Upgrading to Perl 5.6 under Debian 2.2 
Author Message
 Upgrading to Perl 5.6 under Debian 2.2

Hello:

In brief, I changed my mind about upgrading to 5.6 under Debian
due to the problems it was causing in the operating system.
I have downgraded, but I wish to upgrade some time in the near
future, but I also wish to find some way to get the new version
of Perl to know about Debian's Perl scripts/modules/libraries
(for things like apt, emacs, window managers, Gimp, dselect,
and so on), which almost never reside in a version-specific
directory under the Perl directory tree. The adds/upgrades
I intend to do in particular are sweeping, including the
addition or upgrading of the internet-specific and CGI modules.
CPAN requires that I upgrade to Perl 5.6 first before I begin.
The upgrading I was doing was through CPAN using the Perl shell
command:
    perl -MCPAN -e shell
and then using various "install" commands for each module or
library. But this appears to break many of Debian's scripts.

Any help on how to upgrade Perl while recognising Debian's
scripts and libraries would be appreciated.

Paul King



Sun, 13 Jul 2003 19:54:22 GMT  
 Upgrading to Perl 5.6 under Debian 2.2
[removed comp.lang.perl. That group hasn't existed for years. Notify
your news admin]
[remove alt.perl. That group doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned]

On Wed, 24 Jan 2001 11:54:22 GMT,

Quote:
> Hello:

> In brief, I changed my mind about upgrading to 5.6 under Debian
> due to the problems it was causing in the operating system.

I doubt it sincerely. Perl would not in any way cause your OS to become
unstable. Maybe you've got some tools that were expecting another
version of Perl, and that didn't deal with the newer version correctly,
but I'd hardly call that 'problem in the operating system'.

What exactly were the symptoms? And maybe you should report them to
Debian, so they can investigate how it is possible that something like
Perl can cause their OS to have problems.

Quote:
> I have downgraded, but I wish to upgrade some time in the near
> future, but I also wish to find some way to get the new version
> of Perl to know about Debian's Perl scripts/modules/libraries
> (for things like apt, emacs, window managers, Gimp, dselect,
> and so on), which almost never reside in a version-specific
> directory under the Perl directory tree. The adds/upgrades

Install Perl in /opt/perl-$version. Set your system wide PERL5LIB path
to include any other directories you want searched for modules. scripts
are never a problem.

How does the perl version that Debian installs deal with this? Because
they of course also don't have these modules in the standard directory.

Of course, you can always install the modules in your perl tree
yourself.

Quote:
> I intend to do in particular are sweeping, including the
> addition or upgrading of the internet-specific and CGI modules.

The CGI module comes with Perl. All you need to do is upgrade it now and
again. The libnet and libwww modules almost install themselves.

Quote:
> CPAN requires that I upgrade to Perl 5.6 first before I begin.

Huh? If it does, you might want to get an older version of CPAN, but I
doubt it would.

Quote:
> The upgrading I was doing was through CPAN using the Perl shell
> command:
>     perl -MCPAN -e shell
> and then using various "install" commands for each module or
> library. But this appears to break many of Debian's scripts.

Well... No offense, but then the Debian scripts are broken. They
shouldn't care.

Quote:
> Any help on how to upgrade Perl while recognising Debian's
> scripts and libraries would be appreciated.

I fail to see the real problem. If you upgrade Perl in-place, you should
still have all your old modules around. if you install a new version in
a different place, you just need to install the appropriate modules, or
set PERL5LIB.

Doesn't Debian have a package fot 5.6.0 yet? How Slack.

Martien
--
Martien Verbruggen              |
Interactive Media Division      | If at first you don't succeed, try
Commercial Dynamics Pty. Ltd.   | again. Then quit; there's no use
NSW, Australia                  | being a damn fool about it.



