Developer environment of VC++ vs VB6 for creating GUI apps.... 
Author Message
 Developer environment of VC++ vs VB6 for creating GUI apps....

Although I have that good old fashioned coding in my background (C, C++,
Pascal), I've recently started to look into the world of 32 bit
applications, GUIs, etc..  To ease into the Visual XX arena, I'm learning
Visual Basic.  In just tinkering with Visual C++, I'm not seeing quite the
level of ease in developing the graphical interface for programs.  For
example, in VB you simply drag & drop or shape the various buttons, fields,
and so forth but Visual C++ doesn't seem to have that simple a design
interface.  Am I missing something here?  The point of this message is not
to open a whole VC++ vs VB debate -- I'm trying to gain a better
understanding of the VC++ developing environment and I currently have a VB
developing environment to base from.

James



Fri, 23 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Developer environment of VC++ vs VB6 for creating GUI apps....

Quote:

>In just tinkering with Visual C++, I'm not seeing quite the
>level of ease in developing the graphical interface for programs.  For
>example, in VB you simply drag & drop or shape the various buttons, fields,
>and so forth but Visual C++ doesn't seem to have that simple a design
>interface.  Am I missing something here?  

Nope. I've found that (for me) VB is useful to create a fast prototype,
although I prefer to use VC++ to create the final application.

 - Katy



Fri, 23 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Developer environment of VC++ vs VB6 for creating GUI apps....
Don't let the "Visual" in Visual C++ fool you.  It's a traditional C++
environment with a resource editor built in.


Quote:
> Although I have that good old fashioned coding in my background (C, C++,
> Pascal), I've recently started to look into the world of 32 bit
> applications, GUIs, etc..  To ease into the Visual XX arena, I'm learning
> Visual Basic.  In just tinkering with Visual C++, I'm not seeing quite the
> level of ease in developing the graphical interface for programs.  For
> example, in VB you simply drag & drop or shape the various buttons,
fields,
> and so forth but Visual C++ doesn't seem to have that simple a design
> interface.  Am I missing something here?  The point of this message is not
> to open a whole VC++ vs VB debate -- I'm trying to gain a better
> understanding of the VC++ developing environment and I currently have a VB
> developing environment to base from.

> James




Fri, 23 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Developer environment of VC++ vs VB6 for creating GUI apps....
at least they've finally given us the parameter/argument dropdowns (that you
have in VB) and context-sensitive signature hints that make life that much
easier for us...

greg

Quote:

>Don't let the "Visual" in Visual C++ fool you.  It's a traditional C++
>environment with a resource editor built in.



>> Although I have that good old fashioned coding in my background (C, C++,
>> Pascal), I've recently started to look into the world of 32 bit
>> applications, GUIs, etc..  To ease into the Visual XX arena, I'm learning
>> Visual Basic.  In just tinkering with Visual C++, I'm not seeing quite
the
>> level of ease in developing the graphical interface for programs.  For
>> example, in VB you simply drag & drop or shape the various buttons,
>fields,
>> and so forth but Visual C++ doesn't seem to have that simple a design
>> interface.  Am I missing something here?  The point of this message is
not
>> to open a whole VC++ vs VB debate -- I'm trying to gain a better
>> understanding of the VC++ developing environment and I currently have a
VB
>> developing environment to base from.

>> James




Fri, 23 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Developer environment of VC++ vs VB6 for creating GUI apps....

Quote:
> Nope. I've found that (for me) VB is useful to create a fast prototype,
> although I prefer to use VC++ to create the final application.

Then I guess my question is how do you go from the VB prototype to the VC++
app?  I gotta admit -- coding the whole gui, windows, etc. looks like a
royal pain.

James



Fri, 23 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Developer environment of VC++ vs VB6 for creating GUI apps....

Quote:
> Don't let the "Visual" in Visual C++ fool you.  It's a traditional C++
> environment with a resource editor built in.

So where does the "Visual" come in then?

James



Fri, 23 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Developer environment of VC++ vs VB6 for creating GUI apps....


Quote:
> Nope. I've found that (for me) VB is useful to create a fast prototype,
> although I prefer to use VC++ to create the final application.

There are advantages and disadvantage to this.

The VB app is likely to be running with something showable much
earlier, and so you may have problems getting an accurate image
of your real progress into the minds of your managers.  Often,
people will create a "Hollywood" interface to show what the final
app will do when it is finished.  This tends to fuse the minds of
a certain type of manager.  You will hear statements the equivalent
of "well, if it was that easy to get this far, why are you taking
so long to finish?"  They don't understand that you have more or
less done nothing but show them a little movie.

