Python on riscos 
Author Message
 Python on riscos

I want to run a programme, ITS-0/0, which I have downloaded from
www.maitint. org.

It uses Python, so I downloaded several archives from
www.schwertberger.dusnet.de/python.html including !Python, !NumPy and a
directory wimpy. I'm not sure what does what.

If I double-click on !Python I get a message:

'import site' failed; use -v for traceback
python 2.1 (#12, Apr 18 2001, 20:59:37) [C] on RISCOS
Type "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.

What do I need to do to run ITS-0/0?

I have a RiscPC 600 with a Strong ARM and RISCOS 4.02

John

--

Loughborough, in the middle of England



Fri, 06 Feb 2004 04:56:58 GMT  
 Python on riscos

Quote:

> I want to run a programme, ITS-0/0, which I have downloaded from
> www.maitint. org.
[snip]
> What do I need to do to run ITS-0/0?

> I have a RiscPC 600 with a Strong ARM and RISCOS 4.02

Unfortunately you can't run ITS on RISC OS as there is no port of Tk which
ITS uses for its GUI.

Regards,

Dietmar



Fri, 06 Feb 2004 07:23:07 GMT  
 Python on riscos


Quote:


> > What do I need to do to run ITS-0/0?
> Unfortunately you can't run ITS on RISC OS as there is no port of Tk which
> ITS uses for its GUI.

How big/difficult would it be to port Tk using the toolbox modules ?

--
___
 |im    ---- ARM Powered ----



Fri, 06 Feb 2004 15:27:58 GMT  
 Python on riscos

Quote:





> > > What do I need to do to run ITS-0/0?

> > Unfortunately you can't run ITS on RISC OS as there is no port of Tk which
> > ITS uses for its GUI.

> How big/difficult would it be to port Tk using the toolbox modules ?

Don't know.
It probably would be easier to build Tk and use a local X server. This
should be possible, at least in theory...

Regards,

Dietmar



Fri, 06 Feb 2004 18:46:35 GMT  
 Python on riscos


Quote:
> I want to run a programme, ITS-0/0, which I have downloaded from
> www.maitint. org.

> It uses Python, so I downloaded several archives from
> www.schwertberger.dusnet.de/python.html including !Python, !NumPy
> and a directory wimpy. I'm not sure what does what.

> If I double-click on !Python I get a message:

> 'import site' failed; use -v for traceback
> Python 2.1 (#12, Apr 18 2001, 20:59:37) [C] on RISCOS
> Type "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.

> What do I need to do to run ITS-0/0?

> I have a RiscPC 600 with a Strong ARM and RISCOS 4.02

Ignoring the other messages about RISC-OS python not supporting TK,
there are two ways to get a python program running on RISC-OS.

1) Set the type of the file containing the main entry point to Python,
and simply doubly click on the file.

2) Put the program into a standard application directory (ie.
!<something>), and create a !run file containing something like:

Python <Obey$dir>.!RunImage

Simon

--
http://www.callan.demon.co.uk/simon/



Sat, 07 Feb 2004 02:19:29 GMT  
 Python on riscos

[someone else:]

Quote:
> > Unfortunately you can't run ITS on RISC OS as there is no port of Tk which
> > ITS uses for its GUI.

> How big/difficult would it be to port Tk using the toolbox modules ?

The value of the time it would take to do it would probably
exceed the cost of a new machine running Windows or *nix.
How important is it that the thing should run on your Risc PC?

By the way, I have a hazy recollection that someone *did* port
some, at least, of Tk to RISC OS. I don't know how easy it would
be to make the Python port work nicely with it, and I don't
now remember how complete the port was or who did it or anything
useful like that.

--

.sig under construc



Sat, 07 Feb 2004 04:04:37 GMT  
 Python on riscos


Quote:

> > How big/difficult would it be to port Tk using the toolbox modules ?

> The value of the time it would take to do it would probably
> exceed the cost of a new machine running Windows or *nix.

That's what I thought might be the answer (it's beyond my
knowledge/ability).

Quote:
> How important is it that the thing should run on your Risc PC?

Not very, I've used Python to do lots of file mangling scripty kind of
stuff which I run on either RISC OS or Windows but I much prefer to
write with StrongED/work in the RISC OS environment.

