Well... So much for my little project...
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Tim Overba #1 / 11
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Well... So much for my little project...
I just found out that MSFT has made their DX 8.1 managed wrapper available. I have mixed feelings about this. I'm happy that I can start using DX with VB.NET in a more serious way, but I'm a little disappointed that all the work I did on my own managed wrapper has been rendered moot. C'est la vie. Has anybody else tried this wrapper yet? Tim
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Sat, 18 Sep 2004 00:25:50 GMT |
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Philip Taylor [MS #2 / 11
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Well... So much for my little project...
we havent "released" the 8.1 Managed layer. what we have done is make a prototype of the Managed layer available on the 8.1 interfaces. this prototype is timebombed and will be superceded by the 9.0 beta bits. this is primarily to update customers who got the PDC preview last Oct, since it expired in Feb, and to enable prototyping by customers with need and folk who we believe, based on historical interactions, will give us good feedback. the DX 9.0 beta should be late spring/early summer ( May-June ) and is the first time the entire beta list will get a look. -- Phil Taylor PM : DirectX SDK, Managed DirectX, WindowsXP Inbox 3D Screensavers, and a few more bits and bobs http://msdn.microsoft.com/directx This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
Quote: > I just found out that MSFT has made their DX 8.1 managed wrapper available. > I have mixed feelings about this. I'm happy that I can start using DX with > VB.NET in a more serious way, but I'm a little disappointed that all the > work I did on my own managed wrapper has been rendered moot. C'est la vie. > Has anybody else tried this wrapper yet? > Tim
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Sat, 18 Sep 2004 03:35:26 GMT |
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Rob Perkin #3 / 11
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Well... So much for my little project...
Quote: >-----Original Message----- >this is primarily to update customers who got the PDC
preview last Oct, There was a PDC preview?!!! Phil, I was at the PDC asking *everyone I could find* about DX in the .NET Framework! To a *man*, they all said there was no such thing and noone knew when there ever would be. And now I come to discover there was a PDC preview!? What, the $2000+ per (not to mention the wildly expensive hotel) we paid to sit in on an upcoming technologies conference doesn't expose us to all the relevant upcoming technologies? I vented a bit here, locally, until a friend of mine, a 25-year veteran of IT in five different companies, said, "Welcome to the world of business." Listen. I have a demo I would sorely love to complete, under the .NET managed layers, in time for a 4th May trade show in my industry. It requires viewing of high- polygon-count 3D CAD images. I could use a managed-layer interface, *any* managed layer interface, to get this done and show the advantages of .NET to my employers. A simple SDI shell-and-menus isn't going to cut it, but if they can see some hardware-accelerated alpha blending, man, that sells seats of software, and that's the bottom line! I've already demonstrated to them that implementing new UI features takes a bazillionth of the time in .NET as they do in VB6 with COM libraries. There's only one selling point left, and this is it. Help me out here! We could have a .NET *product*, for sale to customers, out the door by DX9's release if you'd just help me out now! We return you now to your regular schedule of content- free platitudes and slipping shipdates. Rob
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Sun, 19 Sep 2004 01:28:18 GMT |
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Tim Overba #4 / 11
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Well... So much for my little project...
Hi Rob, www.betaplace.com BetaId = ManagedDX Password = GDC2002 Hope that helps, Tim
Quote: > >-----Original Message----- > >this is primarily to update customers who got the PDC > preview last Oct, > There was a PDC preview?!!! > Phil, I was at the PDC asking *everyone I could find* > about DX in the .NET Framework! To a *man*, they all said > there was no such thing and noone knew when there ever > would be. > And now I come to discover there was a PDC preview!? > What, the $2000+ per (not to mention the wildly expensive > hotel) we paid to sit in on an upcoming technologies > conference doesn't expose us to all the relevant upcoming > technologies? > I vented a bit here, locally, until a friend of mine, a > 25-year veteran of IT in five different companies, > said, "Welcome to the world of business." > Listen. I have a demo I would sorely love to complete, > under the .NET managed layers, in time for a 4th May > trade show in my industry. It requires viewing of high- > polygon-count 3D CAD images. I could use a managed-layer > interface, *any* managed layer interface, to get this > done and show the advantages of .NET to my employers. A > simple SDI shell-and-menus isn't going to cut it, but if > they can see some hardware-accelerated alpha blending, > man, that sells seats of software, and that's the bottom > line! > I've already demonstrated to them that implementing new > UI features takes a bazillionth of the time in .NET as > they do in VB6 with COM libraries. There's only one > selling point left, and this is it. > Help me out here! We could have a .NET *product*, for > sale to customers, out the door by DX9's release if you'd > just help me out now! > We return you now to your regular schedule of content- > free platitudes and slipping shipdates. > Rob
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Sun, 19 Sep 2004 03:56:47 GMT |
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JCastr #5 / 11
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Well... So much for my little project...
