future of c++ ? 
Author Message
 future of c++ ?

With the advent of C# why (besides uses existing code) would users want to
continue developing Windows applications in mc++ ? .NET exposes so much
funtionality to c# that is seems almost pointless to use it unless of course
you're coding for something else, I'm talking just windows apps and web
services ?

Is MS going to push c# even more in the future and do away or at least stop
evolving c++ ? maybe I'm missing the big picture ! ;)

Any one ?

Craig



Fri, 24 Sep 2004 03:58:34 GMT  
 future of c++ ?
   I use VC++ because for portability.

   On the serious side, it also takes offense to my attempts to enter ICE
mode.  I mean come on, isn't that the reason people use C#?  How do you
expect me to debug the kern... err, print "Hello World!" without ICE mode?
I mean come on, what's so difficult about...

__asm
{
    ICEBP;

Quote:
}

   I mean if I'm locked into a single architecture where's my wrapped up
access to the good stuff?  Further more, where's access to the probe control
register?  Well?  Yea, that's what I thought.

Jonathan Ross,  Got Opcode?  Go VC++!


Quote:
> With the advent of c# why (besides uses existing code) would users want to
> continue developing Windows applications in mc++ ? .NET exposes so much
> funtionality to c# that is seems almost pointless to use it unless of
course
> you're coding for something else, I'm talking just windows apps and web
> services ?

> Is MS going to push c# even more in the future and do away or at least
stop
> evolving c++ ? maybe I'm missing the big picture ! ;)

> Any one ?

> Craig



Fri, 24 Sep 2004 06:26:21 GMT  
 future of c++ ?

Quote:

> Is MS going to push c# even more in the future and do away or at least
> stop evolving c++ ? maybe I'm missing the big picture ! ;)

Hi Craig,
  As Jonathon already said, portability is an important asset of C++.  I'll
add a few other reasons why C++ is alive and well.  As you say, the .NET CLR
exposes a lot to C#, but it certainly won't expose everything.  C# is
designed on the idea of striking a balance between productivity/elegance and
power.  The Visual C++ team believes that restricting the power and
flexibility of a language does nothing but frustrate C++ developers.  As
more complex and neat features make their way into the .NET CLR, this
differentiation will become far more apparent.

Another important feature of C++ -- it is the only language supported by
Microsoft that can compile to both native code and MSIL.  Native code offers
a lot today, and certainly into the future that many developers require.
But more importantly, the seamless integration of native code and managed
code is something that only C++ offers.  With C#, you tend to lose type
safety when using P/Invoke, and having to redefine all the structs to common
system components can be a real pain.

I'm sure others will have their opinions on why C++ is still important.
Just from my point of view -- "C++ Rocks!"

--
Cheerio!
Brandon Bray                Program Manager in the Visual C++ Compiler Team

And now a word from the lawyers: This posting is provided "AS IS" with no
warranties, and confers no rights. You assume all risk for your use. ? 2002
Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.



Sat, 25 Sep 2004 00:26:04 GMT  
 future of c++ ?
Hi Craig,
I use it because it has a critical mass of tools and
compilers and it's an international standard.

I also use it because it doesn't restrict my design
choices in the way C# does (with no MI).

I also use it because with my own framework I can write
big apps that compile down to a mere 400/500K statically
linked.

C# strikes me as being a supermarket language, where the
designer just went down the language feature isles and
threw in anything he thought useful. The result isn't so
great.

If you want to examine a good language design look at
Dylan ;-)

Cheers,
Mark.

Quote:

> With the advent of c# why (besides uses existing code) would users want to
> continue developing Windows applications in mc++ ? .NET exposes so much
> funtionality to c# that is seems almost pointless to use it unless of course
> you're coding for something else, I'm talking just windows apps and web
> services ?

> Is MS going to push c# even more in the future and do away or at least stop
> evolving c++ ? maybe I'm missing the big picture ! ;)

> Any one ?

