOS APL interpreters will no =
longer work.=20
  I have been told, though I don't personally know, that the reason =
APL*Plus II=20
  and APLDOS do not work reliably on NT (or 2000) is that NT does not =
reliably=20
  support the Phar-lap standard for extended memory. I've also been told =
that=20
  this is an acknowledged bug, but who knows what that=20
means.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D210044216-30032001><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D210044216-30032001><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I =
wonder if I'm=20
  the only one who still has legacy DOS apps out in the field? I love =
APL+Win,=20
  but...the non-technical issues of conversion sometimes seem more =
formidable=20
  than the technical ones. Sigh.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D210044216-30032001>
  <DIV class=3DSection1>
  <TABLE=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: gainsboro; WIDTH: 170.6pt; mso-cellspacing: .7pt; =
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Wed, 17 Sep 2003 02:05:47 GMT  
 Windows XP: DOS death-knell?

Quote:

> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

> ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0B903.4F4D99A0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
>         charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

> Since the two announced flavors of Windows-XP, which are intended to replace
> both the current Windows-ME and 2000 lines, are based on an NT core, it
> seems highly likely that many of the legacy DOS APL interpreters will no
> longer work. I have been told, though I don't personally know, that the
> reason APL*Plus II and APLDOS do not work reliably on NT (or 2000) is that
> NT does not reliably support the Phar-lap standard for extended memory. I've
> also been told that this is an acknowledged bug, but who knows what that
> means.

> I wonder if I'm the only one who still has legacy DOS apps out in the field?
> I love APL+Win, but...the non-technical issues of conversion sometimes seem
> more formidable than the technical ones. Sigh.
>       Tom Atkins

Whether XP will mark the death of DOS or DOS will mark the death of XP remains
to be seen. The world will, eventually, vote with its feet, but whether the
march
will be towards XP is very unclear. It would appear to me, perhaps naively, that

ME is a considerable dud, so I don't regard Microsoft as very sure-footed in its

role as `industry leader'. It could well be that the march is towards Unix---a
sort of
amusing alternative given how long it has been available, and how well Microsoft

has defended their territory by _exploiting_ Windows (pre-XP) relationship to
DOS.

Not that I think DOS has much life left. While I spend a great deal of time in
DOS-boxes, I don't rely much anymore on DOS-based services, other than the
disk structures which will surely survive in some form probably into the next
millennium. I suppose I spend half time working on command lines and the other
half pointing and clicking, and each type of interface has its place. I _would_
expect _some_ form of CLI to survive, and would turn to Unix _for sure_ if
Microsoft
doesn't supply an effective and decent one.

Since I moved my programming efforts from APL into J and K, I don't have much
to fear about code incompatibility, at least for this round. Also, I have been
startled by the quality of current day emulators---for example finding that all
of
the DOS code I have tried (including, BTW, the ancient APLs that I used to run
on DOS) seems to run just fine on my iPAQ (which has a StrongARM processor,
_not_ a member of the 80x86/Pentium family), so I am also optimistic that
executable code should survive---at some considerable sacrifice in efficiency,
of
course---into this next round of software as well.

Sidebar: Please use the standard ASCII when submitting NG messages. It is the
`standard' for most net newsgroups, including c.l.a



Wed, 17 Sep 2003 02:29:36 GMT  
 Windows XP: DOS death-knell?

Quote:

> Since the two announced flavors of Windows-XP, which are intended to replace
> both the current Windows-ME and 2000 lines, are based on an NT core, it
> seems highly likely that many of the legacy DOS APL interpreters will no
> longer work. I have been told, though I don't personally know, that the
> reason APL*Plus II and APLDOS do not work reliably on NT (or 2000) is that
> NT does not reliably support the Phar-lap standard for extended memory. I've
> also been told that this is an acknowledged bug, but who knows what that
> means.

The unix/wine project can run some dos sw under linux (and
others). Don't know if it supports the phar lap extender though.  

http://www.winehq.com

--
Sam Sirlin



Wed, 17 Sep 2003 02:15:02 GMT  
 Windows XP: DOS death-knell?