You are newbies in Ms-products?... Many people (like me), will go to buy .NET only when MS release the first service pack. The first .net users is always the "guinea pigs".. of course for a serious and commercial purpose, .NET, today is not the correct tools. In any case, VB6SP5 is enough good for many directx projects ;-).. at least the dxsdk samples, work without problems
Quote: > >-----Original Message----- > >this is primarily to update customers who got the PDC > preview last Oct, > There was a PDC preview?!!! > Phil, I was at the PDC asking *everyone I could find* > about DX in the .NET Framework! To a *man*, they all said > there was no such thing and noone knew when there ever > would be. > And now I come to discover there was a PDC preview!? > What, the $2000+ per (not to mention the wildly expensive > hotel) we paid to sit in on an upcoming technologies > conference doesn't expose us to all the relevant upcoming > technologies? > I vented a bit here, locally, until a friend of mine, a > 25-year veteran of IT in five different companies, > said, "Welcome to the world of business." > Listen. I have a demo I would sorely love to complete, > under the .NET managed layers, in time for a 4th May > trade show in my industry. It requires viewing of high- > polygon-count 3D CAD images. I could use a managed-layer > interface, *any* managed layer interface, to get this > done and show the advantages of .NET to my employers. A > simple SDI shell-and-menus isn't going to cut it, but if > they can see some hardware-accelerated alpha blending, > man, that sells seats of software, and that's the bottom > line! > I've already demonstrated to them that implementing new > UI features takes a bazillionth of the time in .NET as > they do in VB6 with COM libraries. There's only one > selling point left, and this is it. > Help me out here! We could have a .NET *product*, for > sale to customers, out the door by DX9's release if you'd > just help me out now! > We return you now to your regular schedule of content- > free platitudes and slipping shipdates. > Rob
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Sun, 19 Sep 2004 22:58:09 GMT |
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Wayne S. Freez #6 / 11
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Well... So much for my little project...
Well the real rule of thumb is to wait for version 3 <grin>. Seriously, I've been working with .NET for over a year and a half and while the PDC bits and Beta 1 were shakey, beta 2 was pretty solid and I haven't run into any real problems with the gold version. There are a few features I wish they would have included into .NET, but on the whole I wouldn't hesitate to recommend using it in a production environment. I've played with the managed DX bits and I think that they are much easier to use than the current COM based interface for Visual Basic programmers. Also having true inheritance in the lanaguage can be a big timesaver when building non-trivial programs. This coupled with the fact that you can download the .NET SDK for free, which includes a command line VB compiler makes it possible for people to build applications that couldn't afford the high price for Visual Studio. ..........Wayne "Recycling electrons into words since 1996." Visit www.JustPC.com for details about my Visual Basic books, including my newest: Windows Game Programming With Visual Basic and DirectX, and the ASP.NET Database Programming Bible. Subscribe to the JustPC Developer's Journal - a free email newsletter for Visual Basic programmers
Quote: > You are newbies in Ms-products?... > Many people (like me), will go to buy .NET only when MS release the first > service pack. The first .net users is always the "guinea pigs".. of course > for a serious and commercial purpose, .NET, today is not the correct tools. > In any case, VB6SP5 is enough good for many directx projects ;-).. at least > the dxsdk samples, work without problems
> > >-----Original Message----- > > >this is primarily to update customers who got the PDC > > preview last Oct, > > There was a PDC preview?!!! > > Phil, I was at the PDC asking *everyone I could find* > > about DX in the .NET Framework! To a *man*, they all said > > there was no such thing and noone knew when there ever > > would be. > > And now I come to discover there was a PDC preview!? > > What, the $2000+ per (not to mention the wildly expensive > > hotel) we paid to sit in on an upcoming technologies > > conference doesn't expose us to all the relevant upcoming > > technologies? > > I vented a bit here, locally, until a friend of mine, a > > 25-year veteran of IT in five different companies, > > said, "Welcome to the world of business." > > Listen. I have a demo I would sorely love to complete, > > under the .NET managed layers, in time for a 4th May > > trade show in my industry. It requires viewing of high- > > polygon-count 3D CAD images. I could use a managed-layer > > interface, *any* managed layer interface, to get this > > done and show the advantages of .NET to my employers. A > > simple SDI shell-and-menus isn't going to cut it, but if > > they can see some hardware-accelerated alpha blending, > > man, that sells seats of software, and that's the bottom > > line! > > I've already demonstrated to them that implementing new > > UI features takes a bazillionth of the time in .NET as > > they do in VB6 with COM libraries. There's only one > > selling point left, and this is it. > > Help me out here! We could have a .NET *product*, for > > sale to customers, out the door by DX9's release if you'd > > just help me out now! > > We return you now to your regular schedule of content- > > free platitudes and slipping shipdates. > > Rob
