RedHat Declares TCL Dead! 
Author Message
 RedHat Declares TCL Dead!

Found in pgsql-general...

Quote:
<an innocent bystander> writes:


> > > For Immediate Release                            February 5th, 2002

> > >  After almost a full year of development since PostgreSQL v7.1 was
> > > released, the PostgreSQL Global Development Group is proud to announce the
> > > availability of our latest development milestone ... PostgreSQL v7.2,
> > > another step forward for the project.

> > RPMs for Red Hat Linux 7.2 can be found at http://www.*-*-*.com/

> Why is just plperl included ?

> What about pl/python

There is no shared python library. Linking in static libraries in
dynamic extensions doesn't work on most platforms.

Quote:
> and pl/tcl (I hope pl/pgsql is there somewhere) ?

The postgresql-tcl package contains that, FTTB, but tcl is pretty much
dead anyway...
--
Trond Eivind Glomsr?d
Red Hat, Inc.

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Sun, 25 Jul 2004 02:19:46 GMT  
 RedHat Declares TCL Dead!
Quote:

> Found in pgsql-general...

> <an innocent bystander> writes:



>>>>For Immediate Release                           February 5th, 2002

>>>>        After almost a full year of development since PostgreSQL v7.1 was
>>>>released, the PostgreSQL Global Development Group is proud to announce the
>>>>availability of our latest development milestone ... PostgreSQL v7.2,
>>>>another step forward for the project.

>>>RPMs for Red Hat Linux 7.2 can be found at http://people.redhat.com/teg/pg/

>>Why is just plperl included ?

>>What about pl/python

> There is no shared python library. Linking in static libraries in
> dynamic extensions doesn't work on most platforms.

>>and pl/tcl (I hope pl/pgsql is there somewhere) ?

> The postgresql-tcl package contains that, FTTB, but tcl is pretty much
> dead anyway...

Interesting. What does this man know that we do not? Any ideas?

Michael Schlenker



Sun, 25 Jul 2004 02:43:56 GMT  
 RedHat Declares TCL Dead!

:> The postgresql-tcl package contains that, FTTB, but tcl is pretty much
:> dead anyway...
:>
:Interesting. What does this man know that we do not? Any ideas?

Perhaps there are some in the active Linux development community, having
not seen an official release of Tcl in many months, knowing that one of
Tcl's most popular extensions (Tk) does not, out of the box, make use
of KDE, GNOME, Windows, or MacOS themes, etc., noticing that there have
been no new books about Tcl for a year or two, that Tcl is no longer being
taught at OSCON, Usenix, LinuxWorld, etc. has come to the conclusion that
the majority of users in the world do not know Tcl.

Why not ask the original poster what his/her definition of 'dead' is - perhaps
by using that definition, tcl IS dead?
--
"I know of vanishingly few people ... who choose to use ksh." "I'm a minority!"

Even if explicitly stated to the contrary, nothing in this posting
should be construed as representing my employer's opinions.



Sun, 25 Jul 2004 03:17:57 GMT  
 RedHat Declares TCL Dead!

Quote:
> > The postgresql-tcl package contains that, FTTB, but tcl is pretty much
> > dead anyway...

> Interesting. What does this man know that we do not? Any ideas?

I don't know what he means exactly, but he's right anyway. Tcl *is*
dead. Ok, it isn't totally dead yet, but it is dying.

Why? Because there is no "Tcl" anymore. There is Tcl at Sourceforge and
Tcl from Activestate and lots of extensions floating around, but there
is no (more) defined Tcl you can count on to meet on an average
system. And there is no clean way to require/find/install anything. If
you're developing Tcl/Tk applications there's nothing to rely
on. Actually you're not far from being forced to use it as an {*filter*}
library you better distribute with your application including every
extension you need if you don't want to force your users to hunt around
the net, picking up this and that in a myriad of versions.

Sorry, but Tcl is like an ancient building which is used best by just
breaking stones out of it you happen to need. Ok, this is the state of
the whole IT shebang alltogether, so don't worry. Tcl is just very
advanced in this regard.

And I don't mean to say ugly things here, I love Tcl and Tk, still. It's
just like most girls I used to love, they are quite hard to get a hold
on...

