I liked TCL, i love LUA 
Author Message
 I liked TCL, i love LUA

Hi,

If some people are interested, i'm gonna tell you why i decided to stop
using TCL
and to start a new adventure with LUA  (see
http://www.*-*-*.com/ ; )

I work with 4 other people in a team developping huge applications (running
under Linux
and OSF1) dedicated to process-control. The core of these applications is
written in C and
uses TK for the GUI and scripting - fast drawing is done thru Xlib.

After 3 years of development with it, we think we 've reached the limits of
TCL:
it s too slow and the GUI doesn't look that great. To get the kind of
functions
clients expect nowadays we have to use all the TK extensions: Itcl, Tix,
BLT,
Bwidget and many others (an incomplete HTML widget, tree widget, ...)

The result ? Un-consistent look & feel, un-consistent API's and so on ...
debugging is often sluggish ( the TCL / C mix is painfull when debugging
embedded TCL code).

Now we have to port all the stuff to Windows. Arg.
Have u ever seen Tix under MS Windows ? Forget that.

There is the Bwidget solution: concentrate on 1 extension and rewrite what's
missing in it.
The look & feel seems right but don't look too close at details ...
And yes, that's 10 layers of script (!) above a Xlib emulation that is now
somewhat faster (?)
under Win32 but after many patches now present in the core distribution
(right ?)

We 'd have to rewrite an important part of the GUI to use BWidget both under
Linux, OSF1
and Win32... And this is some kind of temporary solution in my opinion.

Conclusion ?

I decided to --> FORGET <-- TCL and use LUA.

This is not Lua advocacy but Lua is much faster, the C core is light and
clean,
the scripts are clean. There are builtin debug facilities ( not need of a
poor TclPro).
There are a few ( clean :) ) extensions. Yes clean is the word ...
AND last but not least LUA allows direct mapping of C++ classes (thru an
extension working
in the way SWIG does ...).

And the GUI ? Well i decided to make my own LUA extension based on a
portable
GUI library. I choosed wxWindows / wxGTK (see http://www.*-*-*.com/ )

The result ? Great perfomances, perfect look & feel under Windows and GTK
(it follows
the themes used in Gnome under Linux) , all the widgets i need and many more
(even a fast html widget : )), DnD support (those never ending discussions
about Dnd in
Tk make me laugh now), no extension needed to read JPG or PNG files ...

It took me 1 month to get (nearly) all the wxWindows stuff work in Lua, plus
some extensions
like a XML parser and database (ODBC + Postgres) support. I think that month
of hard work
was worth it ...

I plan to make all this stuff available soon for all Lua users and perhaps
(?) some interested
TCL users :)

Ok guys tell me what you think BUT I liked TCL, now i love LUA.

Olivier Paquay




Fri, 17 Jan 2003 03:00:00 GMT  
 I liked TCL, i love LUA

Quote:
> Hi,

> If some people are interested, i'm gonna tell you why i decided to stop
> using TCL
> and to start a new adventure with LUA  (see
> http://www.tecgraf.puc-rio.br/lua/   )

[snip]

Quote:
> Ok guys tell me what you think BUT I liked TCL, now i love LUA.

Good for you! It's always great to find a new tool that works better than
your old one.

Personally, I'll stick with tcl/tk. :-)



Fri, 17 Jan 2003 03:00:00 GMT  
 I liked TCL, i love LUA

Quote:

> If some people are interested, i'm gonna tell you why i decided to stop using TCL
> and to start a new adventure with LUA  (see http://www.tecgraf.puc-rio.br/lua/   )

> I work with 4 other people in a team developping huge applications (running
> under Linux and OSF1) dedicated to process-control. The core of these applications is
> written in C and uses TK for the GUI and scripting - fast drawing is done thru Xlib.

> After 3 years of development with it, we think we 've reached the limits of TCL:
> it s too slow and the GUI doesn't look that great. To get the kind of functions
> clients expect nowadays we have to use all the TK extensions: Itcl, Tix, BLT,
> Bwidget and many others (an incomplete HTML widget, tree widget, ...)