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Sun, 19 Sep 2004 22:14:29 GMT |
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Tim Overba #7 / 11
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Well... So much for my little project...
I agree. The managed DX bits are a thousand times better than DXVBLIB. If they're an indication of what DX9 will be like, VB programmers will no longer be second-class citizens in the DirectX community. Great job Phil, Tom, and the rest of the DirectX team! Tim
Quote: > Well the real rule of thumb is to wait for version 3 <grin>. Seriously, > I've been working with .NET for over a year and a half and while the PDC > bits and Beta 1 were shakey, beta 2 was pretty solid and I haven't run into > any real problems with the gold version. There are a few features I wish > they would have included into .NET, but on the whole I wouldn't hesitate to > recommend using it in a production environment. > I've played with the managed DX bits and I think that they are much easier > to use than the current COM based interface for Visual Basic programmers. > Also having true inheritance in the lanaguage can be a big timesaver when > building non-trivial programs. This coupled with the fact that you can > download the .NET SDK for free, which includes a command line VB compiler > makes it possible for people to build applications that couldn't afford the > high price for Visual Studio. > ..........Wayne > "Recycling electrons into words since 1996." > Visit www.JustPC.com for details about my Visual Basic books, including > my newest: Windows Game Programming With Visual Basic and DirectX, > and the ASP.NET Database Programming Bible. Subscribe to the JustPC > Developer's Journal - a free email newsletter for Visual Basic programmers
> > You are newbies in Ms-products?... > > Many people (like me), will go to buy .NET only when MS release the first > > service pack. The first .net users is always the "guinea pigs".. of > course > > for a serious and commercial purpose, .NET, today is not the correct > tools. > > In any case, VB6SP5 is enough good for many directx projects ;-).. at > least > > the dxsdk samples, work without problems
> > > >-----Original Message----- > > > >this is primarily to update customers who got the PDC > > > preview last Oct, > > > There was a PDC preview?!!! > > > Phil, I was at the PDC asking *everyone I could find* > > > about DX in the .NET Framework! To a *man*, they all said > > > there was no such thing and noone knew when there ever > > > would be. > > > And now I come to discover there was a PDC preview!? > > > What, the $2000+ per (not to mention the wildly expensive > > > hotel) we paid to sit in on an upcoming technologies > > > conference doesn't expose us to all the relevant upcoming > > > technologies? > > > I vented a bit here, locally, until a friend of mine, a > > > 25-year veteran of IT in five different companies, > > > said, "Welcome to the world of business." > > > Listen. I have a demo I would sorely love to complete, > > > under the .NET managed layers, in time for a 4th May > > > trade show in my industry. It requires viewing of high- > > > polygon-count 3D CAD images. I could use a managed-layer > > > interface, *any* managed layer interface, to get this > > > done and show the advantages of .NET to my employers. A > > > simple SDI shell-and-menus isn't going to cut it, but if > > > they can see some hardware-accelerated alpha blending, > > > man, that sells seats of software, and that's the bottom > > > line! > > > I've already demonstrated to them that implementing new > > > UI features takes a bazillionth of the time in .NET as > > > they do in VB6 with COM libraries. There's only one > > > selling point left, and this is it. > > > Help me out here! We could have a .NET *product*, for > > > sale to customers, out the door by DX9's release if you'd > > > just help me out now! > > > We return you now to your regular schedule of content- > > > free platitudes and slipping shipdates. > > > Rob
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Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:37:24 GMT |
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MS #8 / 11
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Well... So much for my little project...
