A Python IDE idea - looking for input 
Author Message
 A Python IDE idea - looking for input

This is no guarantee such a product would be started, just looking for
input on a potential future product.

The model of the ide would come directly from Visual Basic. This
includes such things as project manager on the side. The project
manager would be such that you could do advanced things like in MSVC.
It would support such things as 'Make EXE file' using py2exe, support
debugging just like vb does - example, put break points on valid
lines. Have auto list members. Support an immediate window where you
can put together python statements almost like you can in the
interpreter now. With exception that it would also allow you to
perform operations within the scope of the paused program (assuming
this is possible).

Differences from vb would include no form editor (i don't see one
needed to begin with).

The language I would think of using for such a project would be c++
with wxWindows.

Another feature that might work well is to allow this program to be
used as an editor for python code like vb allows for msoffice apps
(and other apps that buy vba).

Any ideas welcome,
Regards,
Jeffrey Drake



Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:53:28 GMT  
 A Python IDE idea - looking for input

Quote:
> This is no guarantee such a product would be started, just looking for
> input on a potential future product.

> The model of the ide would come directly from Visual Basic. This
> includes such things as project manager on the side. The project
> manager would be such that you could do advanced things like in MSVC.

"Advanced things" is a somewhat vague concept. Still, let's include it along
with apple pie and motherhood, two other features that Americans wouldn't
want to be without :-)

Quote:
> It would support such things as 'Make EXE file' using py2exe, support
> debugging just like vb does - example, put break points on valid
> lines. Have auto list members. Support an immediate window where you
> can put together python statements almost like you can in the
> interpreter now. With exception that it would also allow you to
> perform operations within the scope of the paused program (assuming
> this is possible).

Sounds a bit like PythonWin, BlackAdder, Archeopteryx, wxDesigner,
ActiveState's Mozilla-based product that does Python and Perl, and
PythonWorks. These are some current projects you should be aware of to begin
thinking about development for this market. PythonWin, for example, has some
quite advanced debugging features. Come to think of it, you could do much
worse that hire Mark Hammond (PythonWin's author) to consult on this design.
I seem to remember he has some time available currently.

Quote:
> Differences from vb would include no form editor (i don't see one
> needed to begin with).

Besides which there's a confusing selection of GUIs to choose from, as
witness the immense debates that occur periodically when a newbie innocently
asks "which GUI should I use".

Quote:
> The language I would think of using for such a project would be c++
> with wxWindows.

Erm, wouldn't Python be a faster alternative? Once the initial
implementation was complete you could optimise the really slow bits (if
there were any) in C or C++.

Quote:
> Another feature that might work well is to allow this program to be
> used as an editor for python code like vb allows for msoffice apps
> (and other apps that buy vba).

Except that you'd need apps that "buy" Python to use such a feature.

Quote:
> Any ideas welcome,

Keep up the thinking, but examine the current landscape. A variety of tools
are available, but at present there's no refactoring browser, for example
(unless PythonWorks now includes it, I only just got round to downloading a
demo copy). Rather than trying to emulate what's been done with other
languages it might be more fruitful to aim at what Python programmers really
need.

Just my two penn'orth. Good luck.

regards
 Steve
--
http://www.holdenweb.com/



Tue, 22 Jun 2004 06:33:16 GMT  
 A Python IDE idea - looking for input
Check out open source Software Development IDE Eclipse.

http://www.eclipse.org

(maybe stuff from jedit would be useful here)

--
Brad Clements, DevNet Sysop 5
Developer Network Sysop Team

-----=  Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News  =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
 Check out our new Unlimited Server. No Download or Time Limits!
-----==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers!  ==-----



Tue, 22 Jun 2004 06:43:04 GMT  
 A Python IDE idea - looking for input
On Thu, 3 Jan 2002 17:33:16 -0500, "Steve Holden"

Quote:


>> This is no guarantee such a product would be started, just looking for
>> input on a potential future product.

>> The model of the ide would come directly from Visual Basic. This
>> includes such things as project manager on the side. The project
>> manager would be such that you could do advanced things like in MSVC.

>"Advanced things" is a somewhat vague concept. Still, let's include it along
>with apple pie and motherhood, two other features that Americans wouldn't
>want to be without :-)

Advanced things is just meant as a statement saying that vb's project
manager is wildly too simple.

