Messaging in Py? 
Author Message
 Messaging in Py?

Pythoneers,

Anyone implement any "messaging" services in python yet?

I've been reading about JMS, which I don't want to use, it being
Java, after all. But point-to-point and publish/subscribe messaging
in Python is very intriguing.

I know I'm not the first person to think this, but googling doesn't
turn up anything.

Best,
Kendall Clark



Thu, 06 Nov 2003 13:16:05 GMT  
 Messaging in Py?

Quote:

> Pythoneers,

> Anyone implement any "messaging" services in Python yet?

Though it is very minimal, there's a chat server coming packaged
with Medusa (you telnet to some magic port, and can see what
other folks type).

It's a bit spartanic, but the functionality is already sufficient,
if you want to quickly set up ad hoc forum for a small set of
people you personally know. There might be some instant messaging
which works on MojoNation, but I haven't been looking at that yet.

Apropos MojoNation, have any of you pros read the source? Is it good
Python style?



Thu, 06 Nov 2003 20:28:30 GMT  
 Messaging in Py?

Quote:

> Pythoneers,

> Anyone implement any "messaging" services in Python yet?

> I've been reading about JMS, which I don't want to use, it being
> Java, after all. But point-to-point and publish/subscribe messaging
> in Python is very intriguing.

Excuse the followup to self, but I seem to have been imprecise:

I don't mean messaging as in 'instant messaging' but 'messaging'
as in message-oriented middleware and Tibco, Talarian, BEA, IBM,
etc. -- i.e., client-server frameworks for (a)synchronous messaging
in Python.

This seems to be a hot Java area now, so on Java-envy alone some
Pythoneers should be working on something; to say nothing of the
fact that it's generally a very clever, useful, c/s paradigm.

Hope that helps clarify my original question.

Kendall Clark



Thu, 06 Nov 2003 23:28:27 GMT  
 Messaging in Py?

Quote:
>I don't mean messaging as in 'instant messaging' but 'messaging'
>as in message-oriented middleware and Tibco, Talarian, BEA, IBM,
>etc. -- i.e., client-server frameworks for (a)synchronous messaging
>in Python.

It's just _so_ trivial to write network code in Python. What actual
capability do you want?

C//



Fri, 07 Nov 2003 00:45:33 GMT  
 Messaging in Py?

Quote:

>>I don't mean messaging as in 'instant messaging' but 'messaging'
>>as in message-oriented middleware and Tibco, Talarian, BEA, IBM,
>>etc. -- i.e., client-server frameworks for (a)synchronous messaging
>>in Python.

> It's just _so_ trivial to write network code in Python. What actual
> capability do you want?

> C//

How about SOAP?  Isn't SOAP emergining as a {*filter*} protocol for
messaging, for making requests across HTTP, and for Web services?

For SOAP support for Python check:

    http://www.*-*-*.com/

  - Dave

--
Dave Kuhlman



Fri, 07 Nov 2003 02:36:04 GMT  
 Messaging in Py?
|
| Anyone implement any "messaging" services in Python yet?
|
| I've been reading about JMS, which I don't want to use, it being
| Java, after all. But point-to-point and publish/subscribe messaging
| in Python is very intriguing.

I've started to hear about JMS at my (Java) job.  You could, of
course, use JMS from Python code running in the Jython interpreter.
That's one of the cool things about Jython -- every neat
library/system Java has Python automatically has it for no extra
charge!  (Now we just need to bring CPython and its extension
libraries together with Jython's seamless use of Java libraries.
Perhaps xml-rpc or some such thing can do that already.)

There is xml-rpc, but it is RPC not "messaging" in the JMS sense.

-D



Fri, 07 Nov 2003 02:15:21 GMT  
 Messaging in Py?
| How about SOAP?  Isn't SOAP emergining as a {*filter*} protocol for
| messaging, for making requests across HTTP, and for Web services?

According the the xml-rpc site the xml-rpc guys used to work for MS.
They left after sharing the xml-rpc idea.  Now they maintain xml-rpc,
which is a simple way for using RPC (from the client's perspective,
anyways).  SOAP is what the other MS guys ended up with after they
bloated xml-rpc with excess features.

I haven't used either system yet so everything above is hearsay (not
my opinion and not my experience; yet <wink>), from the xml-rpc web
site.

-D



Fri, 07 Nov 2003 02:58:19 GMT  
 Messaging in Py?

Quote:

> >I don't mean messaging as in 'instant messaging' but 'messaging'
> >as in message-oriented middleware and Tibco, Talarian, BEA, IBM,
> >etc. -- i.e., client-server frameworks for (a)synchronous messaging
> >in Python.

> It's just _so_ trivial to write network code in Python. What actual
> capability do you want?

It's *so* generous of you to offer... &wink;

Since you ask:

     - a complete Pythonic clone of JMS
     - ZODB as a backing store
     - XML wire protocol, SOAP preferably
     - XPath expressions to filter messages subscribers receive
     - powered by asyncore
     - world peace and a new PC...

Ok, I'll negotiate on that last one. :>

Seriously, while I agree that it's easy to write networking code
in Python, nothing's easier than finding out someone's already done
or started the project you need, and you can help out or adapt their
code.

For more about JMS, see

http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/Networking/...