I'm feeling the love.. :) -- - Tom Miller, Dev Lead, Managed DirectX This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
Quote: > I agree. The managed DX bits are a thousand times better than DXVBLIB. If > they're an indication of what DX9 will be like, VB programmers will no > longer be second-class citizens in the DirectX community. Great job Phil, > Tom, and the rest of the DirectX team! > Tim
> > Well the real rule of thumb is to wait for version 3 <grin>. Seriously, > > I've been working with .NET for over a year and a half and while the PDC > > bits and Beta 1 were shakey, beta 2 was pretty solid and I haven't run > into > > any real problems with the gold version. There are a few features I wish > > they would have included into .NET, but on the whole I wouldn't hesitate > to > > recommend using it in a production environment. > > I've played with the managed DX bits and I think that they are much easier > > to use than the current COM based interface for Visual Basic programmers. > > Also having true inheritance in the lanaguage can be a big timesaver when > > building non-trivial programs. This coupled with the fact that you can > > download the .NET SDK for free, which includes a command line VB compiler > > makes it possible for people to build applications that couldn't afford > the > > high price for Visual Studio. > > ..........Wayne > > "Recycling electrons into words since 1996." > > Visit www.JustPC.com for details about my Visual Basic books, including > > my newest: Windows Game Programming With Visual Basic and DirectX, > > and the ASP.NET Database Programming Bible. Subscribe to the JustPC > > Developer's Journal - a free email newsletter for Visual Basic programmers
> > > You are newbies in Ms-products?... > > > Many people (like me), will go to buy .NET only when MS release the > first > > > service pack. The first .net users is always the "guinea pigs".. of > > course > > > for a serious and commercial purpose, .NET, today is not the correct > > tools. > > > In any case, VB6SP5 is enough good for many directx projects ;-).. at > > least > > > the dxsdk samples, work without problems
> > > > >-----Original Message----- > > > > >this is primarily to update customers who got the PDC > > > > preview last Oct, > > > > There was a PDC preview?!!! > > > > Phil, I was at the PDC asking *everyone I could find* > > > > about DX in the .NET Framework! To a *man*, they all said > > > > there was no such thing and noone knew when there ever > > > > would be. > > > > And now I come to discover there was a PDC preview!? > > > > What, the $2000+ per (not to mention the wildly expensive > > > > hotel) we paid to sit in on an upcoming technologies > > > > conference doesn't expose us to all the relevant upcoming > > > > technologies? > > > > I vented a bit here, locally, until a friend of mine, a > > > > 25-year veteran of IT in five different companies, > > > > said, "Welcome to the world of business." > > > > Listen. I have a demo I would sorely love to complete, > > > > under the .NET managed layers, in time for a 4th May > > > > trade show in my industry. It requires viewing of high- > > > > polygon-count 3D CAD images. I could use a managed-layer > > > > interface, *any* managed layer interface, to get this > > > > done and show the advantages of .NET to my employers. A > > > > simple SDI shell-and-menus isn't going to cut it, but if > > > > they can see some hardware-accelerated alpha blending, > > > > man, that sells seats of software, and that's the bottom > > > > line! > > > > I've already demonstrated to them that implementing new > > > > UI features takes a bazillionth of the time in .NET as > > > > they do in VB6 with COM libraries. There's only one > > > > selling point left, and this is it. > > > > Help me out here! We could have a .NET *product*, for > > > > sale to customers, out the door by DX9's release if you'd > > > > just help me out now! > > > > We return you now to your regular schedule of content- > > > > free platitudes and slipping shipdates. > > > > Rob
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Mon, 20 Sep 2004 06:17:48 GMT |
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Richard Van Fossan [MS #9 / 11
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Well... So much for my little project...