Quote:
> Since the two announced flavors of Windows-XP, which are intended to replace
> both the current Windows-ME and 2000 lines, are based on an NT core, it
> seems highly likely that many of the legacy DOS APL interpreters will no
> longer work. I have been told, though I don't personally know, that the
> reason APL*Plus II and APLDOS do not work reliably on NT (or 2000) is that
> NT does not reliably support the Phar-lap standard for extended memory. I've
> also been told that this is an acknowledged bug, but who knows what that
> means.

> I wonder if I'm the only one who still has legacy DOS apps out in the field?
> I love APL+Win, but...the non-technical issues of conversion sometimes seem
> more formidable than the technical ones. Sigh.
>       Tom Atkins

>       www.voxproxy.com

>       Right Seat Software, Inc.
>       1110 12th Street, Unit A, Golden, CO 80401 USA
>       303/278-2244 Voice   303/278-6967 Fax

>       Vox Proxy Add-in for PowerPoint? Talking Animated Characters

If you want to run DOS apps you can obtain a copy of the IBM Warp 4
operating system http://www.ibm.com/warp or its new cousin eComStation
http://www.ecomstation.com

Both these operating systems run DOS and 16 bit Win3.1 applications
without any problems. You can also obtain the OS/2 version of APL2
from IBM for something like $130
--
Lorne Sunley



Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:06:03 GMT  
 Windows XP: DOS death-knell?

Quote:

> If you want to run DOS apps you can obtain a copy of the IBM Warp 4
> operating system http://www.ibm.com/warp or its new cousin eComStation
> http://www.ecomstation.com

> Both these operating systems run DOS and 16 bit Win3.1 applications
> without any problems. You can also obtain the OS/2 version of APL2
> from IBM for something like $130
> --
> Lorne Sunley

Heavy sigh.  Just thinking about OS/2 makes me sad.  One of the best
things that never happened.  I was one of the first kernel level
application developers for it and think it the finest OS ever built.  I
also remember when it was more Windows compatible than Windows.  Just
shows to go you how little technical excellence means in the brass
knuckle world of marketing mayhem.

Bob
--

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                                             A. Einstein

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Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:14:11 GMT  
 Windows XP: DOS death-knell?
Quote:
> > longer work. I have been told, though I don't personally know, that the
> > reason APL*Plus II and APLDOS do not work reliably on NT (or 2000) is

that

I know for personal experience that while APL*Plus II certainly doesn't work
very well under NT 4.0, it does work rather well under 2000. I haven't
tested Whistler (XP) yet, but it's quite likely that, by the time XP is
close to release, my need for development in the DOS version will be close
to zilch.
--
    WildHeart'2k1



Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:20:08 GMT  
 Windows XP: DOS death-knell?

Quote:


> > If you want to run DOS apps you can obtain a copy of the IBM Warp 4
> > operating system http://www.ibm.com/warp or its new cousin eComStation
> > http://www.ecomstation.com
> > Both these operating systems run DOS and 16 bit Win3.1 applications
> > without any problems. You can also obtain the OS/2 version of APL2
> > from IBM for something like $130

I'm running Warp 4 and APL2 under it plus many other apps both old and
new.  I sympathise to some extent with folk who are stuck with Windoze
but "Nobody ever went broke by underestimating the taste of the American
public".

Quote:
> Heavy sigh.  Just thinking about OS/2 makes me sad.  One of the best
> things that never happened.  I was one of the first kernel level
> application developers for it and think it the finest OS ever built.  I
> also remember when it was more Windows compatible than Windows.  Just
> shows to go you how little technical excellence means in the brass
> knuckle world of marketing mayhem.

I have only two apps that I haven't been able to find OS/2 replacements
for, Paint Shop Pro and OziExplorer.  Suggestions anybody?

Ted



Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:54:11 GMT  
 Windows XP: DOS death-knell?

Quote:


> > If you want to run DOS apps you can obtain a copy of the IBM Warp 4
> > operating system http://www.ibm.com/warp or its new cousin eComStation
> > http://www.ecomstation.com

> > Both these operating systems run DOS and 16 bit Win3.1 applications
> > without any problems. You can also obtain the OS/2 version of APL2
> > from IBM for something like $130
> > --
> > Lorne Sunley

> Heavy sigh.  Just thinking about OS/2 makes me sad.  One of the best
> things that never happened.  I was one of the first kernel level
> application developers for it and think it the finest OS ever built.  I
> also remember when it was more Windows compatible than Windows.  Just
> shows to go you how little technical excellence means in the brass
> knuckle world of marketing mayhem.