Sun, 13 Jul 2003 20:43:39 GMT  
 Upgrading to Perl 5.6 under Debian 2.2
Thus spake Martien Verbruggen on Wed, 24 Jan 2001 23:43:39 +1100:

Quote:

>... Maybe you've got some tools that were expecting another
>version of Perl, and that didn't deal with the newer version correctly,
>but I'd hardly call that 'problem in the operating system'.

Actually, I once managed to break lp on a DG/UX installation by upgrading
to Perl 5. Seriously, the lp that shipped with the system depended on Perl
4, and didn't work with 5. The word from the vendor was "upgrade DG/UX!",
but since (for us) that would have meant a hardware upgrade too, it was no
go. I ended up running /usr/bin/perl5 next to /usr/bin/perl (4), and did

Cheers,
Damian (who is now two jobs past that nightmare site)



Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:18:50 GMT  
 Upgrading to Perl 5.6 under Debian 2.2

Quote:

> [removed comp.lang.perl. That group hasn't existed for years. Notify
> your news admin]
> [remove alt.perl. That group doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned]

There are about 500+ posters who don't seem to agree with you :) However,
unless there is proof that the forementioned groups are deprecated, I
am in favour of posting anywhere I feel I can obtain the proper help.

Quote:
> On Wed, 24 Jan 2001 11:54:22 GMT,

>> Hello:

>> In brief, I changed my mind about upgrading to 5.6 under Debian due to
>> the problems it was causing in the operating system.

> I doubt it sincerely. Perl would not in any way cause your OS to become
> unstable. Maybe you've got some tools that were expecting another
> version of Perl, and that didn't deal with the newer version correctly,
> but I'd hardly call that 'problem in the operating system'.

No. There are simply tools that version 5.6 claims does not exist, when
they in fact do. They break dselect and some window manager applets. I
think was clear enough about what I meant when I said "problems in the
operating system", having now repeated myself. These are "system programs",
as far as I am concerned. Having dropped back to the original version has
fixed these problems.

Quote:

> What exactly were the symptoms? And maybe you should report them to
> Debian, so they can investigate how it is possible that something like
> Perl can cause their OS to have problems.

I think the real cause is Debian's over-dependance on Perl, and on its
insistance to "expect" files such as libraries and modules to be in a
certain place. That place being, a non-version-specific directory tree under
/usr/lib/perl5. After upgrading, all that was "forgotten", even though
the files were stil there. My question concerns: how can I upgrade in
such a way that the new Perl "remembers" where the old libraries/modules are?
(you might have answered that below)

Quote:
>> CPAN requires that I upgrade to Perl 5.6 first before I begin.

> Huh? If it does, you might want to get an older version of CPAN, but I
> doubt it would.

Well, this has always been a problem, and I appear to have no
control over my decision to do this, when I use CPAN for the firt time
on a Linux installation. When I had RedHat, I went along with
it and had none of the problems I experience now under Debian. It seems
that my problems therefore are Debian-specific.

Quote:
>> The upgrading I was doing was through CPAN using the Perl shell
>> command:
>>     perl -MCPAN -e shell
>> and then using various "install" commands for each module or  library.
>> But this appears to break many of Debian's scripts.

> Well... No offense, but then the Debian scripts are broken. They
> shouldn't care.

>> Any help on how to upgrade Perl while recognising Debian's  scripts and
>> libraries would be appreciated.

> I fail to see the real problem. If you upgrade Perl in-place, you should
> still have all your old modules around.

Correct. They in fact, are still around. The new Perl just doesn't notice
them.

Quote:
> if you install a new version in
> a different place, you just need to install the appropriate modules, or
> set PERL5LIB.

Pardon my ignorance, but where do I set this? /etc/profile?

Paul

Quote:

> Doesn't Debian have a package fot 5.6.0 yet? How Slack.

