Python/Zope vs. Java/JSP 
Author Message
 Python/Zope vs. Java/JSP

I've used Java/JSP at work but I'm just starting to learn python for fun.

Was wondering how Python/Zope compared to Java/JSP in terms of speed,
scalability, etc.

Any help appreciated. Thanks.

-Ted



Thu, 06 Nov 2003 14:35:21 GMT  
 Python/Zope vs. Java/JSP

Quote:

> I've used Java/JSP at work but I'm just starting to learn Python for fun.

> Was wondering how Python/Zope compared to Java/JSP in terms of speed,
> scalability, etc.

> Any help appreciated. Thanks.

> -Ted

That depends on how well you can write efficient code in each langauge. I
have seen some very fast and some very slow zope sites. The problem is
optimizations in one language sometimes translate badly in another
language. However programmers tend to learn one "best" way to do things and
then use it in all their other languages without realizing they were doing
things in the most inefficient manner possible in the new language.


Thu, 06 Nov 2003 17:00:04 GMT  
 Python/Zope vs. Java/JSP
Hi,

I've worked in Java/JSP for a long time and briefly with Zope ( allthough
been a fanatic Python programmer for about 3 years ).
My experience is that all java-based servlet solutions share the same
draw-backs; long response time on first page hit ( loading of needed classes
etc. ),
, insane hardware requirements and lots of code to do even the smallest
thing. Then the good things; Enhydra ( look at www.enhydra.org -> complete
seperation of design and functionality) and Borland JBuilder. Enhydra is a
very good application server with an active community and JBuilder is a very
good IDE with support for Enhydra development. A very good combination.

Zope is known to be a bit complex when you want to create your own products,
and in my mind, more complex than java servlets/JSP. If you don't take the
initial response time of java-servlets java-based application servers seem
to have a better response time too. Simple tests done in the project I've
been involved with show Zope-based servers serving about 20% pages pr.
second compared to Enhydra. Then again Java takes HUGE amounts of RAM. I
mean really immense amounts of RAM, development machines with less than
256MB is useless using Enhydra/JBuilder. Zope is much nicer in that aspect.

The development of ZEO ( Zope Enterprise Objects ) will also make stuff like
fail-over, clustering etc. available ( I think ) so Zope won't fall short
compared to java-based solutions were these things are mature and presently
available.

I'd say if you can handle 20 lines of code to send a simple response to a
client, have the money to upgrade all server and development machines and
buy expensive development tools go for Java. If you like the smoothness of
Python and got time to invest in learning Zope, stick to the snake ;->

Thomas


Quote:
> I've used Java/JSP at work but I'm just starting to learn Python for fun.

> Was wondering how Python/Zope compared to Java/JSP in terms of speed,
> scalability, etc.

> Any help appreciated. Thanks.

> -Ted



Fri, 07 Nov 2003 23:12:31 GMT  
 Python/Zope vs. Java/JSP

Quote:

> Hi,

> I've worked in Java/JSP for a long time and briefly with Zope ( allthough
> been a fanatic Python programmer for about 3 years ).
> My experience is that all java-based servlet solutions share the same
> draw-backs; long response time on first page hit ( loading of needed
> classes etc. ),
> , insane hardware requirements and lots of code to do even the smallest
> thing. Then the good things; Enhydra ( look at www.enhydra.org -> complete
> seperation of design and functionality) and Borland JBuilder. Enhydra is a
> very good application server with an active community and JBuilder is a
> very good IDE with support for Enhydra development. A very good
> combination.

> Zope is known to be a bit complex when you want to create your own
> products, and in my mind, more complex than java servlets/JSP. If you
> don't take the initial response time of java-servlets java-based
> application servers seem to have a better response time too. Simple tests
> done in the project I've been involved with show Zope-based servers
> serving about 20% pages pr. second compared to Enhydra. Then again Java
> takes HUGE amounts of RAM. I mean really immense amounts of RAM,
> development machines with less than 256MB is useless using
> Enhydra/JBuilder. Zope is much nicer in that aspect.

> The development of ZEO ( Zope Enterprise Objects ) will also make stuff
> like fail-over, clustering etc. available ( I think ) so Zope won't fall
> short compared to java-based solutions were these things are mature and
> presently available.

> I'd say if you can handle 20 lines of code to send a simple response to a
> client, have the money to upgrade all server and development machines and
> buy expensive development tools go for Java. If you like the smoothness of
> Python and got time to invest in learning Zope, stick to the snake ;->

> Thomas

Most programmers problems I have seen with zope so far is a complete
refusal to listen to how things work and refusal to read manuals. If you
understand python and just read the zope book which is freely available and
a tutorial or two that someone will point out on #zope on
irc.openprojects.net developing python products in zope is very easy. I
have seen too many though that had it in their head that x is the way zope
worked when it was not and they refused to consider that it did not work
that way and that in fact it worked in way y which when finally bashed into
their head they agreed that was an easier way to work with things.
Programmers carry with them many preconceived notions of the "one true way"
and this gets them into trouble a lot.

Also for zope speed you can improve it a lot by putting a lot of memory on
the box and changing the way the db runs from the database control panels.
If you tell it to cache a huge number of objects at a time then you only
have a latency the first time the object is accessed after that the respons
is very quick.

There are many optimizations you can do with zope and it is not that hard
to learn them however most don't take the time.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:


>> I've used Java/JSP at work but I'm just starting to learn Python for fun.

>> Was wondering how Python/Zope compared to Java/JSP in terms of speed,
>> scalability, etc.

>> Any help appreciated. Thanks.