What I would occasionally like though, is the ability for a user to
(say) choose an input file or output file via a GUI interface - one
which would work on Windows or RISC OS.

I suppose I could knock up my own simple system which would load
relevant modules dependent on host OS.

(Unfortunately I haven't got round to either SWI acces to Acorn wimp or
Tk/WxWindows partly cos of cross platform-ness.)

--
___
 |im    ---- ARM Powered ----



Sat, 07 Feb 2004 05:06:37 GMT  
 Python on riscos

Quote:

> By the way, I have a hazy recollection that someone *did* port
> some, at least, of Tk to RISC OS. I don't know how easy it would
> be to make the Python port work nicely with it, and I don't
> now remember how complete the port was or who did it or anything
> useful like that.

I believe that Chris Stretch, in the earlier port of Python for RISC
OS, decided that Tk was too difficult to port, given certain
limitations of the RISC OS Desktop environment (no nested windows at
that time), so he invented a new toolkit (whose name eludes me, but it
started with T, I think) which was incompatible with Tk.

It might be interesting to review the Mac OS port of Tk to see whether
a RISC OS port is viable, given that Mac OS is possibly the closest
platform to RISC OS architecturally that Tk has been ported to. An
alternative solution would be to follow the anygui project
(http://anygui.sourceforge.net) and implement the proposed API using
calls to the underlying Desktop API.

Paul



Sat, 07 Feb 2004 17:56:51 GMT  
 Python on riscos

Quote:


> > By the way, I have a hazy recollection that someone *did* port
> > some, at least, of Tk to RISC OS. I don't know how easy it would
> > be to make the Python port work nicely with it, and I don't
> > now remember how complete the port was or who did it or anything
> > useful like that.

> I believe that Chris Stretch, in the earlier port of Python for RISC
> OS, decided that Tk was too difficult to port, given certain
> limitations of the RISC OS Desktop environment (no nested windows at
> that time), so he invented a new toolkit (whose name eludes me, but it
> started with T, I think) which was incompatible with Tk.

Do you mean Shade? ;-)

Quote:
> It might be interesting to review the Mac OS port of Tk to see whether
> a RISC OS port is viable, given that Mac OS is possibly the closest
> platform to RISC OS architecturally that Tk has been ported to. An
> alternative solution would be to follow the anygui project
> (http://anygui.sourceforge.net) and implement the proposed API using
> calls to the underlying Desktop API.

This is an interesting project. Looking at the API which inspired
their's reminds me of the system I wanted to implement, namely that of
documents with multiple views:

http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg/python_gui/

It will be quite challenging to bring across some of the ideas to RISC
OS, since the way some mechanisms are implemented on RISC OS, such as
menu selection, require information to be stored globally (within a
GUI module anyway).

David



Sun, 08 Feb 2004 01:08:50 GMT  
 Python on riscos


Quote:




> > > What do I need to do to run ITS-0/0?
> > Unfortunately you can't run ITS on RISC OS as there is no port of Tk which
> > ITS uses for its GUI.
> How big/difficult would it be to port Tk using the toolbox modules ?

Looking at WIMPY, which is included in the Python Riscos site, there is a
note that says:

"This is a Python module which interfaces with the RISC OS wimp." Is this
the same sort of thing?

John

--

Loughborough, in the middle of England



Sun, 08 Feb 2004 03:56:04 GMT  
 Python on riscos

Quote:


> > How big/difficult would it be to port Tk using the toolbox modules ?

> Looking at WIMPY, which is included in the Python Riscos site, there is a
> note that says:

> "This is a Python module which interfaces with the RISC OS wimp." Is this
> the same sort of thing?

I looked at

http://www.bursa.freeuk.com/freeware/

Do you mean the library mentioned on that page? It's quite neat and
small, and appears to support most or all of the features of my
library, plus some that I haven't approached. Some of the techniques
used are similar to those I used, but that's not surprising given the
aims of both libraries.

One of the strengths of Tk is, I believe, the widgets that come with
it.
wimp.py doesn't appear to have any such high level objects as it
stands, so you'd probably have to write some before you could consider
using it in the same way as you would use Tk. The same is true of my
library.