> Craig



Sat, 25 Sep 2004 01:44:17 GMT  
 future of c++ ?
Mark,

What do you feel is not so great about C#? It looks pretty well-designed to
me. Is it just that it can't do everything C++ can?

Kevin

Quote:
> Hi Craig,
> I use it because it has a critical mass of tools and
> compilers and it's an international standard.

> I also use it because it doesn't restrict my design
> choices in the way C# does (with no MI).

> I also use it because with my own framework I can write
> big apps that compile down to a mere 400/500K statically
> linked.

> C# strikes me as being a supermarket language, where the
> designer just went down the language feature isles and
> threw in anything he thought useful. The result isn't so
> great.

> If you want to examine a good language design look at
> Dylan ;-)

> Cheers,
> Mark.




- Show quoted text -

Quote:
> > With the advent of c# why (besides uses existing code) would users want
to
> > continue developing Windows applications in mc++ ? .NET exposes so much
> > funtionality to c# that is seems almost pointless to use it unless of
course
> > you're coding for something else, I'm talking just windows apps and web
> > services ?

> > Is MS going to push c# even more in the future and do away or at least
stop
> > evolving c++ ? maybe I'm missing the big picture ! ;)

> > Any one ?

> > Craig



Sat, 25 Sep 2004 05:13:22 GMT  
 future of c++ ?
This is what worries me, what if MS throw away c# like vb ? I understand why
they did it and I'm not saying they shouldn't have but the same could happen
to c# ...

thanks

Craig

Quote:


>  >[C++ is] an international standard.

> And you saw what happened to VB.  MS could, and did, do that because ...
> well, who's going to stop them?  MS couldn't with C/C++ because it no
> longer would be C or C++.

>  '`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`''`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`''`'`'`'`'`'`'`'
>  40th Floor - Software     Have iPAQ?  Pocket PC?  Get iPlay mp3 player.



Sat, 25 Sep 2004 07:37:59 GMT  
 future of c++ ?
thanks for the info.

From your point of view don't you find building large gui apps slow in mc++
? would you use c# forms
etc in an mc++ application ? or just stick to native mc++ code ?

regards,

Craig



Quote:

> > Is MS going to push c# even more in the future and do away or at least
> > stop evolving c++ ? maybe I'm missing the big picture ! ;)

> Hi Craig,
>   As Jonathon already said, portability is an important asset of C++.
I'll
> add a few other reasons why C++ is alive and well.  As you say, the .NET
CLR
> exposes a lot to C#, but it certainly won't expose everything.  C# is
> designed on the idea of striking a balance between productivity/elegance
and
> power.  The Visual C++ team believes that restricting the power and
> flexibility of a language does nothing but frustrate C++ developers.  As
> more complex and neat features make their way into the .NET CLR, this
> differentiation will become far more apparent.

> Another important feature of C++ -- it is the only language supported by
> Microsoft that can compile to both native code and MSIL.  Native code
offers
> a lot today, and certainly into the future that many developers require.
> But more importantly, the seamless integration of native code and managed
> code is something that only C++ offers.  With C#, you tend to lose type
> safety when using P/Invoke, and having to redefine all the structs to
common
> system components can be a real pain.

> I'm sure others will have their opinions on why C++ is still important.
> Just from my point of view -- "C++ Rocks!"

> --
> Cheerio!
> Brandon Bray                Program Manager in the Visual C++ Compiler
Team

> And now a word from the lawyers: This posting is provided "AS IS" with no
> warranties, and confers no rights. You assume all risk for your use. ?
2002
> Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.



Sat, 25 Sep 2004 07:39:09 GMT  
 future of c++ ?
in response to my own post I suppose if c# was dumped we'd just learn
whatever was new ?

i'm tired of learning new languages ! if I learn mc++/c++ will I be safe ;)
?

Craig


Quote:
> This is what worries me, what if MS throw away c# like vb ? I understand
why
> they did it and I'm not saying they shouldn't have but the same could
happen
> to c# ...

> thanks

> Craig



> >  >[C++ is] an international standard.