> Conclusion ?

> I decided to --> FORGET <-- TCL and use LUA.
> GUI library. I choosed wxWindows / wxGTK (see http://www.wxwindows.org )
> The result ? Great perfomances, perfect look & feel under Windows and GTK (it follows
> the themes used in Gnome under Linux) , all the widgets i need and many more
> (even a fast html widget : )), DnD support (those never ending discussions about Dnd in
> Tk make me laugh now), no extension needed to read JPG or PNG files ...

Thanks for the information.  What you've highlighted is the need for
Tcl/Tk community to support John Ousterhout's OpenTcl inititiative.  As
you have described, we (the Tcl/Tk community) have all the parts.  We
need to just put them together.  

Development of both Tcl and Tk has certainly lagged in the last couple
of years.  But with the combination of the talents in the Tcl community
and a truly open Tcl/Tk development process, I see this dramatically
changing.

I wish you success with wxwindows and LUA.   But I still think Tcl and Tk
are a better vehicle for application development.  And things should
only get better...

--gah



Sun, 19 Jan 2003 03:00:00 GMT  
 I liked TCL, i love LUA


:If some people are interested, i'm gonna tell you why i decided to stop
:using TCL
:and to start a new adventure with LUA  (see
:http://www.tecgraf.puc-rio.br/lua/   )

While I found your piece interesting, I notice that you didn't cross post
to comp.lang.lua - oh wait, there is no newsgroup for Lua.  
Well, at least you have some wonderful text books like Welch's Practical
Programming, for learning lua, right?  Or perhaps a couple or three dozen
other books which use Lua as an implementation language while solving
various problems?  And I suspect that Lua has several thousand applications
and almost a thousand extensions and add-ons for taking care of all the
various work you have need to do in the future?  And there is probably several
major web sites providing community workspaces for solving problems, helping
users, etc.?

Lua, as well as many other languages, are all likely to be wonderful languages,
for individuals looking for personal solutions.  And many of them will evolve
in their own unique and important ways.

Tcl has numerous shortcomings.  Your list is an important one - I surely hope
that a number of these catch various developers attention and they work
on solutions to them.

Thanks for sharing your experiences!
--
<URL: https://secure.paypal.com/refer/pal=lvirden%40yahoo.com>

Unless explicitly stated to the contrary, nothing in this posting
should be construed as representing my employer's opinions.



Mon, 20 Jan 2003 03:00:00 GMT  
 I liked TCL, i love LUA

Quote:

> Tcl has numerous shortcomings.  Your list is an important one - I surely hope
> that a number of these catch various developers attention and they work
> on solutions to them.

Tcl should be prepared to learn from all other languages that there are. LUA
has some interesting error handling mechanisms similar to Tcl's [unknown]
command handler which bear some looking at.

In philosophy and origin it is very similar to Tcl, however some of the
comparisons in the papers are seriously out of date (papers cannot really be
modified) and a page describing the current situation would be fairer.



Mon, 20 Jan 2003 03:00:00 GMT  
 I liked TCL, i love LUA
Hi,

As i explained in my first post i decided to use Lua because i could not
find good solutions to my problems
with TK right now. I say TK and not TCL because i use TCL as an extension
langage for scripted GUI
and not as a stand alone langage. As a GUI Toolkit, Tk has too many
limitations in my own opinion.

Besides the core of my applications are written in C/C++ and there are
excellent open source toolkits available
and WxWindows is perhaps the best. What i did is a rebuild of my application
with that library. Since i like
(and i need for my customers ) scripted GUI i made the choice to use Lua
because it s light (i don t need the extra TCL libs since i have them in
C/C++ libs) and VERY easy to use as a script langage.

If TCL is more than an extension langage for your work then OK changing to
Lua is not an ideal solution because
LUA does not  have rich libraries, Lua does not have a strong community, the
cool support found in newsgroups
like comp.tcl, there are no O'Reilly books and so on ... But if you need a
scripting langage as an extension base
for your App then Lua has 20 or so commands and it s enough for that work.

