Is Python the Esperanto of programming languages? 
Author Message
 Is Python the Esperanto of programming languages?

    Andy> I just occurred to me that python is designed to be elegant from
    Andy> the ground-up, and takes many of the 'best' features of many other
    Andy> programming languages, but always with elegance in mind, similarly
    Andy> to Esperanto...

    Andy> Anyone care to classify other languages in this way?  C, Pascal,
    Andy> Perl, BASIC... ?

What are other (natural) language categories do you propose besides
Esperanto?  Are you looking for statements like "Perl is to Python as German
is to Esperanto"?

Skip



Mon, 05 Sep 2005 06:43:08 GMT  
 Is Python the Esperanto of programming languages?
Hi Pythonistas,

Just thought I'd throw the cat amongst the pigeons...  I just occurred to me
that Python is designed to be elegant from the ground-up, and takes many of
the 'best' features of many other programming languages, but always with
elegance in mind, similarly to Esperanto, which is designed to be a 'regular'
(i.e. elegant) human language, and draws its vocabulary from many different
spoken languages.

Anyone care to classify other languages in this way?  C, Pascal, Perl,
BASIC... ?

regards,
-andyj



Mon, 05 Sep 2005 06:33:30 GMT  
 Is Python the Esperanto of programming languages?

Quote:

> Just thought I'd throw the cat amongst the pigeons...  I just occurred to me
> that Python is designed to be elegant from the ground-up, and takes many of
> the 'best' features of many other programming languages, but always with
> elegance in mind, similarly to Esperanto, which is designed to be a 'regular'
> (i.e. elegant) human language, and draws its vocabulary from many different
> spoken languages.

-1 Troll.

  I would wager there are more people using python than know Esperanto!



Mon, 05 Sep 2005 06:51:18 GMT  
 Is Python the Esperanto of programming languages?

Quote:

> Just thought I'd throw the cat amongst the pigeons...  I just occurred to me
> that Python is designed to be elegant from the ground-up, and takes many of
> the 'best' features of many other programming languages, but always with
> elegance in mind, similarly to Esperanto, which is designed to be a 'regular'
> (i.e. elegant) human language, and draws its vocabulary from many different
> spoken languages.

> Anyone care to classify other languages in this way?  C, Pascal, Perl,
> BASIC... ?

Visual Basic is like Ebonics?

--
Cliff Wells, Software Engineer
Logiplex Corporation (www.logiplex.net)
(503) 978-6726 x308  (800) 735-0555 x308



Mon, 05 Sep 2005 06:42:51 GMT  
 Is Python the Esperanto of programming languages?

Quote:

> Just thought I'd throw the cat amongst the pigeons...  I just occurred
> to me
> that Python is designed to be elegant from the ground-up, and takes
> many of
> the 'best' features of many other programming languages, but always
> with
> elegance in mind, similarly to Esperanto, which is designed to be a
> 'regular'
> (i.e. elegant) human language, and draws its vocabulary from many
> different
> spoken languages.

What I find amusing is how often Esperanto is mentioned in
comp.lang.python.

--

 __ San Jose, CA, USA / 37 20 N 121 53 W / &tSftDotIotE
/  \ The only completely consistent people are the dead.
\__/ Aldous Huxley
    Alcyone Systems / http://www.alcyone.com/
 Alcyone Systems, San Jose, California.



Mon, 05 Sep 2005 08:14:48 GMT  
 Is Python the Esperanto of programming languages?

Quote:

> What are other (natural) language categories do you propose besides
> Esperanto?  Are you looking for statements like "Perl is to Python as
> German
> is to Esperanto"?

Python is to Esperanto as Perl is to Volapuk.

--

 __ San Jose, CA, USA / 37 20 N 121 53 W / &tSftDotIotE
/  \ The only completely consistent people are the dead.
\__/ Aldous Huxley
    Alcyone Systems / http://www.alcyone.com/
 Alcyone Systems, San Jose, California.



Mon, 05 Sep 2005 08:15:07 GMT  
 Is Python the Esperanto of programming languages?

Quote:


> > Just thought I'd throw the cat amongst the pigeons...  I just
> > occurred to me
> > that Python is designed to be elegant from the ground-up, and takes
> > many of
> > the 'best' features of many other programming languages, but always
> > with
> > elegance in mind, similarly to Esperanto, ...

> -1 Troll.

>   I would wager there are more people using python than know
> Esperanto!