There was a PDC preview of DirectX, but as far as I know it did not contain managed bits. You might be able to get access to the managed beta by
==================================================== This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights. -------------------- Quote: >Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message
>Subject: Re: Well... So much for my little project... >Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:28:18 -0800 >Lines: 46
>MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >X-Newsreader: Microsoft CDO for Windows 2000 >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 >Thread-Index: AcHaa8cyaRUV/NqZS76JA7JANPQ5WA== >Newsgroups: microsoft.public.vb.directx >Path: cpmsftngxa10 >Xref: cpmsftngxa10 microsoft.public.vb.directx:4109 >NNTP-Posting-Host: TKMSFTNGXA03 10.201.232.162 >X-Tomcat-NG: microsoft.public.vb.directx >>-----Original Message----- >>this is primarily to update customers who got the PDC >preview last Oct, >There was a PDC preview?!!! >Phil, I was at the PDC asking *everyone I could find* >about DX in the .NET Framework! To a *man*, they all said >there was no such thing and noone knew when there ever >would be. >And now I come to discover there was a PDC preview!? >What, the $2000+ per (not to mention the wildly expensive >hotel) we paid to sit in on an upcoming technologies >conference doesn't expose us to all the relevant upcoming >technologies? >I vented a bit here, locally, until a friend of mine, a >25-year veteran of IT in five different companies, >said, "Welcome to the world of business." >Listen. I have a demo I would sorely love to complete, >under the .NET managed layers, in time for a 4th May >trade show in my industry. It requires viewing of high- >polygon-count 3D CAD images. I could use a managed-layer >interface, *any* managed layer interface, to get this >done and show the advantages of .NET to my employers. A >simple SDI shell-and-menus isn't going to cut it, but if >they can see some hardware-accelerated alpha blending, >man, that sells seats of software, and that's the bottom >line! >I've already demonstrated to them that implementing new >UI features takes a bazillionth of the time in .NET as >they do in VB6 with COM libraries. There's only one >selling point left, and this is it. >Help me out here! We could have a .NET *product*, for >sale to customers, out the door by DX9's release if you'd >just help me out now! >We return you now to your regular schedule of content- >free platitudes and slipping shipdates. >Rob
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Tue, 21 Sep 2004 00:35:02 GMT |
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Philip Taylor [MS #10 / 11
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Well... So much for my little project...
the PDC preview was entirely Managed DirectX. -- Phil Taylor PM : DirectX SDK, Managed DirectX, WindowsXP Inbox 3D Screensavers, and a few more bits and bobs http://msdn.microsoft.com/directx This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
Quote: > There was a PDC preview of DirectX, but as far as I know it did not contain > managed bits. You might be able to get access to the managed beta by
> ==================================================== > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, > and confers no rights. > -------------------- > >Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message
> >Subject: Re: Well... So much for my little project... > >Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:28:18 -0800 > >Lines: 46
> >MIME-Version: 1.0 > >Content-Type: text/plain; > > charset="iso-8859-1" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >X-Newsreader: Microsoft CDO for Windows 2000 > >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 > >Thread-Index: AcHaa8cyaRUV/NqZS76JA7JANPQ5WA== > >Newsgroups: microsoft.public.vb.directx > >Path: cpmsftngxa10 > >Xref: cpmsftngxa10 microsoft.public.vb.directx:4109 > >NNTP-Posting-Host: TKMSFTNGXA03 10.201.232.162 > >X-Tomcat-NG: microsoft.public.vb.directx > >>-----Original Message----- > >>this is primarily to update customers who got the PDC > >preview last Oct, > >There was a PDC preview?!!! > >Phil, I was at the PDC asking *everyone I could find* > >about DX in the .NET Framework! To a *man*, they all said > >there was no such thing and noone knew when there ever > >would be. > >And now I come to discover there was a PDC preview!? > >What, the $2000+ per (not to mention the wildly expensive > >hotel) we paid to sit in on an upcoming technologies > >conference doesn't expose us to all the relevant