I made my extension to fulfill my needs after much reflexion. I never said
"I forgot TCL, u have to forget it too".
If some people are intrested in this particular work, they can contact me.

By the way i decided to make this extension soon available as a TCL
extension because it does not require too much
work to make it.

TCL is great, believe me. I like many aspects like data channels --
fantastic stuff !!!! but i don like TK much.

Olivier Paquay.

PS whatever i wrote i used TCL everyday for little scripts that can t be
done easuly with anything else :)



Tue, 21 Jan 2003 03:00:00 GMT  
 I liked TCL, i love LUA
Why not write widget extensions using WxWindows for TCL? I've seen other
extensions
for Motif and such out there. That way people don't have to learn yet another
syntax and you avoid all the growing pains involved with using a new language
and
development environment. <side remark>Its too bad that Tix got orphaned. Its one
of the best,
if not the best, widget set for TCL out there. Perhaps the its appearance on
windows could have been
fixed up a bit. </side remark>

Good Luck.

Rob Ratcliff

Quote:

> Hi,

> As i explained in my first post i decided to use Lua because i could not
> find good solutions to my problems
> with TK right now. I say TK and not TCL because i use TCL as an extension
> langage for scripted GUI
> and not as a stand alone langage. As a GUI Toolkit, Tk has too many
> limitations in my own opinion.

> Besides the core of my applications are written in C/C++ and there are
> excellent open source toolkits available
> and WxWindows is perhaps the best. What i did is a rebuild of my application
> with that library. Since i like
> (and i need for my customers ) scripted GUI i made the choice to use Lua
> because it s light (i don t need the extra TCL libs since i have them in
> C/C++ libs) and VERY easy to use as a script langage.

> If TCL is more than an extension langage for your work then OK changing to
> Lua is not an ideal solution because
> LUA does not  have rich libraries, Lua does not have a strong community, the
> cool support found in newsgroups
> like comp.tcl, there are no O'Reilly books and so on ... But if you need a
> scripting langage as an extension base
> for your App then Lua has 20 or so commands and it s enough for that work.

> I made my extension to fulfill my needs after much reflexion. I never said
> "I forgot TCL, u have to forget it too".
> If some people are intrested in this particular work, they can contact me.

> By the way i decided to make this extension soon available as a TCL
> extension because it does not require too much
> work to make it.

> TCL is great, believe me. I like many aspects like data channels --
> fantastic stuff !!!! but i don like TK much.

> Olivier Paquay.

> PS whatever i wrote i used TCL everyday for little scripts that can t be
> done easuly with anything else :)



Sat, 08 Feb 2003 03:00:00 GMT  
 I liked TCL, i love LUA
Hello,

In fact i rewrote the whole Lua extension to work with TCL. wxTCL (i am no
sure of the name i ll give to it) will be a standard extension usable with a
simple "package require". It will offer many widgets found in wxWindows with
the advantage of exact look and feel under Windows and Gnome. The widgets
will work in exactly the same way as the TK widgets. Last but no least you
ll be able to mix wxWindows widgets and Tk ones in the same window :).

I am now in the last debugging phase and i will propose this extension in 1
week or 2 to the TCL community ...

 It would be nice if some people could help me test it ... I think this
extension might interest many people who feel that Tk miss some goodies but
like what is great in TK ( text and canvas are great )

I ll make a post as soon as it is good enough. I am very interested by any
advice, encouragment, help proposal for testing ....

Olivier Paquay



Quote:
> Why not write widget extensions using WxWindows for TCL? I've seen other
> extensions
> for Motif and such out there. That way people don't have to learn yet
another
> syntax and you avoid all the growing pains involved with using a new
language
> and
> development environment. <side remark>Its too bad that Tix got orphaned.
Its one
> of the best,
> if not the best, widget set for TCL out there. Perhaps the its appearance
on
> windows could have been
> fixed up a bit. </side remark>

> Good Luck.