Even if true (which isn't that easy of a call, since both figures are
extremely hard to estimate reliably), what's that got to do with it?
The comment was clearly intended as a compliment for Python.  Where's
the troll?

--

 __ San Jose, CA, USA / 37 20 N 121 53 W / &tSftDotIotE
/  \ The only completely consistent people are the dead.
\__/ Aldous Huxley
    Alcyone Systems / http://www.alcyone.com/
 Alcyone Systems, San Jose, California.



Mon, 05 Sep 2005 08:17:43 GMT  
 Is Python the Esperanto of programming languages?

Quote:



> > > Just thought I'd throw the cat amongst the pigeons...  I just
> > > occurred to me
> > > that Python is designed to be elegant from the ground-up, and takes
> > > many of
> > > the 'best' features of many other programming languages, but always
> > > with
> > > elegance in mind, similarly to Esperanto, ...

> > -1 Troll.

> >   I would wager there are more people using python than know
> > Esperanto!

> Even if true (which isn't that easy of a call, since both figures are
> extremely hard to estimate reliably), what's that got to do with it?
> The comment was clearly intended as a compliment for Python.  Where's
> the troll?

Saying "good, great, thoughtful, best intentions - exactly like this widely
heckeled massive failure who's crowning acheivement was a movie starring
William Shatner."  hardly strikes me as a compliment.  


Mon, 05 Sep 2005 08:40:19 GMT  
 Is Python the Esperanto of programming languages?

Quote:

> Saying "good, great, thoughtful, best intentions - exactly like this
> widely
> heckeled massive failure who's crowning acheivement was a movie
> starring
> William Shatner."  hardly strikes me as a compliment.

Most reliable estimates put the number of Esperanto speakers worldwide
at 1-2 million, and appears to be growing (especially with the advent of
the Internet).  While that may not be the ideal goal (being a universal
auxiliary language that practically everybody knows), that puts it on
par with the total number of speakers of local languages such as
Estonian or maybe even Hebrew.  Is that "enough," or something to brag
about?  It depends on your viewpoint, but labelling it a "massive
failure" seems inappropriate; it's by far the most popular planned
language.  It's true that it's frequently "heckled," but that's mostly
out of ignorance -- most people who think Esperanto is dumb don't
realize that it's not intended to be a primary language (i.e., to
replace whatever they're speaking now), but rather a universal second
language, so that everybody shares an auxiliary language.

Further, his comments were based on the _goals_ and _design_ of
Esperanto, not its current success ("elegant from the ground-up," "takes
many of the 'best' features of many other programming languages," and
"always with elegance in mind").  So by his analysis the current success
(or failure, however you judge it) of Esperanto is irrelevant, he was
making the comparison based on design.  So no, that ain't a troll.

And you're wrong.  Incubus _was_ a crowning achievement.  It was
positively, uproariously hilarious.

--

 __ San Jose, CA, USA / 37 20 N 121 53 W / &tSftDotIotE
/  \ The only completely consistent people are the dead.
\__/ Aldous Huxley
    Alcyone Systems / http://www.alcyone.com/
 Alcyone Systems, San Jose, California.



Mon, 05 Sep 2005 09:16:40 GMT  
 Is Python the Esperanto of programming languages?

    Andy> Hi Pythonistas, Just thought I'd throw the cat amongst the
    Andy> pigeons...  I just occurred to me that Python is designed to be
    Andy> elegant from the ground-up, and takes many of the 'best' features
    Andy> of many other programming languages, but always with elegance in
    Andy> mind, similarly to Esperanto, which is designed to be a 'regular'
    Andy> (i.e. elegant) human language, and draws its vocabulary from many
    Andy> different spoken languages.

As a native Chinese speaker, I find Esperanto *far* from elegant (with a lot
of rather stupid redundancy like the need to match the case of adjectives
and nouns, or even just having the concept of tense). =)

Regards,
Isaac.



Mon, 05 Sep 2005 09:52:32 GMT  
 Is Python the Esperanto of programming languages?

    Erik> most people who think Esperanto is dumb don't realize that it's
    Erik> not intended to be a primary language (i.e., to replace whatever
    Erik> they're speaking now), but rather a universal second language, so
    Erik> that everybody shares an auxiliary language.

No.  You should look at the various web sites explaining "why Esperanto is
not my favourite auxiliary language".  All of them understand that it is
supposed to be a second language, but still they think it is not as easily
learnt as it should be, especially for non-Europeans.  This is critical as
it is something that people should learn *in addition to* other languages,
and more importantly, *won't* use unless he cannot talk with somebody with
that "other languages" (which is a rare case, especially for people who
speak more than one language anyway).