A Hollywood interface can be useful. It can be the target for more
development. It can be used to get user reaction. If you can get
a freeze on it, you can start on user documentation.  It can also
burn you if you don't get adequate and authoritative data on how
users are responding.  For example, one computer phobic
manager who is exceptionaly cranky one morning should not be
your sole source of change requests for your interface.

Object oriented design does have a much longer time up front.
The design effort is likely to be much more time consuming in
OO than it would be in other approaches, especially in the case
of a "code and fix" pattern which many software houses follow.
(Though this is probably the worst possible software lifecycle.)
For tiny to small apps, say under 1000 lines of code, the OO
extras might not be worth it.  Especially so if the app is a one-off
throw away that will only be used once then discarded.

The longer OO upfront stage tends to make managers nervous. If
you are on what is supposed to be a 1 year project and no code
has been developed in the first 7 months, the managers may
decide you are dogging it. It is quite possible they don't know
there is such a thing as a design document.

VB apps tend to run more slowly than VC apps, though this is
of course not a law of nature or anything.  However, in many
situations the speed of the app is not limited by the app but by
waiting for user input, or data from the LAN, or some such.

In other words, you should carefully examine the overall needs
of your project before choosing a development platform. And
you should be careful to include in those needs all the stuff
that goes into getting and keeping funding, keeping you boss
and your boss's boss happy, and getting a quality product
out the door in an acceptable time.  And you should, carefully
and gently, do what you can to educate the managers on
the project as to the realities.

A developer's tasks do not end with developing the software.
However, this is both a danger and an opportunity. If you
can do both well you can be a star.

--
Dan Evens
(Standard disclaimers etc. No spam please.)



Fri, 23 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Developer environment of VC++ vs VB6 for creating GUI apps....

Quote:
> > Don't let the "Visual" in Visual C++ fool you.  It's a traditional C++
> > environment with a resource editor built in.

> So where does the "Visual" come in then?

The Visual comes in because VC provides lots of GUI tools to help you (such
as the Class Wizard, AppWizard, ObjectWIzard for ATL, etc..)

It's not the same as VB.  It's different, not necessarily worse, but
different.



Fri, 23 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Developer environment of VC++ vs VB6 for creating GUI apps....
So are you implying that in VB no coding is necessary?   In what way is VB
complete "Visual"?

Lets see,

you can paint controls in both development environments if you have a form
based app...
The IDE automatically assigns control IDs to new controls in both
environments...
The IDE shows you all available methods and parameters for each class or
function in both environments...
The IDE automatically highlights syntax errors as you type in VB only....
(which is annoying to me...)

I guess in my opinion, neither IDE is completely visual.  Symantec Visual
Cafe' comes closest to a pure visual application development environment.
What I see as the big difference between the two environments any more is
that VC doesn't try to hide quite as much from the programmer initially.
Once you move away from the standard application framework features, both
IDEs are about the same level of complexity although the look and feel may
be a bit different.

-Pete

Quote:



>> > Don't let the "Visual" in Visual C++ fool you.  It's a traditional C++
>> > environment with a resource editor built in.

>> So where does the "Visual" come in then?

>The Visual comes in because VC provides lots of GUI tools to help you (such
>as the Class Wizard, AppWizard, ObjectWIzard for ATL, etc..)

>It's not the same as VB.  It's different, not necessarily worse, but
>different.



Fri, 23 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Developer environment of VC++ vs VB6 for creating GUI apps....

Quote:

>So are you implying that in VB no coding is necessary?   In what way is VB
>complete "Visual"?

Without ever typing one line of code, I can have a functional (if simple) DB
application up and running; simple point-and-click. With C++, I have to
write code (albeit a very small amount), in somewhat less than obvious
places, to connect controls to database fields.

It's more a RAD thing than a Visual thing...

greg

p.s. I am a C++ person...I use both, but prefer C++



Fri, 23 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Developer environment of VC++ vs VB6 for creating GUI apps....
VB proto for customer sign-off, re-code in C++ if necessary (though, if the
business logic is encapsulated in COM objects, the need to rewrite the is
lessened, unless one of the requirements is that the system be natively
compiled, not interpreted).

greg

Quote:

>> Nope. I've found that (for me) VB is useful to create a fast prototype,
>> although I prefer to use VC++ to create the final application.