> Martien



Mon, 14 Jul 2003 00:00:16 GMT  
 Upgrading to Perl 5.6 under Debian 2.2

Quote:
>Thus spake Martien Verbruggen on Wed, 24 Jan 2001 23:43:39 +1100:

>>... Maybe you've got some tools that were expecting another
>>version of Perl, and that didn't deal with the newer version correctly,
>>but I'd hardly call that 'problem in the operating system'.

>Actually, I once managed to break lp on a DG/UX installation by upgrading
>to Perl 5. Seriously, the lp that shipped with the system depended on Perl
>4, and didn't work with 5. The word from the vendor was "upgrade DG/UX!",
>but since (for us) that would have meant a hardware upgrade too, it was no
>go. I ended up running /usr/bin/perl5 next to /usr/bin/perl (4), and did


The root of many of the problems after the upgrade was in wondering



things would install fairly invisibly, as I would expect.


Paul

Quote:
>Cheers,
>Damian (who is now two jobs past that nightmare site)



Mon, 14 Jul 2003 00:14:20 GMT  
 Upgrading to Perl 5.6 under Debian 2.2

Quote:



>> [removed comp.lang.perl. That group hasn't existed for years. Notify
>> your news admin]
>> [remove alt.perl. That group doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned]

>There are about 500+ posters who don't seem to agree with you :) However,
>unless there is proof that the forementioned groups are deprecated, I
>am in favour of posting anywhere I feel I can obtain the proper help.

As far as alt.perl is concerned, the "validity" of an alt group has no
formal meaning.  If people are using it, it's valid for them; and most
server admins would probably add it on reqest from one of their users.

As far as comp.lang.perl is missing, it *is* invalid in the sense that it
is not recognized by the moderator of news.announce.newgroups.  Properly
configured servers do not carry it, and probably many fewer admins would
add it if requested by one of their users.

--- paste ---

Path: uunet!in2.uu.net!tale

Newsgroups: comp.lang.perl
Subject: rmgroup comp.lang.perl
Control: rmgroup comp.lang.perl


Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 14:30:13 GMT
Lines: 3
Xref: uunet control.rmgroup:69

comp.lang.perl has been superseded by comp.lang.perl.misc, an unmoderated
newsgroup which passed its vote for creation by 328:48 as reported in
news.announce.newgroups on 1 May 1995.

--- end paste ---

--

Dept. of Physics and Computer Science        Clinton, South Carolina USA



Mon, 14 Jul 2003 00:28:16 GMT  
 Upgrading to Perl 5.6 under Debian 2.2

Quote:

>I think the real cause is Debian's over-dependance on Perl, and on its
>insistance to "expect" files such as libraries and modules to be in a
>certain place.

I think it makes perfect sense for Debian to have such a dependence on perl.
It saves them re-inventing the same facilities over and over again in each
of the packages that would have to be rewritten to not depend on perl.
This is why perl is tagged as 'Required'.  It is also why updating it
is not to be done lightly and the whole 5.005 -> 5.6 transition needs
to be done carefully, as you are discovering.

If you want to build a version yourself, one easy thing to do is
build your own and put it in /usr/local/bin/perl (or wherever you like
as long as you don't touch Debian's version).  You can use your new perl
for whatever you like while still having your Debian version work just fine.
(This advice applies to Solaris 8 users too, since Sun now ships perl5.005
with Solaris 8 and you probably don't want to mess with the Sun installation
either.)

Another possibility is to get the source from Debian itself.  
The .diff file contains the debian/rules file used to build perl --
using it is one way to add in the appropriate extra directories.

What is best depends on why you wish to upgrade to 5.6.0.

[Another responder asked]

Quote:
>> Doesn't Debian have a package fot 5.6.0 yet? How Slack.

Yes, it does, but the original poster is running the current
"stable" distribution, which has 5.005_03.  Perl-5.6.0 is
currently in the 'unstable' branch.