This contrasts sharply with any programming language.  For many people, as
long as the things they need are there, the choice of programming language
is more or less based on personal preference.  Then even a language that is
not "as easily learnt as it should be" can be successful.  So the success of
Python, but the failure of Esperanto.

Regards,
Isaac.



Mon, 05 Sep 2005 10:06:50 GMT  
 Is Python the Esperanto of programming languages?

Quote:


>    Andy> Hi Pythonistas, Just thought I'd throw the cat amongst the
>    Andy> pigeons...  I just occurred to me that Python is designed to be
>    Andy> elegant from the ground-up, and takes many of the 'best' features
>    Andy> of many other programming languages, but always with elegance in
>    Andy> mind, similarly to Esperanto, which is designed to be a 'regular'
>    Andy> (i.e. elegant) human language, and draws its vocabulary from many
>    Andy> different spoken languages.

> As a native Chinese speaker, I find Esperanto *far* from elegant (with a lot
> of rather stupid redundancy like the need to match the case of adjectives
> and nouns, or even just having the concept of tense). =)

Ok, but I wonder if Esperanto is still easier to learn than natural
European languages.  I would guess it has the same odd (to you)
syntax, but at least there are no pesky exceptions.

(BTW, the modern inflections indicating verbal tenses were probably
separate adverbs around ten thousand years ago, in a language that
would evolve into Proto-Indo-European in another four thousand years.
Of course, that language could have had its own tenses, but it could
have been tenseless like Chinese.)

--
CARL BANKS



Mon, 05 Sep 2005 10:56:58 GMT  
 Is Python the Esperanto of programming languages?

Quote:

> No.  You should look at the various web sites explaining "why
> Esperanto is
> not my favourite auxiliary language".  All of them understand that it
> is
> supposed to be a second language, but still they think it is not as
> easily
> learnt as it should be, especially for non-Europeans.

This "all" qualification is a little too much.  It may well be that some
Esperanto detractors do not like it.  However, a lot of the casual
indifference/ridicule of Esperanto I've seen are from people who don't
know what an auxiliary language is, and have simply heard that Esperanto
is intended to be a primary language that is forced on them from
without, rather than a secondary language for all to learn.

Whether you're fond of Esperanto's design or not is beside the point --
it _is_ true that a large proportion of the people who have bad things
to say about Esperanto don't really know what it is.

--

 __ San Jose, CA, USA / 37 20 N 121 53 W / &tSftDotIotE
/  \ Ten lands are sooner known than one man.
\__/ (a Yiddish proverb)
    Computer science / http://www.alcyone.com/max/reference/compsci/
 A computer science reference.



Mon, 05 Sep 2005 11:12:44 GMT  
 Is Python the Esperanto of programming languages?

Quote:


> > Just thought I'd throw the cat amongst the pigeons...  I just occurred to me
> > that Python is designed to be elegant from the ground-up, and takes many of
> > the 'best' features of many other programming languages, but always with
> > elegance in mind, similarly to Esperanto, which is designed to be a 'regular'
> > (i.e. elegant) human language, and draws its vocabulary from many different
> > spoken languages.

> -1 Troll.

>   I would wager there are more people using python than know Esperanto!

Google says:
Searched the web for python language.   Results 1 - 10 of about
663,000
Searched the web for esperanto.   Results 1 - 10 of about 1,260,000

I partly agree with Andy's analogy, but I think it would be hard to
extend that to other languages. Esperanto isn't a natural language and
there's no such a difference between Python and other programming
languages like Esperanto's elegance and simplicity compared to other
(human) languages.
(Assembly may be an exception, though :)

----
levi



Mon, 05 Sep 2005 13:23:32 GMT  
 Is Python the Esperanto of programming languages?
   ...

Quote:
>>   I would wager there are more people using python than know Esperanto!

> Google says:
> Searched the web for python language.   Results 1 - 10 of about
> 663,000

And perhaps more significantly, python -monty gives 1.4 M hits (not
sure how to square this with the fact that python monty gives 453K
hits and just python 4.9 M hits...).

Quote:
> Searched the web for esperanto.   Results 1 - 10 of about 1,260,000

Something strange here -- I'm seeing only 151 K hits... (?!)

Alex



Mon, 05 Sep 2005 15:37:14 GMT  
 
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