> Bob

Thanks for your work on it.

I have been using it since the version 2.0 beta. The current version
is 4.51 (November 2000 release) and the technology is still better
than any of the alternate desktop OS products.

As far as DOS and Windows 3.1 apps go, it is still a "better Windows
than Windows".

--
Lorne Sunley



Thu, 18 Sep 2003 02:47:01 GMT  
 Windows XP: DOS death-knell?
 Hello Tom,

 I would not be as desperate as people report.
 Here are my own findings.

 APL+DOS fails under NT as you type, i.e keyboard support
 is incorrect somehow, but this has been fixed by MS under
 Win2000. Under NT, when I type as fast as I can in the
 execution window of APL+DOS, APL (or was it the whole system,
 can't recall) freezes completely after just at most 15 seconds.
 Under Win2000, I did the same for 10 minutes (more than 250 keys
 per minute) and all stayed up; I could still get 2+2 => 4.

 Win2000 appears to offer a DOS environment emulation approaching
 the one of OS/2, which is truly superb. (I have been using OS/2
 32-bit for almost 10 years, still using it for email; but big boss
 Lou found it was not selling enough and in 1997 cut 75% of dev/mkt
 funding! many dev left for MS in the move from Florida to Austin.
 It is even possible that the code of Win200 was written by the same
 person who did DOS keyboard support in OS/2!)

 The one area I have not checked is printing in a network
 environment. You can certainly print to LPT1 on a local printer,
 but printing on a network printer could require some tricky
 adjustment, but my feeling is that this can be solved easily.

 Suggestion: test it under Win2000 and get an XP beta now
 from MS for about 20$us. My guess : it will work with both,
 if you can avoid any real mode driver in XP.

 P.S. It is quite some time I have heard from you, but have seen
 your photo in Vector. If I can be of help, let me know privately.

 Gilles

On Sat, 31 Mar 2001 16:20:08 +0200, "Stefano Lanzavecchia"

Quote:

>> > longer work. I have been told, though I don't personally know, that the
>> > reason APL*Plus II and APLDOS do not work reliably on NT (or 2000) is
>that

>I know for personal experience that while APL*Plus II certainly doesn't work
>very well under NT 4.0, it does work rather well under 2000. I haven't
>tested Whistler (XP) yet, but it's quite likely that, by the time XP is
>close to release, my need for development in the DOS version will be close
>to zilch.
>--
>    WildHeart'2k1



Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:48:17 GMT  
 Windows XP: DOS death-knell?

Quote:

> Thanks for your work on it.

Wish I could take credit but all my work was under it.  I started
porting software applications to it under contract at Yorktown sometime
in the late '80s and fell in love.

Quote:

> I have been using it since the version 2.0 beta. The current version
> is 4.51 (November 2000 release) and the technology is still better
> than any of the alternate desktop OS products.

Glad to hear that.  It's been a while and there are probably so many
layers on it I
wouldn't recognize it.  If I could run my Win98 audio apps on it and get
drivers for my hardware there would be no question about using it if for
no other reason than to get a complete APL I could afford.  :-)

Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler."

                                             A. Einstein

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 To feed a hungry kid today at the cost of a click follow this link:

     http://www.thehungersite.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/HungerSite

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\///////////////////////////////////////



Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:29:20 GMT  
 Windows XP: DOS death-knell?
The problem is NOT finding an OS under which "you" can continue to run
your old APL application,.....(see below for a suggestion to that
problem)....

It is your end users on corporate PCs/OS being able to continue to run
this old application on "their current corporate supplied
hardware/software", over which they may not have any control, say, or
input.

(I have to support applications running on sites where end users
[Running win9x/NT/W200 etc.] have No explorer, No desktop icons, No
"RUN" in the start menu, No access to control panel, No access to their
C: drive etc. All they can do is click on "start" and select an Icon
from the list of [corporate] supplied programs. To make it worse, these
users often have to "hot desk", forcing any application running to have
a ZERO footprint on the PC, before the "corporation" will even consider
putting it onto the users "start-me-up" list .)