Python has a little bit of everything; but so far, I can't find
anything like JMS. (Well, there is a Python interface to Tibco's
messaging server, but that's big league expensive; there's also Elvin,
which is interesting, but has some warts and seems to be going in a
different direction.)

Kendall Clark

PS -- I'm asking because I want to prototype a distributed,
consensus-based content editorial/workflow system for the
Indymedia.org sites, which is ideally suited for both point-to-point
and publish/subscribe messaging.



Fri, 07 Nov 2003 10:05:16 GMT  
 Messaging in Py?

Quote:
>> >I don't mean messaging as in 'instant messaging' but 'messaging'
>> >as in message-oriented middleware ...
>> It's just _so_ trivial to write network code in Python. What actual
>> capability do you want?

>It's *so* generous of you to offer... &wink;

>Since you ask:

>     - a complete Pythonic clone of JMS
>     - ZODB as a backing store
>     - XML wire protocol, SOAP preferably
>     - XPath expressions to filter messages subscribers receive
>     - powered by asyncore
>     - world peace and a new PC...

What you're looking for is an asyncronous publish subscribe
text and/or serialized object delivery service between mutual
peers? With possible serialization using xml pickle, but
even better, with extensible/plugin-based serialization?
Would the backing store be for session rejoin / recovery,
or did you have something else in mind?

I'm asking you this, because as it so happens I'm working on
a _paid_ government research project at the moment in this
area, and am in the process of developing a reliable,
channelized UDP layer to support much of this. While my
primary work is not in Python, much of the first pass prototype
work is.

If I got a CVS tree root up on source forge, I wonder how many
people would be interested in working on it? I might do the
initial work, and then give it to the community. The government
would probably be as happy as pie to successfully host a
worthwhile open source effort.

C//



Fri, 07 Nov 2003 10:32:27 GMT  
 Messaging in Py?

    ...

Quote:
> Seriously, while I agree that it's easy to write networking code
> in Python, nothing's easier than finding out someone's already done
> or started the project you need, and you can help out or adapt their

Sometimes I wonder about this "apparently self-evident truth".

Python makes certain kinds of tasks *SO* deucedly easy (this
doesn't necessarily apply to the specific one being discussed
here -- this is just a generic musing!-), that the temptation
IS serious to just recode it and be done, rather than start
looking for an already-almost-there solution out on the web.

Which may be why we end up with so *MANY* modules solving the
same (easy and not-so-easy) problems...:-).

Alex



Fri, 07 Nov 2003 16:37:03 GMT  
 Messaging in Py?

Quote:
> area, and am in the process of developing a reliable,
> channelized UDP layer to support much of this. While my

Why UDP?

Cheers.

--

Liverpool 2 - 1 Arsenal
Liverpool 5 - 4 Alaves



Fri, 07 Nov 2003 22:28:44 GMT  
 Messaging in Py?


Quote:

> | How about SOAP?  Isn't SOAP emergining as a {*filter*} protocol for
> | messaging, for making requests across HTTP, and for Web services?

> According the the xml-rpc site the xml-rpc guys used to work for MS.
> They left after sharing the xml-rpc idea.  Now they maintain xml-rpc,
> which is a simple way for using RPC (from the client's perspective,
> anyways).  SOAP is what the other MS guys ended up with after they
> bloated xml-rpc with excess features.

> I haven't used either system yet so everything above is hearsay (not
> my opinion and not my experience; yet <wink>), from the xml-rpc web
> site.

> -D

I'm pretty sure xml-rpc was a sun initiative, but i'm not sure - there's
a pretty good table at w3.org describing the MANY proposals for remote
procedure call reccomendations (w3-ese for standard).

www.userland.com should also have some info since it's owner, Dave
Weiner, was one of the developers of both xml-rpc and soap.

FWIW, I think the trend is towards SOAP and away from xml-rpc.

Python imps for both exist of course.

Dave LeBlanc



Sat, 08 Nov 2003 00:45:26 GMT  
 Messaging in Py?


Quote:

> >> >I don't mean messaging as in 'instant messaging' but 'messaging'
> >> >as in message-oriented middleware ...

> >> It's just _so_ trivial to write network code in Python. What actual
> >> capability do you want?

> >It's *so* generous of you to offer... &wink;

> >Since you ask:

> >     - a complete Pythonic clone of JMS
> >     - ZODB as a backing store
> >     - XML wire protocol, SOAP preferably
> >     - XPath expressions to filter messages subscribers receive
> >     - powered by asyncore
> >     - world peace and a new PC...

> What you're looking for is an asyncronous publish subscribe
> text and/or serialized object delivery service between mutual
> peers? With possible serialization using xml pickle, but
> even better, with extensible/plugin-based serialization?
> Would the backing store be for session rejoin / recovery,
> or did you have something else in mind?

<snip>
> If I got a CVS tree root up on source forge, I wonder how many
> people would be interested in working on it? I might do the
> initial work, and then give it to the community. The government
> would probably be as happy as pie to successfully host a
> worthwhile open source effort.

> C//

Isn't WebDAV an asyncronous publish subscribe service?

I'd be interested in checking out your project...

Dave LeBlanc



Sat, 08 Nov 2003 00:48:37 GMT  
 
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