I would *really* like to see (again) a discussion 'bout the future of
Tcl/Tk, especially with regard to distribution, extensions and
libraries. What is happening right now is a shame.

        Jochem



Sun, 25 Jul 2004 03:46:36 GMT  
 RedHat Declares TCL Dead!

Quote:
> The postgresql-tcl package contains that, FTTB, but tcl is pretty much
> dead anyway...
> --
> Trond Eivind Glomsr?d
> Red Hat, Inc.

Well, I can speak a little about the internal company mind-set that
would have lead to this conclusion. The folks in NC believe that
anything that is not GNOME derived is just play software. Upper
management at Red Hat seems to be just as clue-less as upper
management at other companies, so even bad ideas like "lets do it
in Java" catch on there too. Also, there is a rabid Python promoting
streak which vilified both Perl and Tcl inside the company.

This all lead up to canning all development on the Source-Navigator
IDE. After 6 months or more of flailing around (oops, I mean
"competitive analysis") they decided to try to write an IDE in
Java. They have now teamed up with IBM on an amazing waste of
time called Eclipse. I just don't see how this project is not
going to go down in flames.

cheers
Mo DeJong



Sun, 25 Jul 2004 06:43:34 GMT  
 RedHat Declares TCL Dead!
Well, the gnome lords are all over the place talking about the
wonders of C#, pissing off RMS no end.
There's never a shortage of hubris, and hamartia's a {*filter*}!
Quote:

> Well, I can speak a little about the internal company mind-set that
> would have lead to this conclusion. The folks in NC believe that
> anything that is not GNOME derived is just play software. Upper
> management at Red Hat seems to be just as clue-less as upper
> management at other companies, so even bad ideas like "lets do it
> in Java" catch on there too. Also, there is a rabid Python promoting
> streak which vilified both Perl and Tcl inside the company.



Sun, 25 Jul 2004 08:45:16 GMT  
 RedHat Declares TCL Dead!
Well, the gnome lords are all over the place talking about the
wonders of C#, pissing off RMS no end.
There's never a shortage of hubris, and hamartia's a {*filter*}!
Quote:

> Well, I can speak a little about the internal company mind-set that
> would have lead to this conclusion. The folks in NC believe that
> anything that is not GNOME derived is just play software. Upper
> management at Red Hat seems to be just as clue-less as upper
> management at other companies, so even bad ideas like "lets do it
> in Java" catch on there too. Also, there is a rabid Python promoting
> streak which vilified both Perl and Tcl inside the company.



Sun, 25 Jul 2004 08:49:09 GMT  
 RedHat Declares TCL Dead!

Quote:

>Well, the gnome lords are all over the place talking about the
>wonders of C#, pissing off RMS no end.
>There's never a shortage of hubris, and hamartia's a {*filter*}!


>> Well, I can speak a little about the internal company mind-set that
>> would have lead to this conclusion. The folks in NC believe that
>> anything that is not GNOME derived is just play software. Upper
>> management at Red Hat seems to be just as clue-less as upper
>> management at other companies, so even bad ideas like "lets do it
>> in Java" catch on there too. Also, there is a rabid Python promoting
>> streak which vilified both Perl and Tcl inside the company.

Competing technologies do wonders for quality products..

Now if only I could get cygwin to run under wine all the while running in a
linux emulator on top of XP...  yeah, that's the ticket..  forward slash quoting
hell should be a blast :)

Anybody got a .NET runtime for Solaris?  I have these DCOM asp server components
I want to use through apache...
--

[species: human; planet: earth,milkyway,alpha sector]
Please be aware of the 7.5 year ping times when placing a call from alpha centari



Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:03:17 GMT  
 RedHat Declares TCL Dead!

Quote:

> Found in pgsql-general...

> <an innocent bystander> writes:



> > > > For Immediate Release                               February 5th, 2002

> > > >     After almost a full year of development since PostgreSQL v7.1 was
> > > > released, the PostgreSQL Global Development Group is proud to announce the
> > > > availability of our latest development milestone ... PostgreSQL v7.2,
> > > > another step forward for the project.