As the programmer, you have NO control (or at least very little) over
the end user environment, other than specifying the MINIMUM requirements
needed to support the application.

If your users environment will not support you application, the solution
is simple, re-write your application (if you don't, someone else will),
or get another job. ("You are the weakest link. Good Bye." <grin> [This
is an "in" joke from a BBC Tv quiz show])  

======================

Suggestion to running DOS applications on "New" PCs.

I have bought (aprox $20 each) and fitted "Mobile Rack"s. These are
removable frames for industry standard 3.5inch hard disks, which you
then fit into the 5.25 drive bays (like CD and DVD players use),
allowing you to easily (COLD) swap your hard disk.

This I find is a simple alternative to "Multi-booting" allowing me to
keep my old hard disks (say with DOS6.22 and win3.11 + legacy
applications) running on the latest hardware. Then with a simple
closedown, swap disk, and restart, I can then be running
Win200/Linux/Win3x/9x/Me/NT. (I don't have an IBM WARP/OS2 disc, but I
might get one.)

This also allows me to simply test applications under different OSs.

If you keep a partition of a seconds hard disk formatted with FAT (16),
data can be be stored, retrieved and passed between all the OS installed
on your different hard disks.

However, this is NOT an end user solution.

End of suggestion
======================

--
Ray Cannon
Computer Consultant

www.vector.org.uk



Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:00:05 GMT  
 Windows XP: DOS death-knell?

Quote:


> > Thanks for your work on it.

> Wish I could take credit but all my work was under it.  I started
> porting software applications to it under contract at Yorktown sometime
> in the late '80s and fell in love.

> > I have been using it since the version 2.0 beta. The current version
> > is 4.51 (November 2000 release) and the technology is still better
> > than any of the alternate desktop OS products.

> Glad to hear that.  It's been a while and there are probably so many
> layers on it I
> wouldn't recognize it.  If I could run my Win98 audio apps on it and get
> drivers for my hardware there would be no question about using it if for
> no other reason than to get a complete APL I could afford.  :-)

> Bob

A number of Win98 applications run on Warp 4.5 depending on the app.
There is a product called Odin that provides a Win32 API for OS/2.
Some applications are problematic and others work fine. For instance,
I use it to run Realplayer version 8 without a glitch (this is on an
SMP PII 400 box). Odin is an open source project hosted at
http://www.netlabs.org . Driver support is available for a lot of
devices, so you might be able to switch over depending on your
hardware.

--
Lorne Sunley



Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:39:23 GMT  
 Windows XP: DOS death-knell?

Quote:

> Glad to hear that.  It's been a while and there are probably so many
> layers on it I
> wouldn't recognize it.  If I could run my Win98 audio apps on it and get
> drivers for my hardware there would be no question about using it if for
> no other reason than to get a complete APL I could afford.  :-)

I know re-booting is a PITA but it's better than nothing.  Warp 4 comes
with Boot Manager which allows you to boot one of many OS's.  The
defauly is the last one used so if you're not switching, you just turn
on your machine and go fill your coffee cup.  I have W98 for two apps
and Warp 4 for everything else including APL2.

Ted "would rather fight than switch" Edwards



Fri, 19 Sep 2003 01:54:37 GMT  
 Windows XP: DOS death-knell?

Quote:

> This I find is a simple alternative to "Multi-booting" allowing me to
> keep my old hard disks (say with DOS6.22 and win3.11 + legacy
> applications) running on the latest hardware. Then with a simple
> closedown, swap disk, and restart, I can then be running
> Win200/Linux/Win3x/9x/Me/NT. (I don't have an IBM WARP/OS2 disc, but I
> might get one.)

Why do you not like "Multi-booting"?  If you do get Warp 4, try Boot
Master.  I run OS/2, DOS 6.22 (see below), W98 and have an OS/2
maintenance partition.  Might add Linux at some point.  No problems and
at least as easy as a cold re-start.  The W98, DOS and OS/2 maint
partitions are FAT16 so there is no problem comunicating between OSs.  I
haven't used DOS in quite a while since I haven't got any DOS stuff that
OS/2 won't run so I may dump it.

Ted



Fri, 19 Sep 2003 01:54:41 GMT  
 
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