> Rob Ratcliff


> > Hi,

> > As i explained in my first post i decided to use Lua because i could not
> > find good solutions to my problems
> > with TK right now. I say TK and not TCL because i use TCL as an
extension
> > langage for scripted GUI
> > and not as a stand alone langage. As a GUI Toolkit, Tk has too many
> > limitations in my own opinion.

> > Besides the core of my applications are written in C/C++ and there are
> > excellent open source toolkits available
> > and WxWindows is perhaps the best. What i did is a rebuild of my
application
> > with that library. Since i like
> > (and i need for my customers ) scripted GUI i made the choice to use Lua
> > because it s light (i don t need the extra TCL libs since i have them in
> > C/C++ libs) and VERY easy to use as a script langage.

> > If TCL is more than an extension langage for your work then OK changing
to
> > Lua is not an ideal solution because
> > LUA does not  have rich libraries, Lua does not have a strong community,
the
> > cool support found in newsgroups
> > like comp.tcl, there are no O'Reilly books and so on ... But if you need
a
> > scripting langage as an extension base
> > for your App then Lua has 20 or so commands and it s enough for that
work.

> > I made my extension to fulfill my needs after much reflexion. I never
said
> > "I forgot TCL, u have to forget it too".
> > If some people are intrested in this particular work, they can contact
me.

> > By the way i decided to make this extension soon available as a TCL
> > extension because it does not require too much
> > work to make it.

> > TCL is great, believe me. I like many aspects like data channels --
> > fantastic stuff !!!! but i don like TK much.

> > Olivier Paquay.

> > PS whatever i wrote i used TCL everyday for little scripts that can t be
> > done easuly with anything else :)



Sat, 08 Feb 2003 03:00:00 GMT  
 I liked TCL, i love LUA


                        .
                        .
                        .
Quote:
>development environment. <side remark>Its too bad that Tix got orphaned. Its one
>of the best,
>if not the best, widget set for TCL out there. Perhaps the its appearance on
>windows could have been
>fixed up a bit. </side remark>

                        .
                        .
                        .
This is not like the real world, where orphans end up in
court, and only the lawyers benefit.  This is OpenSourceLand.

I'll be more explicit:  Tix is ripe for adoption.  I have
heard MANY people say, "what a shame about Tix".  All it takes
is one person to say, "what an opportunity all that nearly-
working Tix source represents."  One person who seriously
begins to care for Tix will find a lot of helpers pitching
in.

I'm not volunteering.  Tix is not for me, at that level.
However, I've contributed small corrections in the past,
and I'd start again, once someone else commits to maintaining
the source in good shape.  I'm sure others will do the same.
--


Business:  http://www.Phaseit.net
Personal:  http://starbase.neosoft.com/~claird/home.html



Sat, 08 Feb 2003 03:00:00 GMT  
 I liked TCL, i love LUA

Quote:

> This is not like the real world, where orphans end up in
> court, and only the lawyers benefit.  This is OpenSourceLand.

> I'll be more explicit:  Tix is ripe for adoption.  I have
> heard MANY people say, "what a shame about Tix".  All it takes
> is one person to say, "what an opportunity all that nearly-
> working Tix source represents."  One person who seriously
> begins to care for Tix will find a lot of helpers pitching
> in.

And if anyone wants to help out with Tix, you should go
to:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/tix/

--Dan



Sat, 08 Feb 2003 03:00:00 GMT  
 I liked TCL, i love LUA
Hello,

I do not want to start a "political" and/or "philosophical" discussion, but
being a time where some
are really curious about where Tcl/Tk will go, may be this is worth thinking
about?!

I do not have deep knowledge of Tcl and Tk at all, meaning of all the
"internals". I am using it
to create applications, which are easy to customize, and, at least in the
beginning 5 years ago,
Tk was a great tool to build GUIs. I am not even using the "C-level", only
pure scripting.