> > > RPMs for Red Hat Linux 7.2 can be found at http://people.redhat.com/teg/pg/

> > Why is just plperl included ?

> > What about pl/python

> There is no shared python library. Linking in static libraries in
> dynamic extensions doesn't work on most platforms.

> > and pl/tcl (I hope pl/pgsql is there somewhere) ?

> The postgresql-tcl package contains that, FTTB, but tcl is pretty much
> dead anyway...

Cross point from a dummie(I my self):

Is it true that MicroSoft bought Red Hat ?



Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:28:57 GMT  
 RedHat Declares TCL Dead!

Quote:

> > The postgresql-tcl package contains that, FTTB, but tcl is pretty much
> > dead anyway...
> > --
> > Trond Eivind Glomsr?d
> > Red Hat, Inc.

> Well, I can speak a little about the internal company mind-set that
> would have lead to this conclusion. The folks in NC believe that
> anything that is not GNOME derived is just play software. Upper
> management at Red Hat seems to be just as clue-less as upper
> management at other companies, so even bad ideas like "lets do it
> in Java" catch on there too. Also, there is a rabid Python promoting
> streak which vilified both Perl and Tcl inside the company.

> This all lead up to canning all development on the Source-Navigator
> IDE. After 6 months or more of flailing around (oops, I mean
> "competitive analysis") they decided to try to write an IDE in
> Java. They have now teamed up with IBM on an amazing waste of
> time called Eclipse. I just don't see how this project is not
> going to go down in flames.

Humm, that's too bad...I wonder what they will think after a few
months of development of this new IDE?

This is actually the second time that he has said that Tcl is dead. I
sent his previous message to c.l.t. about month ago. He eluded to his
reasoning why Tcl is dead in his first message. He basically said that
there was only one complaint to RedHat about the Tcl library for
PostgreSQL (a problem loading the lib)...so there must have been only
one person using the Tcl lib. I guess this is an example of scientific
reasoning at its best ;^)

--brett



Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:42:21 GMT  
 RedHat Declares TCL Dead!
        ...

Quote:
> Why? Because there is no "Tcl" anymore. There is Tcl at Sourceforge and
> Tcl from Activestate and lots of extensions floating around, but there
> is no (more) defined Tcl you can count on to meet on an average system.

I'm not quite sure what kind of broken systems you must have to
deal with are, but the core of Tcl has been solid for years and
continues to produce many, many workable apps.  The Tcl at SF is
the core, and ActiveState builds directly based on sources there.
We add extensions to it, but all of them are also open source,
most also at SF.  The two main Linux distros, SuSE and RedHat,
both distribute the latest stable Tcl with extensions.  Most
other OS vendors distribute at least 8.0 with whatever "extras"
CD they provide.

Quote:
> And there is no clean way to require/find/install anything. If
> you're developing Tcl/Tk applications there's nothing to rely on.

It's all open, so it's always going to be there to rely on.  The
requiring and finding may need work, but it also isn't rocket
science.

Quote:
> I would *really* like to see (again) a discussion 'bout the future of
> Tcl/Tk, especially with regard to distribution, extensions and
> libraries. What is happening right now is a shame.

So start one.  This is also an open community.  Also remember that
if you aren't willing to help, then there isn't much point in
rattling your sabre (see Mo's apt "whine" comment).  The system
is very open to assistance.

--
  Jeff Hobbs                     The Tcl Guy
  Senior Developer               http://www.ActiveState.com/
      Tcl Support and Productivity Solutions



Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:10:48 GMT  
 RedHat Declares TCL Dead!
 > The postgresql-tcl package contains that, FTTB, but tcl is pretty much
 > dead anyway...

That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.



Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:41:52 GMT  
 RedHat Declares TCL Dead!

Quote:

> Cross point from a dummie(I my self):

> Is it true that MicroSoft bought Red Hat ?

Not Microsoft, but AOL Warner, but similar results. :O)
PHampl
--
------------------------------------------

GN Resources CZ         http://www.gncz.cz
Ve Smeckach 20          tel: +420-2-96337821 <<NEW!
11000 Praha 1, CZ


Sun, 25 Jul 2004 16:53:45 GMT  
 
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