Of course, there may already be some nice widgets for use with wimp.py
that I don't know about. Has anyone done anything extensive with it?

David



Wed, 11 Feb 2004 03:06:57 GMT  
 Python on riscos


Quote:


> > I want to run a programme, ITS-0/0, which I have downloaded from
> > www.maitint. org.

> Ignoring the other messages about RISC-OS python not supporting TK,
> there are two ways to get a python program running on RISC-OS.

<snip>

Thanks everyone for the discussion. I will find a Windoze machine
somewhere to run ITS-0/0.

I have got a bit of an idea of what Python is about by looking at this
newsgroup for a few weeks, and am asking myself whether to get into it
more. I am not doing any programming at the moment and, if I did, the
first choice would be "BBC" Basic that is incorporated into the RiscOS
operating system, mainly because I am familier with it. Python would be a
clear choice if I wanted platform independence.

I guess that this would be the case for most RiscOS programmers and may
mean that there is less incentive for them to use Python etc. This may
mean that there is also less incentive for porting all the Python bits to
RiscOS.

I _know_ that the RiscOS scene is tiny compared with Windows or MacOS but
it is alive and kicking. I hope that it can be included in the impressive
list of operating systems that are fully supported by Python.

Are there really useful applications written in Python? Where would they
be listed?

John

--

Loughborough, in the middle of England



Thu, 19 Feb 2004 16:41:48 GMT  
 Python on riscos

Quote:

> I have got a bit of an idea of what Python is about by looking at this
> newsgroup for a few weeks, and am asking myself whether to get into it
> more. I am not doing any programming at the moment and, if I did, the
> first choice would be "BBC" Basic that is incorporated into the RiscOS
> operating system, mainly because I am familier with it. Python would be a
> clear choice if I wanted platform independence.

I suppose, if memory is tight on your RISC OS machine, you might want
to stick with BASIC, but Python offers so many advantages over BBC
BASIC that you'll never want to go back once you start writing Python
code. Whilst BBC BASIC fans frequently applaud the "structured
programming" features of that language, such features were only ever
"radical" because other BASIC dialects in the early-to-mid 80s didn't
support them. Functions, procedures and loops are one thing, but BBC
BASIC offers no decent support for data structures (I don't consider
arrays and blocks decent), so one quickly becomes inefficient as a
developer once programs in that language become sufficiently
complicated.

Python's object-oriented features only add to the impression that BBC
BASIC is quite a primitive language. It's rather unfortunate that many
RISC OS developers have turned to C or (to a lesser extent) Perl
because BBC BASIC never addressed the limitations described above. But
unlike those languages, Python's clean syntax should appeal to you as
an established BASIC developer, and you'll probably appreciate the
interactive Python environment too.

Quote:
> I guess that this would be the case for most RiscOS programmers and may
> mean that there is less incentive for them to use Python etc. This may
> mean that there is also less incentive for porting all the Python bits to
> RiscOS.

From what I've seen, the port to RISC OS seems rather well done; to
have that work integrated into the standard distribution so quickly
when other ports have taken a long time (Mac) or never even got that
far (Amiga?), despite the sometimes bizarre nature of RISC OS, is a
fine achievement in my opinion.

As this thread has illustrated, though, many packages may be difficult
to port because of RISC OS limitations and not because people don't
have the inclination. Motivation does play a part, though, but for
many reasons: people like myself may have made good use out of Python
many years ago on RISC OS - I tried to make C++ do what I wanted back
in the early 90s, but implementations weren't really suitable - but
now I have moved on and have no inclination to use RISC OS at all.

Quote:
> I _know_ that the RiscOS scene is tiny compared with Windows or MacOS but
> it is alive and kicking. I hope that it can be included in the impressive
> list of operating systems that are fully supported by Python.

I'd say Python fully supports RISC OS now. You even get a low-level
interface to the operating system!

Quote:
> Are there really useful applications written in Python? Where would they
> be listed?

There are quite a number. Go to http://www.python.org and check out
the "Vaults of Parnassus", or visit http://www.sf.net and search for
projects which use Python. You're sure to find quite a few that way.

