Where is Visual BASIC in Computing History...
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John Wes #1 / 35
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 Where is Visual BASIC in Computing History...
Hello People, I've been a C/C++ programmer for over 12 years. Someone told me that I should start using Visual Basic because it's the new wave in programming. I was very open minded when I first started exploring Visual BASIC, but since then I realized that this product is no more than a hoax of a programming language and development environment. First off, where are the pointers? There are no pointers in this version of BASIC either? I don't care whether some don't have the ability to work with pointers, but no true programming language can do without pointers. The inability for this language to have pointers is one of the best indicators that Visual BASIC prevents a programmer from developing fast, efficient, powerful code. Second, the compiler is a joke. It takes forever to compile. Beyond reasonable as a matter of fact. It requires a run-time file which prevents one from writing bug free programs, since you're tied to this run-time file throughout the execution of your code. And unfortunately I cannot find the source for this run-time file in case I want to debug it and fix any bugs I find in it. It should be a requirement that the source for this run-time file be available in case I want to recompile it. The compiler itself doesn't even produce efficient code. I'm sorry, but this is not a true native-code compiler. It's unacceptable! Take it back, I don't need it. The interpreter runs faster than compiled code. Third, this is not Object-Oriented Programming. I can understand that most of you don't understand what OOP is, and don't understand how to use it, but the foundation in which the Visual BASIC language was built upon will never allow true object-oriented programming. That's a shame, since true OOP is one most important aspects of programming today. Unfortunately this product still requires you to write structured code. I've spoken to many of my colleagues in the software development community, and they all feel the same way I do about Visual BASIC. I hope that if any of you are truly interested in becoming an "expert programmer" that you'll consider what opportunities there are developing in more sophisticated languages and development environments. Consider how important the understanding of pointers, memory management, true native-code compilers and true object-oriented programming are to software development and becoming a top-notch programmer. Thank you for taking the time to listen. Sincerely, John West
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Thu, 30 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT |
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Miguel Santo #2 / 35
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 Where is Visual BASIC in Computing History...
Oh Well... Back to the good old VB-as-a-proper-language debate... Let's just say there are two types of languages around, and there always have been: The scientificaly correct language, which will allow you to so all sorts of powerful, fast, state-of-the-art compact programs, and those languages that actually allow an application to solve real-world problems. Now, I don't know about John West's customers, but mine don't really care if their problems are being solved using pointers and True OOP and True native compilation, etc... etc... They expect the application to work as desired, to adapt itself to the changing of times, basicaly , TO GET THE JOB DONE! Now as we all VB programers know, we could really use pointers at times, but the lack of pointers in VB keeps the language safe and hi-level. After all, if we're talking about building a very fast, compact and powerfull component, yep, you're probably better off with C++, but if you're making production app's with 100.000+ lines each, do you really want to relly on debugging run-time files and using tight code, almost impossible to maintain? Yes, maintenace of code is yet another issue that people keep forgeting. That's why COBOL is still the most used computer language all over the world (actually, if you count all versions of VB, VBA and VBS, then this place belongs to Visual Basic). COBOL allows you to make not-so-fast, not-so-compact programs that DO solve custumers needs. In my opinion, VB is getting COBOL's place these days, in the way that it is a high-level language, very easy to learn, very easy to debug, and very easy to mantain, even by programmers that didn't write the original code. In these days of OLE communication, mixed-language environments, my best recomendation is: Use the right tool for the job. Miguel Santos _____________________________________________________________
Quote: > Hello People, > I've been a C/C++ programmer for over 12 years. Someone told me that I > should start using Visual BASIC because it's the new wave in > programming. > I was very open minded when I first started exploring Visual BASIC, but > since then I realized that this product is no more than a hoax of a > programming language and development environment. > First off, where are the pointers? There are no pointers in this version > of BASIC either? I don't care whether some don't have the ability to > work with pointers, but no true programming language can do without > pointers. The inability for this language to have pointers is one of the > best indicators that Visual BASIC prevents a programmer from developing > fast, efficient, powerful code. > Second, the compiler is a joke. It takes forever to compile. Beyond > reasonable as a matter of fact. It requires a run-time file which > prevents one from writing bug free programs, since you're tied to this > run-time file throughout the execution of your code. And unfortunately I > cannot find the source for this run-time file in case I want to debug it > and fix any bugs I find in it. It should be a requirement that the > source for this run-time file be available in case I want to recompile > it. > The compiler itself doesn't even produce efficient code. I'm sorry, but > this is not a true native-code compiler. It's unacceptable! Take it > back, I don't need it. The interpreter runs faster than compiled code. > Third, this is not Object-Oriented Programming. I can understand that > most of you don't understand what OOP is, and don't understand how to > use it, but the foundation in which the Visual BASIC language was built > upon will never allow true object-oriented programming. That's a shame, > since true OOP is one most important aspects of programming today. > Unfortunately this product still requires you to write structured code. > I've spoken to many of my colleagues in the software development > community, and they all feel the same way I do about Visual BASIC. I > hope that if any of you are truly interested in becoming an "expert > programmer" that you'll consider what opportunities there are developing > in more sophisticated languages and development environments. Consider > how important the understanding of pointers, memory management, true > native-code compilers and true object-oriented programming are to > software development and becoming a top-notch programmer. > Thank you for taking the time to listen. > Sincerely, > John West
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Thu, 30 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT |
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Lars Lundsted #3 / 35
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 Where is Visual BASIC in Computing History...