Quote:

>> It would support such things as 'Make EXE file' using py2exe, support
>> debugging just like vb does - example, put break points on valid
>> lines. Have auto list members. Support an immediate window where you
>> can put together python statements almost like you can in the
>> interpreter now. With exception that it would also allow you to
>> perform operations within the scope of the paused program (assuming
>> this is possible).

>Sounds a bit like PythonWin, BlackAdder, Archeopteryx, wxDesigner,
>ActiveState's Mozilla-based product that does Python and Perl, and
>PythonWorks. These are some current projects you should be aware of to begin
>thinking about development for this market. PythonWin, for example, has some
>quite advanced debugging features. Come to think of it, you could do much
>worse that hire Mark Hammond (PythonWin's author) to consult on this design.
>I seem to remember he has some time available currently.

All but one of those ides require payment. PythonWin's de{*filter*} likes
to freeze a lot when developing code. pygame code I believe I was
debugging. I didn't like any of the other products I tried.

Komodo is slow, and when running applications they are always put
under debug mode I believe.

WingIDE ( http://www.*-*-*.com/ ) I can't say much about.

I tried PythonWorks and I don't care for it. It looks and acts a
little wierd to me. ( http://www.*-*-*.com/ ).

I am not trying to make a commercial product.

Quote:

>> Differences from vb would include no form editor (i don't see one
>> needed to begin with).

>Besides which there's a confusing selection of GUIs to choose from, as
>witness the immense debates that occur periodically when a newbie innocently
>asks "which GUI should I use".

Easy choice, wxWindows :-)
*let the religious war begin!*
Quote:

>> The language I would think of using for such a project would be c++
>> with wxWindows.

>Erm, wouldn't Python be a faster alternative? Once the initial
>implementation was complete you could optimise the really slow bits (if
>there were any) in C or C++.

I like the idea of controlling python from another language with a
product like this an enticing idea.

I am also turned off at using an interpreted bytecode language to
write an IDE for the same language. My problems with this source from
java ides which are infamously slow.

Quote:

>> Another feature that might work well is to allow this program to be
>> used as an editor for python code like vb allows for msoffice apps
>> (and other apps that buy vba).

>Except that you'd need apps that "buy" Python to use such a feature.

What do you mean by that?

Quote:

>> Any ideas welcome,

>Keep up the thinking, but examine the current landscape. A variety of tools
>are available, but at present there's no refactoring browser, for example
>(unless PythonWorks now includes it, I only just got round to downloading a
>demo copy). Rather than trying to emulate what's been done with other
>languages it might be more fruitful to aim at what Python programmers really
>need.

What they really need is something that this post is about. Free tools
are needed more than commercial ones IMO.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

>Just my two penn'orth. Good luck.

>regards
> Steve
>--
> http://www.*-*-*.com/



Tue, 22 Jun 2004 06:52:14 GMT  
 A Python IDE idea - looking for input
On Thu, 03 Jan 2002 21:53:28 GMT

Quote:

> The language I would think of using for such a project would be c++
> with wxWindows.

Why not Python with wxPython?

--
Cliff Wells
Software Engineer
Logiplex Corporation (www.logiplex.net)
(503) 978-6726 x308
(800) 735-0555 x308



Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:58:48 GMT  
 A Python IDE idea - looking for input
Funny you should mention such a beast. Here's where PythonCard
  http://pythoncard.sourceforge.net/
stands as of release 0.6.1

PythonCard uses wxPython 2.3.2 or higher and Python 2.0 or higher.

PythonCard includes the following runtime tools: Logging, Message Watcher,
Namespace Viewer, Property Editor, and Shell (Python interactive prompt on
steroids).

The layout editor (resourceEditor sample):
Simple, but works reasonably well under Windows. I'm currently chasing down
a mouse event bug under GTK that prevents the resizing handles from working
correctly, but you can still resize a control via the Property Editor under
GTK. A Menu Editor is included. The resourceEditor is written as a
PythonCard app with some "raw" wxPython thrown in where needed. I don't
think you need to program an IDE in C++.

Source code is still decoupled from layouts, so you can edit source in any
editor you want (vi, vim, emacs, Pythonwin, IDLE, etc.). Event handlers in
PythonCard look like:

  on_commandName_command
or
  on_widgetName_eventName

more examples...
    def on_menuFileExit_select(self, menu, event):
    def on_btnColor_mouseClick(self, target, event):
    def on_bufOff_mouseDrag(self, target, event):

So, it looks very similar to VB handler names.