upcoming > >technologies? > >I vented a bit here, locally, until a friend of mine, a > >25-year veteran of IT in five different companies, > >said, "Welcome to the world of business." > >Listen. I have a demo I would sorely love to complete, > >under the .NET managed layers, in time for a 4th May > >trade show in my industry. It requires viewing of high- > >polygon-count 3D CAD images. I could use a managed-layer > >interface, *any* managed layer interface, to get this > >done and show the advantages of .NET to my employers. A > >simple SDI shell-and-menus isn't going to cut it, but if > >they can see some hardware-accelerated alpha blending, > >man, that sells seats of software, and that's the bottom > >line! > >I've already demonstrated to them that implementing new > >UI features takes a bazillionth of the time in .NET as > >they do in VB6 with COM libraries. There's only one > >selling point left, and this is it. > >Help me out here! We could have a .NET *product*, for > >sale to customers, out the door by DX9's release if you'd > >just help me out now! > >We return you now to your regular schedule of content- > >free platitudes and slipping shipdates. > >Rob
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Thu, 23 Sep 2004 06:10:06 GMT |
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Philip Taylor [MS #11 / 11
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Well... So much for my little project...
the PDC release was Managed DirectX only, on 8.1, and expired in Feb. -- Phil Taylor PM : DirectX SDK, Managed DirectX, WindowsXP Inbox 3D Screensavers, and a few more bits and bobs http://msdn.microsoft.com/directx This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
Quote: > There was a PDC preview of DirectX, but as far as I know it did not contain > managed bits. You might be able to get access to the managed beta by
> ==================================================== > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, > and confers no rights. > -------------------- > >Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message
> >Subject: Re: Well... So much for my little project... > >Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:28:18 -0800 > >Lines: 46
> >MIME-Version: 1.0 > >Content-Type: text/plain; > > charset="iso-8859-1" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >X-Newsreader: Microsoft CDO for Windows 2000 > >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 > >Thread-Index: AcHaa8cyaRUV/NqZS76JA7JANPQ5WA== > >Newsgroups: microsoft.public.vb.directx > >Path: cpmsftngxa10 > >Xref: cpmsftngxa10 microsoft.public.vb.directx:4109 > >NNTP-Posting-Host: TKMSFTNGXA03 10.201.232.162 > >X-Tomcat-NG: microsoft.public.vb.directx > >>-----Original Message----- > >>this is primarily to update customers who got the PDC > >preview last Oct, > >There was a PDC preview?!!! > >Phil, I was at the PDC asking *everyone I could find* > >about DX in the .NET Framework! To a *man*, they all said > >there was no such thing and noone knew when there ever > >would be. > >And now I come to discover there was a PDC preview!? > >What, the $2000+ per (not to mention the wildly expensive > >hotel) we paid to sit in on an upcoming technologies > >conference doesn't expose us to all the relevant upcoming > >technologies? > >I vented a bit here, locally, until a friend of mine, a > >25-year veteran of IT in five different companies, > >said, "Welcome to the world of business." > >Listen. I have a demo I would sorely love to complete, > >under the .NET managed layers, in time for a 4th May > >trade show in my industry. It requires viewing of high- > >polygon-count 3D CAD images. I could use a managed-layer > >interface, *any* managed layer interface, to get this > >done and show the advantages of .NET to my employers. A > >simple SDI shell-and-menus isn't going to cut it, but if > >they can see some hardware-accelerated alpha blending, > >man, that sells seats of software, and that's the bottom > >line! > >I've already demonstrated to them that implementing new > >UI features takes a bazillionth of the time in .NET as > >they do in VB6 with COM libraries. There's only one > >selling point left, and this is it. > >Help me out here! We could have a .NET *product*, for > >sale to customers, out the door by DX9's release if you'd > >just help me out now! > >We return you now to your regular schedule of content- > >free platitudes and slipping shipdates. > >Rob
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Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:50:26 GMT |
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