>Then I guess my question is how do you go from the VB prototype to the VC++
>app?  I gotta admit -- coding the whole gui, windows, etc. looks like a
>royal pain.

>James




Fri, 23 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Developer environment of VC++ vs VB6 for creating GUI apps....
Microsoft marketing department...

It's visual in that you no longer have to run command-line applications from
the command line, and you get a more visual interface to your project...

don't let him scare you off....you can do a lot with VC++, it's just not
geared toward rapid point-and-click app development like VB (though it could
be, if MS really tried hard enough).

greg

Quote:

>> Don't let the "Visual" in Visual C++ fool you.  It's a traditional C++
>> environment with a resource editor built in.

>So where does the "Visual" come in then?

>James




Fri, 23 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Developer environment of VC++ vs VB6 for creating GUI apps....

Quote:

>Microsoft marketing department...

>It's visual in that you no longer have to run command-line applications
from
>the command line, and you get a more visual interface to your project...

>don't let him scare you off....you can do a lot with VC++, it's just not
>geared toward rapid point-and-click app development like VB (though it
could
>be, if MS really tried hard enough).

Hey, don't knock it. I was *stunned* when MS managed to implement
IntelliSense as fast as they did. ;>

They do pretty well. C++ as a language is much more complex
than Basic. Thirty odd operators, which may be overloaded vs.
eight? ten? which are never overloaded; templates, abstract base
classes, pragmas, etc., etc.

I think they'll get there. They just have a problem pleasing everyone.
For every post bemoaning the fact that the VC IDE isn't as easy as
VB, there are dozens complaining about:

    - Insufficient ANSI compatibility (too much backward compatibility)
    - Insufficient backward compatibility (too much ANSI compatibility)
    - Too many proprietary extensions
    - Not enough extensions
    - Not enough UNIX-style POSIX support
    - Too much POSIX support.

    - etc, etc, etc.

VC is a dancing bear (the amazing thing about a dancing bear is
not how well he dances, but that he dances at all). ;>

As an old Borland user, I'm surprised sometimes the durn
thing works at all. I'm pretty happy with VC. I remember the older
versions, when I used Borland C++ (wince, cringe, shudder)

They were pretty bad. MS has done a lot in the last few years.



Fri, 23 Nov 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Developer environment of VC++ vs VB6 for creating GUI apps....


Quote:


> >Microsoft marketing department...

> >It's visual in that you no longer have to run command-line applications
> from
> >the command line, and you get a more visual interface to your project...

> >don't let him scare you off....you can do a lot with VC++, it's just not
> >geared toward rapid point-and-click app development like VB (though it
> could
> >be, if MS really tried hard enough).

> Hey, don't knock it. I was *stunned* when MS managed to implement
> IntelliSense as fast as they did. ;>

> They do pretty well. C++ as a language is much more complex
> than Basic. Thirty odd operators, which may be overloaded vs.
> eight? ten? which are never overloaded; templates, abstract base
> classes, pragmas, etc., etc.

> I think they'll get there. They just have a problem pleasing everyone.
> For every post bemoaning the fact that the VC IDE isn't as easy as
> VB, there are dozens complaining about:

>     - Insufficient ANSI compatibility (too much backward compatibility)
>     - Insufficient backward compatibility (too much ANSI compatibility)
>     - Too many proprietary extensions
>     - Not enough extensions
>     - Not enough UNIX-style POSIX support
>     - Too much POSIX support.

>     - etc, etc, etc.

> VC is a dancing bear (the amazing thing about a dancing bear is
> not how well he dances, but that he dances at all). ;>

> As an old Borland user, I'm surprised sometimes the durn
> thing works at all. I'm pretty happy with VC. I remember the older
> versions, when I used Borland C++ (wince, cringe, shudder)

> They were pretty bad. MS has done a lot in the last few years.

Here, here...  I second that...

I'm a big fan of VC++.  However, I also have to give VB its kudos...  It
does well for the GUI element of an application...  If you have a multi-
tier app, by chance, which just presents a bunch of forms, for instance
(like the typical corporate application) I would recommend using VB for a
light GUI and COM objects done in C++ to handle moving the data.  If you
have something that does a lot of data transfer and manipulation or that
needs to do some strange drawing you could do that as a C++ activex
control and utilize it from a VB GUI shell.  For instance, we have a grid
control that I'm really not sure if you could do in VB.  If you did, it
would be pretty messed up from the VB code I've seen to do some similar
things...