The resourceEditor has a Run command so you can quickly test your layout
while still editing your source in another program.

So, what we have today is part of the puzzle of doing a full IDE for
PythonCard. We can always use more developers if you're interested.

ka


Quote:
> This is no guarantee such a product would be started, just looking for
> input on a potential future product.

> The model of the ide would come directly from Visual Basic. This
> includes such things as project manager on the side. The project
> manager would be such that you could do advanced things like in MSVC.
> It would support such things as 'Make EXE file' using py2exe, support
> debugging just like vb does - example, put break points on valid
> lines. Have auto list members. Support an immediate window where you
> can put together python statements almost like you can in the
> interpreter now. With exception that it would also allow you to
> perform operations within the scope of the paused program (assuming
> this is possible).

> Differences from vb would include no form editor (i don't see one
> needed to begin with).

> The language I would think of using for such a project would be c++
> with wxWindows.

> Another feature that might work well is to allow this program to be
> used as an editor for python code like vb allows for msoffice apps
> (and other apps that buy vba).

> Any ideas welcome,
> Regards,
> Jeffrey Drake



Tue, 22 Jun 2004 08:09:20 GMT  
 A Python IDE idea - looking for input

Quote:

> On Thu, 03 Jan 2002 21:53:28 GMT

>> The language I would think of using for such a project would be c++
>> with wxWindows.

> Why not Python with wxPython?

Or PyQT. I've done some work with it lately and it seems to not have any
performance issues. the core bits are in C++ so it's much faster than Java
for example.


Tue, 22 Jun 2004 08:46:46 GMT  
 A Python IDE idea - looking for input
Jeffrey Drake:

Quote:
> All but one of those ides require payment. PythonWin's de{*filter*} likes
> to freeze a lot when developing code. pygame code I believe I was
> debugging. I didn't like any of the other products I tried.

    If you are talking about hard hangs due to UI contention then one way to
go is to run the target code in a separate process and use some probe code
in that process to communicate with the IDE process. I believe most of the
commercial IDEs do this although there are some performance implications. If
the issue is responsiveness of PythonWin then I'm sure more work can be done
to improve this.

   One IDE not mentioned by Steve is Boa Constructor which is very (perhaps
overly) ambitious. It is not that active at the moment as Riaan is busy.
http://www.*-*-*.com/

Quote:
> I am also turned off at using an interpreted bytecode language to
> write an IDE for the same language. My problems with this source from
> java ides which are infamously slow.

   It depends on the level at which you bridge between the low level code
and the high level. If you write lots of detail level code (such as a lexer)
in Python then there may be perfromance concerns but using Python as a
supervisor over low level code written in C works very well.

   Some of the mentioned IDEs use the Scintilla widget I wrote in C++ to
provide text editing. While Python gets hooked into Scintilla text events,
most of the processing is done in C++ leading to acceptable performance I
hope.

   Think through the features you need in an IDE and about how they can be
implemented. The heaviest feature I see is watch points where you need to
evaluate Python expressions after every executed instruction or if you are
clever after every instruction that can change a watch point expression.
This requires running the interpreter over the expression and I would guess
(anyone know?) that this would equal or dominate over the IDE framework code
here, so changing the framework to C would not achieve that much. Maybe watc
hing the instruction counter tick from Python would be slow compared to
doing it from C, but you can always write a small piece of C that performs
the loop and then returns to Python when an interesting event occurs.

   Much of the code bulk in IDEs is UI guff that is better written in
Python.

   Neil



Tue, 22 Jun 2004 08:48:16 GMT  
 A Python IDE idea - looking for input

Quote:
> This is no guarantee such a product would be started, just looking for
> input on a potential future product.

> The model of the ide would come directly from Visual Basic. This

[snip the words of another ambitious open source hacker wanting to reproduce
VB's IDE for Python]

There are really only two things in VB's IDE that are worth trying to
reproduce: the form designer, and the de{*filter*}. Everything else that VB does
can be handled by common sense (like "project managers"), and a decent text
editor (for a good laugh, compare vim to VB's editor).

Further, a form designer is only useful for those whose problems involve
GUI's, and a de{*filter*} is only really useful to those who don't find the one
included with Python to be useful and who don't think the simplicity of the
language itself greatly reduces the need for a de{*filter*} to begin with.