Quote: > And unfortunately I > cannot find the source for this run-time file in case I want to debug it > and fix any bugs I find in it. It should be a requirement that the > source for this run-time file be available in case I want to recompile > it.
Leaving the question of ownership of code aside, what would happen with the compatibility issue if everybody had access to the runtime-file?
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Thu, 30 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT |
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Francesc Hervada i Sal #4 / 35
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 Where is Visual BASIC in Computing History...
Hi, my heart is with John but my earnings come from VB, so I agree with Miguel. VB is a higher level language than C++, and it is more oritented towards logic of programs than its real implementation on a real platform. In VB you just don't need to know many about your OS and quite nothing about your hardware. That is VB option and, therefore, its strongness and weakness comes from that. However, I would want to note that each VB version is more powerful and less easy to use, as VB comes more and more a serious programming language and it is used by more programmers and for more different applications. Wouldn't it be nice to have a single programming language that joined these two approaches? Why not write 70% of code with the ease and maintainability of VB, 29% with the control of C++, and even the last 1% at assembler level, and all of this with a single language, without the need of mixed language programming? Best regards. -- Francesc Hervada i Sala
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Thu, 30 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT |
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Randy Birc #5 / 35
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 Where is Visual BASIC in Computing History...
My goodness .. a politician :)
: Hi, : : my heart is with John but my earnings come from VB, so I agree with Miguel. : VB is a higher level language than C++, and it is more oritented towards : logic of programs than its real implementation on a real platform. In VB : you just don't need to know many about your OS and quite nothing about your : hardware. That is VB option and, therefore, its strongness and weakness : comes from that. However, I would want to note that each VB version is more : powerful and less easy to use, as VB comes more and more a serious : programming language and it is used by more programmers and for more : different applications. : : Wouldn't it be nice to have a single programming language that joined these : two approaches? Why not write 70% of code with the ease and maintainability : of VB, 29% with the control of C++, and even the last 1% at assembler : level, and all of this with a single language, without the need of mixed : language programming? : : Best regards. : : -- : Francesc Hervada i Sala : :
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Thu, 30 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT |
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Bob Butle #6 / 35
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 Where is Visual BASIC in Computing History...
Quote: > Hello People, > I've been a C/C++ programmer for over 12 years. Someone told me that I > should start using Visual BASIC because it's the new wave in > programming. > I was very open minded when I first started exploring Visual BASIC, but > since then I realized that this product is no more than a hoax of a > programming language and development environment.
<cut> The first programming language I learned was machine code. After that it was assembler. Then Basic, fortran, Cobol, etc. In every case there were methods that were effective in one language that could not be done reasonably in the next. Each language had it's strengths and weaknesses. The key is to use the constructs of the chosen language and not to try to force one paradigm onto another. I'd like to see a lot of things change in VB. Real pointers would make a lot of things easier to do in VB. Increased OOP capabilites would be nice. Their lack does not make VB "inferior" so much as it makes it "different". I will agree that VB is being used by many people who should be using C++ or something else instead. Many applications are much simpler in other languages. On the other hand VB can be an extremely effective tool when used for what it was designed for. I guess the bottom line is that if you feel that OOP is the only way to code then VB is not for you and you shouldn't use it. So don't. Just don't try to save us poor little fools who don't understand how badly we are being mislead. We aren't. -- Please reply through the newsgroup. The reply e-mail address is garbage to reduce the spam rate.
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Thu, 30 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT |
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John Wes #7 / 35
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 Where is Visual BASIC in Computing History...
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> Leaving the question of ownership of code aside, what would happen > with the compatibility issue if everybody had access to the runtime-file?
The capable hands to do this apparently don't belong to the people using Visual BASIC. You've shown this o me. But the capable hands to do this does belong to C/C++ programmers. But good question. :-) John West
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Thu, 30 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT |
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Quentin Stafford-Frase #8 / 35
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 Where is Visual BASIC in Computing History...
Quote: > Wouldn't it be nice to have a single programming language that joined these > two approaches?
Well, I still think that Modula-3 is the best systems language available, because it really is multithreaded, safe, and OO from the ground up. And you can do low-level stuff if you really need to in a safe way. But, alas, very few people use it. I rather suspect Delphi is the next best thing... Quentin Stafford-Fraser
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Thu, 30 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT |
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#9 / 35
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 Where is Visual BASIC in Computing History...