Personally, everything I do is VC++ because it's all I know.  I've never
taken the time to learn VB extensively.  I can use it though.  One catch
that I've found though is that I can actually get an application up and
running faster in VC++ than my friends can in VB...  I think VC++ (namely
Win32 really) has a bigger learning curve, but it's worth the flexibility
you get out of it...



Wed, 12 Dec 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 Developer environment of VC++ vs VB6 for creating GUI apps....
   I've used VC++, VB, Delphi and C++ Builder, so I guess you could say I've
really been around the block.  Currently I use VC++ at work, because it pays
the bills better and more frequently than Delphi or C++ Builder. At home
where I can choose the tool I think best, I use Delphi, because I find that
I have been far more productive in Delphi than in any other environment and
I enjoy it more, even though I have far more experience in C++. I refuse to
use VB anymore, but I can see how for many business needs it is more than
adequate. C++ programmers hate to admit it, but RAD really does offer a
better development paradigm for over 90% of business needs. (I just find VB
too uninteresting and limiting a language to keep my attention.)
   The combination of RAD and C++ hasn't had too illustrious a history yet.
Borland's C++ Builder uses the Dephi VCL which is in Object Pascal, so that
scares off a lot of C++ purists. In addition, C++ Builder has lagged Delphi
in terms of features. I haven't looked too much at BCB 4.0, but it does mark
the beginning signs of efforts on Borland's part to increase compatibility
with MFC and VC++. That is an effort that needs more work though.
   You can do anything you want with VC++, Delphi and C++ Builder, and most
of what you would really want to do in real life in VB, but....some tools
are better suited for specific tasks than others. VC++ doesn't strike me as
particularly suited to GUI apps, compared to these others. The same goes for
database apps. Between GUI and Database apps that covers something like 80%
of business needs.


Quote:



> > >Microsoft marketing department...

> > >It's visual in that you no longer have to run command-line applications
> > from
> > >the command line, and you get a more visual interface to your
project...

> > >don't let him scare you off....you can do a lot with VC++, it's just
not
> > >geared toward rapid point-and-click app development like VB (though it
> > could
> > >be, if MS really tried hard enough).

> > Hey, don't knock it. I was *stunned* when MS managed to implement
> > IntelliSense as fast as they did. ;>

> > They do pretty well. C++ as a language is much more complex
> > than Basic. Thirty odd operators, which may be overloaded vs.
> > eight? ten? which are never overloaded; templates, abstract base
> > classes, pragmas, etc., etc.

> > I think they'll get there. They just have a problem pleasing everyone.
> > For every post bemoaning the fact that the VC IDE isn't as easy as
> > VB, there are dozens complaining about:

> >     - Insufficient ANSI compatibility (too much backward compatibility)
> >     - Insufficient backward compatibility (too much ANSI compatibility)
> >     - Too many proprietary extensions
> >     - Not enough extensions
> >     - Not enough UNIX-style POSIX support
> >     - Too much POSIX support.

> >     - etc, etc, etc.

> > VC is a dancing bear (the amazing thing about a dancing bear is
> > not how well he dances, but that he dances at all). ;>

> > As an old Borland user, I'm surprised sometimes the durn
> > thing works at all. I'm pretty happy with VC. I remember the older
> > versions, when I used Borland C++ (wince, cringe, shudder)

> > They were pretty bad. MS has done a lot in the last few years.

> Here, here...  I second that...

> I'm a big fan of VC++.  However, I also have to give VB its kudos...  It
> does well for the GUI element of an application...  If you have a multi-
> tier app, by chance, which just presents a bunch of forms, for instance
> (like the typical corporate application) I would recommend using VB for a
> light GUI and COM objects done in C++ to handle moving the data.  If you
> have something that does a lot of data transfer and manipulation or that
> needs to do some strange drawing you could do that as a C++ activex
> control and utilize it from a VB GUI shell.  For instance, we have a grid
> control that I'm really not sure if you could do in VB.  If you did, it
> would be pretty messed up from the VB code I've seen to do some similar
> things...

> Personally, everything I do is VC++ because it's all I know.  I've never
> taken the time to learn VB extensively.  I can use it though.  One catch
> that I've found though is that I can actually get an application up and
> running faster in VC++ than my friends can in VB...  I think VC++ (namely
> Win32 really) has a bigger learning curve, but it's worth the flexibility
> you get out of it...



Fri, 14 Dec 2001 03:00:00 GMT  
 
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