My suggestion is this: decide which of the above purposes you find to be a
most pressing issue. If it's the requirement for a faster way to design a
GUI in Python, then look at something like Glade:

    http://www.*-*-*.com/

or wxDesigner:

    http://www.*-*-*.com/

or Black Adder:

    http://www.*-*-*.com/

or Boa Constructor:

    http://www.*-*-*.com/

because they already solve the problem, and if they don't, you'd likely do
better to give your effort to making them better rather than starting all
the way from scratch. Software evolves, and these programs are growing up,
and could use another parent or two to steer them in the right direction.
Writing a form designer that doesn't suck is a monumentous task (which
you'll learn shortly after the inspiration that caused you to write this
thread wears off :), so you're likely better off to work on what's there,
than spending the next 3 years trying to get to where some of the above
programs are right now (and some have been around as long or longer than
that).

If the de{*filter*} is something you use often, and you think that Python's
builtin de{*filter*} is bad, then first read the documentation to make sure
you're using it correctly, and if it's not working right ask yourself what
you don't like about it, and how hard it would be to make it work the way
you think it should.

Have fun,

Brad



Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:31:26 GMT  
 A Python IDE idea - looking for input


Quote:

>> The language I would think of using for such a project would be c++
>> with wxWindows.

> Erm, wouldn't Python be a faster alternative? Once the initial
> implementation was complete you could optimise the really slow bits
> (if there were any) in C or C++.

I really hate this step. Why cannot python be faster?
I choose python because it is easier to program with.
Now if I want to write a good program, I have
to use 2 languages which is not easier anymore.

Interpreter can be made to run fast. Why python cannot?
Asking people to optimize with C is just an lame excuse.

Of couse, python is free (as beer and freedem), so
it is natural there are no people want to work on
a faster python at this moment. Still the C excuse sucks.



Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:52:36 GMT  
 A Python IDE idea - looking for input
Le 04/01/02 02:52, {-- Rot13 - Hateme crivit:
Quote:


> >> The language I would think of using for such a project would be c++
> >> with wxWindows.

> > Erm, wouldn't Python be a faster alternative? Once the initial
> > implementation was complete you could optimise the really slow bits
> > (if there were any) in C or C++.

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Quote:

> I really hate this step. Why cannot python be faster?
> I choose python because it is easier to program with.
> Now if I want to write a good program, I have
> to use 2 languages which is not easier anymore.

> Interpreter can be made to run fast. Why python cannot?
> Asking people to optimize with C is just an lame excuse.

> Of couse, python is free (as beer and freedem), so
> it is natural there are no people want to work on
> a faster python at this moment. Still the C excuse sucks.

Yup. But note the "if there were any". I've never needed to optimize
Python code myself, except for interfacing OS stuff or for interfacing
existing C libraries.

I've also quickly looked at some alternatives like OCaml, which do offer
an interactive interpreter *and* and a very good native code compiler
which is equal to C compilers performance-wise, but the library support
was by far worse than Python's. Also the language Ocaml itself doesn't
offer many advantages for everyday programming IMHO. Harcore FP'lers
will disagree, of course.

<OT rant>
If you want to be disillusioned about the performance increa{*filter*}ts of
native code, just look at what compiled Java offers nowadays. If you're
lucky, it's even faster that Hotspot in JDK 1.4, with the only
difference that you paid 1000s of $ ;-)

Then, introduce some introspection (makes Java dynamic, like Python is
by default) and watch the performance of the so-called native code go
down.

I once created a primitive benchmark myself and was *really* impressed
by the Oracle Java runtime, it was almost as good as the code created by
Visual C++ and on par with gcc for my primitive sieve-of-Erathostenes
benchmark.
</OT rant>

Gerhard
--
mail:   gerhard <at> bigfoot <dot> de       registered Linux user #64239
web:     http://www.*-*-*.com/ ~ifw00065/    OpenPGP public key id 86AB43C0
public key fingerprint: DEC1 1D02 5743 1159 CD20  A4B6 7B22 6575 86AB 43C0
reduce(lambda x,y:x+y,map(lambda x:chr(ord(x)^42),tuple('zS^BED\nX_FOY\x0b')))



Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:25:29 GMT  
 A Python IDE idea - looking for input

Quote:

> I've never needed to optimize Python code myself, except for
> interfacing OS stuff or for interfacing existing C libraries.