>> -Ted



Sat, 08 Nov 2003 04:28:34 GMT  
 Python/Zope vs. Java/JSP
As I said, I've been briefly working with Zope and even using the manuals
and docs, which I did read, Zope isn't
that easy. If you've seen reviews of Zope around the net you'll see that one
of the many cons the reviewers have against Zope is the steep learning curve
when faced with making new products, at least that was the case when I read
those reviews. Haven't used Zope since.

This wasn't an attack on Zope, I like it and will create products for it in
the near future, but when compared to java-based solutions it looks like it
could use some more time to mature. Or ... perhaps I'm wrong ??

Thomas


Quote:

> > Hi,

> > I've worked in Java/JSP for a long time and briefly with Zope (
allthough
> > been a fanatic Python programmer for about 3 years ).
> > My experience is that all java-based servlet solutions share the same
> > draw-backs; long response time on first page hit ( loading of needed
> > classes etc. ),
> > , insane hardware requirements and lots of code to do even the smallest
> > thing. Then the good things; Enhydra ( look at www.enhydra.org ->
complete
> > seperation of design and functionality) and Borland JBuilder. Enhydra is
a
> > very good application server with an active community and JBuilder is a
> > very good IDE with support for Enhydra development. A very good
> > combination.

> > Zope is known to be a bit complex when you want to create your own
> > products, and in my mind, more complex than java servlets/JSP. If you
> > don't take the initial response time of java-servlets java-based
> > application servers seem to have a better response time too. Simple
tests
> > done in the project I've been involved with show Zope-based servers
> > serving about 20% pages pr. second compared to Enhydra. Then again Java
> > takes HUGE amounts of RAM. I mean really immense amounts of RAM,
> > development machines with less than 256MB is useless using
> > Enhydra/JBuilder. Zope is much nicer in that aspect.

> > The development of ZEO ( Zope Enterprise Objects ) will also make stuff
> > like fail-over, clustering etc. available ( I think ) so Zope won't fall
> > short compared to java-based solutions were these things are mature and
> > presently available.

> > I'd say if you can handle 20 lines of code to send a simple response to
a
> > client, have the money to upgrade all server and development machines
and
> > buy expensive development tools go for Java. If you like the smoothness
of
> > Python and got time to invest in learning Zope, stick to the snake ;->

> > Thomas

> Most programmers problems I have seen with zope so far is a complete
> refusal to listen to how things work and refusal to read manuals. If you
> understand python and just read the zope book which is freely available
and
> a tutorial or two that someone will point out on #zope on
> irc.openprojects.net developing python products in zope is very easy. I
> have seen too many though that had it in their head that x is the way zope
> worked when it was not and they refused to consider that it did not work
> that way and that in fact it worked in way y which when finally bashed
into
> their head they agreed that was an easier way to work with things.
> Programmers carry with them many preconceived notions of the "one true
way"
> and this gets them into trouble a lot.

> Also for zope speed you can improve it a lot by putting a lot of memory on
> the box and changing the way the db runs from the database control panels.
> If you tell it to cache a huge number of objects at a time then you only
> have a latency the first time the object is accessed after that the
respons
> is very quick.

> There are many optimizations you can do with zope and it is not that hard
> to learn them however most don't take the time.



> >> I've used Java/JSP at work but I'm just starting to learn Python for
fun.

> >> Was wondering how Python/Zope compared to Java/JSP in terms of speed,
> >> scalability, etc.

> >> Any help appreciated. Thanks.

> >> -Ted



Sat, 08 Nov 2003 20:46:03 GMT  
 Python/Zope vs. Java/JSP

Quote:

> Most programmers problems I have seen with zope so far is a complete
> refusal to listen to how things work and refusal to read manuals.

For a long time, however, there weren't really any decent manuals - at
least not on product development.

Quote:
> If you understand python and just read the zope book which is freely
> available and a tutorial or two that someone will point out on #zope on
> irc.openprojects.net developing python products in zope is very easy.

I trust that the tutorials are broader in scope and better than they
once were, then. Most of them seemed to concentrate on content
management before - an artifact of Zope's origins in Principia, I
would have thought.

Quote:
> I  have seen too many though that had it in their head that x is the way zope
> worked when it was not and they refused to consider that it did not work
> that way and that in fact it worked in way y which when finally bashed into
> their head they agreed that was an easier way to work with things.
> Programmers carry with them many preconceived notions of the "one true way"
> and this gets them into trouble a lot.

Indeed, but for those of us who were familiar with the concepts of
acquisition and the nuances of DTML from their beginnings in Bobo, and
who were enthusiastic about that particular technology, Zope just
seemed to make the development of Web applications more tedious and
frustrating. It's pretty hard to keep one's enthusiasm in such an
environment, especially when the documentation is lacking and the
experts just keep banging on about "the Zen of Zope".

Personally, Webware (http://webware.sourceforge.net) seems a lot more
promising for Web application development - at least in the areas
where Zope-style content management isn't important in the application
being developed. It's also much easier to get under the hood in the
spirit of open source. And I would think that not bundling an object
database also gives it the edge in terms of project acceptance -
people get quite unnerved by such things when choosing technology
platforms.

Regards,

Paul



Sun, 09 Nov 2003 17:13:15 GMT  
 Python/Zope vs. Java/JSP

Quote:
>For a long time, however, there weren't really any decent manuals - at
>least not on product development.

There are three new books coming up:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735711372/o/qid=992079065/sr=...
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1886411573/o/qid=992079065/sr=...
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672321335/o/qid=992079065/sr=...

The first one is also freely available on
http://www.zope.org/Members/michel/ZB/ of course.

Regards,
Ren Pijlman



Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:36:15 GMT  
 
 [ 7 post ] 

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