My decision at that time was based on the functionality of Tcl and a big pro
was Tk. It took me
a long time to convince my customers.

Now, customers are also grown up (at least a bit) and they also know what
Tcl/Tk is, and, the worst
thing, they also know about the discussions of the last months. AT the
moment, it is difficult to argue for
Tcl/Tk, but here questions like "what about python and wxWindows?

My feeling is, at lot has been done in Tcl, but almost nothing happend in
Tk!

Building an "up to date" GUI is time-consuming enough, but be honest - Tk
just does not provide the
tools to easily create a GUI for all those (like it or not!) Windows users.
Sorry, but Windows is the
standard, and arguments like "there is a package, which does that and that".
At the moment, I spend
more time in looking for packages, or updates of them, testing them, find
out that they do NOT help,
and end up with trying to produce something of my own, comeing as close as I
can to what people expect.
It is no fun!!

So I playes around with Python (sorry!) and wxPython. I will not switch from
Tcl to Python (for whatever reason)
but I think, it is worth looking at wxWindows. I found all the tools you
need to build a GUI in ONE package,
with good native look and feel and good performance and easy to use!

So I really liked to read Olivier Paquay's message, and I am very much
lookin forward to wxTcl (good name!).
Please implement all the stuff from wxWindows (and please give me a note,
when it is ready for testing!).

I think, the Tcl-Core-Group really should think about it!!

Henning
(a bit frustrated Tcl/Tk user)

eMails:


home:
www.ferber-hanusa.de



Sat, 08 Feb 2003 03:00:00 GMT  
 I liked TCL, i love LUA
Regarding "packages" I suppose you may not want to know
about more of them. However I was quite impressed with mkwidgets.
The multicolumn listbox and tree are built on the text widget
and appear very robust and look good. They also have good key
stroke bindings. I encourage you to try this set megawidgets.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mmg_kraus/tclcornr.htm

Cheers,
Roy

Quote:

> Hello,

> I do not want to start a "political" and/or "philosophical" discussion, but
> being a time where some
> are really curious about where Tcl/Tk will go, may be this is worth thinking
> about?!

> I do not have deep knowledge of Tcl and Tk at all, meaning of all the
> "internals". I am using it
> to create applications, which are easy to customize, and, at least in the
> beginning 5 years ago,
> Tk was a great tool to build GUIs. I am not even using the "C-level", only
> pure scripting.

> My decision at that time was based on the functionality of Tcl and a big pro
> was Tk. It took me
> a long time to convince my customers.

> Now, customers are also grown up (at least a bit) and they also know what
> Tcl/Tk is, and, the worst
> thing, they also know about the discussions of the last months. AT the
> moment, it is difficult to argue for
> Tcl/Tk, but here questions like "what about Python and wxWindows?

> My feeling is, at lot has been done in Tcl, but almost nothing happend in
> Tk!

> Building an "up to date" GUI is time-consuming enough, but be honest - Tk
> just does not provide the
> tools to easily create a GUI for all those (like it or not!) Windows users.
> Sorry, but Windows is the
> standard, and arguments like "there is a package, which does that and that".
> At the moment, I spend
> more time in looking for packages, or updates of them, testing them, find
> out that they do NOT help,
> and end up with trying to produce something of my own, comeing as close as I
> can to what people expect.
> It is no fun!!

> So I playes around with Python (sorry!) and wxPython. I will not switch from
> Tcl to Python (for whatever reason)
> but I think, it is worth looking at wxWindows. I found all the tools you
> need to build a GUI in ONE package,
> with good native look and feel and good performance and easy to use!

> So I really liked to read Olivier Paquay's message, and I am very much
> lookin forward to wxTcl (good name!).
> Please implement all the stuff from wxWindows (and please give me a note,
> when it is ready for testing!).

> I think, the Tcl-Core-Group really should think about it!!

> Henning
> (a bit frustrated Tcl/Tk user)

> eMails:


> home:
> www.ferber-hanusa.de



Sun, 09 Feb 2003 08:46:14 GMT  
 
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