A fair amount of the python I write these days is reimplementing
functionality which was previously done in perl.  Almost without excpetion,
the perl version runs several times faster, which is a strong incentive to
find ways to optimize my python code :-)

Usually, it's not hard to get a factor of 2 speedup with a little
optimization.  The profiler will usually point you to the right places to
start looking.  You will often find that a small handfull of lines of code
represent 3/4 of the CPU time of your program (this is the ancient 80/20
rule which has had remarkable longevity since the days of hand-coded
assembler).



Tue, 22 Jun 2004 12:10:01 GMT  
 A Python IDE idea - looking for input

Quote:
>>> Gerhard =?iso-8859-15?Q?H=E4ring?= wrote
> If you want to be disillusioned about the performance increa{*filter*}ts of
> native code, just look at what compiled Java offers nowadays. If you're
> lucky, it's even faster that Hotspot in JDK 1.4, with the only
> difference that you paid 1000s of $ ;-)

I think psyco shows that it's _possible_ to get some speedups from
native code in python. It doesn't, however, show that anyone's prepared
to invest the considerable amount of time or money to make it a reality.

Anthony



Tue, 22 Jun 2004 12:07:28 GMT  
 A Python IDE idea - looking for input


Quote:


> >> The language I would think of using for such a project would be c++
> >> with wxWindows.

> > Erm, wouldn't Python be a faster alternative? Once the initial
> > implementation was complete you could optimise the really slow bits
> > (if there were any) in C or C++.

> I really hate this step. Why cannot python be faster?
> I choose python because it is easier to program with.
> Now if I want to write a good program, I have
> to use 2 languages which is not easier anymore.

Presumably "good" == "fast" in your opinion? The "(if there were any)" was
there precisely because my personal experience tends to be with problems for
which Python is currently quite fast enough. If this isn't the case for you,
thenperhaps you ought to think about doing something about it (though I
realise moaning on a news group os much easier :-)

Quote:
> Interpreter can be made to run fast. Why python cannot?
> Asking people to optimize with C is just an lame excuse.

I wasn't asking anybody to do anything. Python will be optimized just as
soon as it's worth somebody's effort to do it. This is the open source
world, wake up. If it isn't fast enough, make it run faster.

Quote:
> Of couse, python is free (as beer and freedem), so
> it is natural there are no people want to work on
> a faster python at this moment. Still the C excuse sucks.

Yup. Free as in "freeloader" if you never put anything back in.

regards
 Steve
--
http://www.holdenweb.com/



Tue, 22 Jun 2004 14:49:26 GMT  
 A Python IDE idea - looking for input

    ...

Quote:
> was by far worse than Python's. Also the language Ocaml itself doesn't
> offer many advantages for everyday programming IMHO. Harcore FP'lers
> will disagree, of course.

I'm a "soft-core" FP'er and I'm more fascinated by Haskell and Erlang
than by any ML, and O'CaML in particular.  O'Caml looks like a highly
multi-paradigm language with lots of pieces stuck to it and excellent
implementation performance.  But, do I really want ANOTHER C++...???

Quote:
> <OT rant>
> If you want to be disillusioned about the performance increa{*filter*}ts of
> native code, just look at what compiled Java offers nowadays. If you're
> lucky, it's even faster that Hotspot in JDK 1.4, with the only
> difference that you paid 1000s of $ ;-)

I get native-compiled Java from gcc 3.* and I haven't paid a PENNY for
it.  Haven't done any benchmarking, either (not even tried JDK 1.4 yet,
though I will since I head that introspection in particular is speedier
enough to make a real difference with Jython).

Alex



Tue, 22 Jun 2004 18:39:26 GMT  
 
 [ 17 post ]  Go to page: [1] [2]

 Relevant Pages 

1. Looking for Python IDE ?

2. Looking for ATA/IDE driver/wrapper for Python/Win32

3. relative newbie looking for a python ide recommendation

4. Interesting-looking python IDE project

5. IDE crashing on Make -- ideas?

6. RIDE (Ruby IDE) and FreeRIDE merge -- a call for ideas and help

7. ISO: bright ideas for developer trying to use alternate input methods on Solaris SPARC

8. Python and Visual Programming?? Ideas for a complete python "IDE"

9. Looking For Smalltalk IDE

10. LOOKING FOR THE IDE FOR CLIPPER 5.3!

11. LOOKING FOR AN IDE FOR EVERY PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE...

12. Looking for IDE for Mac OSX

 

 
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software