> > And you saw what happened to VB.  MS could, and did, do that because ...
> > well, who's going to stop them?  MS couldn't with C/C++ because it no
> > longer would be C or C++.

> >  '`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`''`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`''`'`'`'`'`'`'`'
> >  40th Floor - Software     Have iPAQ?  Pocket PC?  Get iPlay mp3 player.



Sat, 25 Sep 2004 07:41:55 GMT  
 future of c++ ?

Quote:

> > >[C++ is] an international standard.

> > And you saw what happened to VB.  MS could, and did, do that because ...
> > well, who's going to stop them?  MS couldn't with C/C++ because it no
> > longer would be C or C++.

> This is what worries me, what if MS throw away c# like vb ? I understand
> why they did it and I'm not saying they shouldn't have but the same could
> happen to c# ...

Hi Craig,
  I suppose I could pull the "C# is a standard too" line out of my hat.
Seriously, VB needed to be redesigned.  As it was, VB was simply not able to
express modern concepts.  Starting from scratch as it did for VB.NET has
given the language a lot more growing room.

But turning to the subject at hand, C++ is simply a language that a lot of
us like (irregardless of it being a recognized standard).  And that doesn't
even address the fact that there's a whole heck of a lot of C++ code out
there.  We have a real interest in making that code better.  If we were to
change the C++ language, we would by definition move out of a healthy
market, which isn't a reasonable thing to do.  (Note that unlike VB, C++ has
growing room).

I can say with confidence that all of us in Visual Studio are very much
devoted to supporting all five of the current languages we ship.

--
Cheerio!
Brandon Bray                Program Manager in the Visual C++ Compiler Team

And now a word from the lawyers: This posting is provided "AS IS" with no
warranties, and confers no rights. You assume all risk for your use. ? 2002
Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.



Sat, 25 Sep 2004 08:04:32 GMT  
 future of c++ ?

Quote:

> From your point of view don't you find building large gui apps slow in
> mc++ ? would you use c# forms etc in an mc++ application ? or just stick
> to native mc++ code ?

Hello again, :-)
  Building WinForms application with managed C++ is slow because Visual C++
.NET doesn't have a forms designer (you have to do it all by hand).  This is
something we're working on, so life should be much nicer in the future.

I have seen a number of people use C# or VB for the WinForms code, and
managed C++ for everything else.  That's one of the great things about
letting you use several different languages for the same application.

As for the last question, "or just stick to native mc++ code?", I need a
clarification.  Native and managed are oposing terms... one means compile to
machine instructions, and the other to MSIL.  Perhaps you were asking
whether to use MFC for GUI code?

--
Cheerio!
Brandon Bray                Program Manager in the Visual C++ Compiler Team

And now a word from the lawyers: This posting is provided "AS IS" with no
warranties, and confers no rights. You assume all risk for your use. ? 2002
Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.



Sat, 25 Sep 2004 08:12:56 GMT  
 future of c++ ?

Quote:
>I have seen a number of people use C# or VB for the WinForms code, and
>managed C++ for everything else.  That's one of the great things about
>letting you use several different languages for the same application.

... or an unfortunate consequence of not having the ease of doing it
all in your preferred language (C++) ;)

Besides, the WinForm designer should have used a non-programming
language input/output in the first place and then the problem wouldn't
have existed.

Sorry to rant, but I'm still amazed at however this decision was made.

Dave
--
MVP VC++ FAQ: http://www.mvps.org/vcfaq
My address is altered to discourage junk mail.
Please post responses to the newsgroup thread,
there's no need for follow-up email copies.



Sat, 25 Sep 2004 14:58:19 GMT  
 future of c++ ?


Quote:
> >I have seen a number of people use C# or VB for the WinForms code, and
> >managed C++ for everything else.  That's one of the great things about
> >letting you use several different languages for the same application.