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Fri, 19 Jun 1992 00:00:00 GMT |
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Matt Brow #10 / 35
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 Where is Visual BASIC in Computing History...
Quote: > Now, I don't know about John West's customers, but mine don't really care > if their problems are being solved using pointers and True OOP and True > native compilation, etc... etc... They expect the application to work as > desired, to adapt itself to the changing of times, basicaly , TO GET THE > JOB DONE!
And with our customers, they need it yesterday, which is why 90% of our development is done in VB. On the other hand, I wouldn't try to write a VB-based OS. ;-) Quote: > That's why COBOL is still the most used computer > language all over the world (actually, if you count all versions of VB, VBA > and VBS, then this place belongs to Visual Basic). COBOL allows you to make > not-so-fast, not-so-compact programs that DO solve custumers needs.
Is this still the case? Why didn't my B.S. degree ever expose me to COBOL programming (I don't even know what COBOL code looks like)? Should I take a course and learn it, or will VB "take its place"? Thanks, Matt -- Matt Brown Programmer, Training Labs Inc. / Shadow Corp. http://www.tarimar.com/mattkb/
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Thu, 30 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT |
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#11 / 35
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 Where is Visual BASIC in Computing History...
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Fri, 19 Jun 1992 00:00:00 GMT |
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Fran?ois Charti #12 / 35
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 Where is Visual BASIC in Computing History...
Quote:
> Wouldn't it be nice to have a single programming language that joined > these two approaches? Why not write 70% of code with the ease and > maintainability of VB, 29% with the control of C++, and even the last 1% > at assembler level, and all of this with a single language, without the > need of mixed language programming?
I think this is exactly what Java Symantec Visual Cafe tries to do. :-) I've got a formation on Java last week and have been very surprised about this language. I think Java will become a great programming language very soon. All I hope is a "real" visual environment like Visual Basic's one. The only visual thing in Microsoft Visual J++ is its name. :-) But I heard that Symantec Visual Cafe is really "visual". Fran?ois Chartier Balatum, consultants en informatique "N'ayons pas peur des maux..." http://www.mlink.net/~balatum E-Mail: Via notre site (no-spams)
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Thu, 30 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT |
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#13 / 35
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 Where is Visual BASIC in Computing History...
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Fri, 19 Jun 1992 00:00:00 GMT |
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Miguel Santo #14 / 35
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 Where is Visual BASIC in Computing History...
FYI, COBOL features a very high-level syntax, very english-like, and uses very few keywords, yet getting the job done. It also features (in most versions anyway) a very fast ISAM access, also made very easy to handle. This allowed to make multi-user apps 30+ years ago. It's sad to say that now with all the techonoly available to us, things only seem to get tougher and less reliable. But then, our parents didn't have the couloured icons did they? :) Oh, about the OS built in VB, that is exacly my point. Right tool for the job. If it's going to take 3 years to develop and be fast and powerfull, build it with a low-level language. C++ seems to do fine at this lever. Now, about making a 100.000 line program in about a month (true story...) for accountancy purposes, I wouldn't rely on C++. That would be about the time I'de need to get me to learn the basics. Oh, by the way, I still use COBOL DLL's for data access purposes, there have been some recent COBOL versions (Microfocus' Visual Object COBOL for example) that feature all the OOP stuff (Yes, POINTERS too), yet they have turned a simple and adequate tool for a certain job into some hybrid low/high language, Something our friend John would like to happen to VB, but it's obviosly off VB's purposes. I'll be happy to send you some COBOL code if you want, you'll be amazed to realize you can understand it, even without learning it first. Regards Miguel Santos __________________________________________________________
Quote:
> > Now, I don't know about John West's customers, but mine don't really care > > if their problems are being solved using pointers and True OOP and True > > native compilation, etc... etc... They expect the application to work as > > desired, to adapt itself to the changing of times, basicaly , TO GET THE > > JOB DONE! > And with our customers, they need it yesterday, which is why 90% of our > development is done in VB. On the other hand, I wouldn't try to write a > VB-based OS. ;-) > > That's why COBOL is still the most used computer > > language all over the world (actually, if you count all versions of VB, > VBA > > and VBS, then this place belongs to Visual Basic). COBOL allows you to > make > > not-so-fast, not-so-compact programs that DO solve custumers needs. > Is this still the case? Why didn't my B.S. degree ever expose me to COBOL > programming (I don't even know what COBOL code looks like)? Should I take a > course and learn it, or will VB "take its place"? > Thanks, Matt > -- > Matt Brown > Programmer, Training Labs Inc. / Shadow Corp. > http://www.tarimar.com/mattkb/
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Thu, 30 Dec 1999 03:00:00 GMT |
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#15 / 35
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 Where is Visual BASIC in Computing History...
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Fri, 19 Jun 1992 00:00:00 GMT |
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