Paul



Fri, 20 Feb 2004 17:10:36 GMT  
 Python on riscos

Quote:


> > I have got a bit of an idea of what Python is about by looking at this
> > newsgroup for a few weeks, and am asking myself whether to get into it
> > more.
> Python's object-oriented features only add to the impression that BBC
> BASIC is quite a primitive language. It's rather unfortunate that many
> RISC OS developers have turned to C or (to a lesser extent) Perl
> because BBC BASIC never addressed the limitations described above. But
> unlike those languages, Python's clean syntax should appeal to you as
> an established BASIC developer, and you'll probably appreciate the
> interactive Python environment too.

At the moment I do not have any projects planned that require programming,
but I am toying with the idea of a skirmish into Python mainly to educate
myself as to _exactly_ what "object orientation" is. (A {*filter*}? ;-)

Quote:
> From what I've seen, the port to RISC OS seems rather well done; to
> have that work integrated into the standard distribution so quickly
> when other ports have taken a long time (Mac) or never even got that
> far (Amiga?), despite the sometimes bizarre nature of RISC OS, is a
> fine achievement in my opinion.
.....
> I'd say Python fully supports RISC OS now. You even get a low-level
> interface to the operating system!

Looking at available apps. written in Python, the weak link seems to be
that many of them need tk which it appears is not available on RISC OS.

Quote:
> As this thread has illustrated, though, many packages may be difficult
> to port because of RISC OS limitations and not because people don't
> have the inclination. Motivation does play a part, though, but for
> many reasons: people like myself may have made good use out of Python
> many years ago on RISC OS - I tried to make C++ do what I wanted back
> in the early 90s, but implementations weren't really suitable - but
> now I have moved on and have no inclination to use RISC OS at all.

I think there are two distinct issues here: the platform and the task. To
do the best job on a given task one would choose the most appropriate
platform. I would prefer to use RISCOS because I find the GUI less
stressful, but it is no big deal to use a different computer.

The other issue is how much is the RISCOS platform worth supporting? I see
that there are new machines being introduced, Kinetic, Omega and Solo. The
last is particularly interesting, it is designed to run on 8.5W from a
solar panel, for use in under developed countries where there is no other
power. See www.explan.co.uk/hardware/solo.shtml

If this project comes off there could be a huge new user base for the
delights of Python.

John

--

Loughborough, in the middle of England



Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:17:35 GMT  
 Python on riscos

   I think there are two distinct issues here: the platform and the task. To
   do the best job on a given task one would choose the most appropriate
   platform. I would prefer to use RISCOS because I find the GUI less
   stressful, but it is no big deal to use a different computer.

   The other issue is how much is the RISCOS platform worth supporting? I see
   that there are new machines being introduced, Kinetic, Omega and Solo. The
   last is particularly interesting, it is designed to run on 8.5W from a
   solar panel, for use in under developed countries where there is no other
   power. See www.explan.co.uk/hardware/solo.shtml

THAT sounds interesting. I'd love to put a python driven comms/server/alarm
on my bike, of course with the ARM-7500 you could always go with linux,
i think that debian would even install on this box without too much pain.
$1000USD is a bit steep though, unless it's got the 802.11 cards already in
the box...

--

 ae          ___                / \                         (         )__
 pf     ____(   )__             \                      ____(             )
 rn    (           )            /\                    (                   )
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 er           \                  /             http://www.efn.org/~laprice
  g           /                   \
    ______________________________*_________________________________________



Sun, 29 Feb 2004 08:21:19 GMT  
 
 [ 15 post ] 

 Relevant Pages 

1. RiscOS Forthmacs Newsletter, Nov. 1998

2. RiscOS Forthmacs Letter

3. Gofer + RISCOS machines

4. tcl on EP/IX (or RISCos) in bsd43 environment

5. Python Install-Installed Python 2 on top of python 1.5

6. Python module templates (was python calling python)

7. ANNOUNCE: quality assurance: another python lint (and python parsing in python)

8. Python and XUL: Luxor XUL Python Example Suite Released

9. New editable Python TO-DO List at www.python.org

10. mail.python.python scheduled maintenance

11. ANN: Python User Groups page at python.org

12. ANNOUNCE: Python 10 Birds of a Feather session on a Python distributed transaction framework

 

 
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