> ... or an unfortunate consequence of not having the ease of doing it
> all in your preferred language (C++) ;)

Nonsense, this is great. Not only does it allow the language designers to
concentrate on a language's strengths, it also helps coders create
applications that are properly decoupled.
I always think that C++ should create the back end, and VB (or ASP) the
front. Different people can create each, depending on their strengths too.

Quote:

> Besides, the WinForm designer should have used a non-programming
> language input/output in the first place and then the problem wouldn't
> have existed.

> Sorry to rant, but I'm still amazed at however this decision was made.

AFAIK I don't care if some languages have a feature and some don't - as long
as they interoperate easily, the world is a happy place (especially if I can
then get a VB developer to write those boring front ends)( Same developers
will probably complain about the boring back ends that I write too....)

Actually, that is my biggest gripe about .NET - everything is becoming more
homogenous. VB should be so easy to use my manager can do it, C++ should be
so difficult he can't ;-)

Cheers, Andy.



Sat, 25 Sep 2004 18:26:57 GMT  
 future of c++ ?

Quote:
>> >I have seen a number of people use C# or VB for the WinForms code, and
>> >managed C++ for everything else.  That's one of the great things about
>> >letting you use several different languages for the same application.

>> ... or an unfortunate consequence of not having the ease of doing it
>> all in your preferred language (C++) ;)

>Nonsense, this is great.

If you want to do it, yes it is neat. I was just making the point that
in this context (lack of WinForm designer for C++), that it wasn't
really a plus point - just a necessity!

My experience has shown me that mixed language development introduces
problems (if only from having to understand the different languages)
and is generally something I prefer not to have to do. Hence why I
prefer C++ - because it allows me to do the high and low level things
elegantly (except use WinForms easily).

Quote:
>I always think that C++ should create the back end, and VB (or ASP) the
>front. Different people can create each, depending on their strengths too.

So you've personally never had to work (fix the{*filter*}-ups) in *all* the
areas of a project - including the bits you've not designed/developed?
Never found that you wish one little bit of a project's code was
written in the same (more low-level capable) language that another
part was in? Never wished that managing a multi-language project
wasn't so messy? Perhaps we work in different environments - or I'm
just an old whinger? :(

Dave
--
MVP VC++ FAQ: http://www.*-*-*.com/
My address is altered to discourage junk mail.
Please post responses to the newsgroup thread,
there's no need for follow-up email copies.



Sat, 25 Sep 2004 18:53:42 GMT  
 future of c++ ?
Hi,

Sorry for confusion on that last statement. I was meaning do you use mc++ to
do form design or use c# forms but you already answered it :)

thanks

Craig



Quote:

> > From your point of view don't you find building large gui apps slow in
> > mc++ ? would you use c# forms etc in an mc++ application ? or just stick
> > to native mc++ code ?

> Hello again, :-)
>   Building WinForms application with managed C++ is slow because Visual
C++
> .NET doesn't have a forms designer (you have to do it all by hand).  This
is
> something we're working on, so life should be much nicer in the future.

> I have seen a number of people use C# or VB for the WinForms code, and
> managed C++ for everything else.  That's one of the great things about
> letting you use several different languages for the same application.

> As for the last question, "or just stick to native mc++ code?", I need a
> clarification.  Native and managed are oposing terms... one means compile
to
> machine instructions, and the other to MSIL.  Perhaps you were asking
> whether to use MFC for GUI code?

> --
> Cheerio!
> Brandon Bray                Program Manager in the Visual C++ Compiler
Team

> And now a word from the lawyers: This posting is provided "AS IS" with no
> warranties, and confers no rights. You assume all risk for your use. ?
2002
> Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.



Sat, 25 Sep 2004 22:07:29 GMT  
 future of c++ ?

Quote:

> I can say with confidence that all of us in Visual Studio are very much
> devoted to supporting all five of the current languages we ship.

That's great news, I just wish you'd focused on C++
a bit earlier, then I might've had a compiler capable
of compling my libraries ;-)

Cheers,
Mark.



Sun, 26 Sep 2004 01:40:14 GMT  
 
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