--

    Dept. of Physics
    Lafayette College, Easton PA 18042



Mon, 14 Jul 2003 03:29:13 GMT  
 Upgrading to Perl 5.6 under Debian 2.2
Thus spake Paul King on Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:14:20 GMT:

Quote:
>...
>The root of many of the problems after the upgrade was in wondering


>reinstall Debian's Perl 5.005 over again. If there was a way to set

>things would install fairly invisibly, as I would expect.

See the lib manpage ('perldoc lib'). PERL5LIB is just an environment
variable -- check the output of set, setenv or env depending on your
shell.

Quote:



By setting PERL5LIB and PERLLIB to different things. This won't work for
you, since both your perl versions will use PERL5LIB. You COULD do some
hack like only run your 5.6 programs from an environment that has PERL5LIB
set, and unset it for 5.005 (assuming 5.005 is compiled with the right lib
paths). Or run them via a shell script that changes PERL5LIB.

Otherwise you could set something like PERL560LIB and add something

files. This is also something you want to avoid doing.

I though Debian rev'd frequently -- isn't there an upgrade that includes
5.6?

HTH

Cheers,
Damian



Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:07:10 GMT  
 Upgrading to Perl 5.6 under Debian 2.2
So blathered Damian James on 25 Jan 2001 01:07:10 GMT:

Quote:
>...
>See the lib manpage ('perldoc lib'). PERL5LIB is just an environment
>variable -- check the output of set, setenv or env depending on your
>shell.

s/lib/perlrun/g;

Just not with it today. :-)

Cheers,
Damian



Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:09:44 GMT  
 Upgrading to Perl 5.6 under Debian 2.2
[Removed groups again]

On Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:00:16 GMT,

Quote:


>> [removed comp.lang.perl. That group hasn't existed for years. Notify
>> your news admin]
>> [remove alt.perl. That group doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned]

> There are about 500+ posters who don't seem to agree with you :) However,
> unless there is proof that the forementioned groups are deprecated, I
> am in favour of posting anywhere I feel I can obtain the proper help.

comp.lang.perl ceased to exist when the current structure under
comp.lang.perl.* was put in place. The fact that many news admins
still carry it doesn't make it right. It's just laziness.

I remove alt.perl, because, frankly, I cannot see any reason to have a
perl group in the alt hierarchy that would discuss language issues.
besides that, only one of the news servers I use carries it.

Quote:
>> On Wed, 24 Jan 2001 11:54:22 GMT,

>>> Hello:

>>> In brief, I changed my mind about upgrading to 5.6 under Debian due to
>>> the problems it was causing in the operating system.

>> I doubt it sincerely. Perl would not in any way cause your OS to become
>> unstable. Maybe you've got some tools that were expecting another
>> version of Perl, and that didn't deal with the newer version correctly,
>> but I'd hardly call that 'problem in the operating system'.

> No. There are simply tools that version 5.6 claims does not exist, when
> they in fact do. They break dselect and some window manager applets. I
> think was clear enough about what I meant when I said "problems in the
> operating system", having now repeated myself. These are "system programs",
> as far as I am concerned. Having dropped back to the original version has
> fixed these problems.

Ok. I misunderstood what you meant by your original statement.

Quote:
>> What exactly were the symptoms? And maybe you should report them to
>> Debian, so they can investigate how it is possible that something like
>> Perl can cause their OS to have problems.

> I think the real cause is Debian's over-dependance on Perl, and on its
> insistance to "expect" files such as libraries and modules to be in a
> certain place. That place being, a non-version-specific directory tree under
> /usr/lib/perl5. After upgrading, all that was "forgotten", even though
> the files were stil there. My question concerns: how can I upgrade in
> such a way that the new Perl "remembers" where the old libraries/modules are?
> (you might have answered that below)

Perl 5.6.0 does some things slightly differently when deciding which
bits of the lib tree to look at to find modules. There is some
discussion on this in the INSTALL file, under

=head1 Coexistence with earlier versions of perl5

you'll also need to note the sections that talk about binary
compatibility with 5.005 extensions. The section

=head2 Upgrading from 5.005 to 5.6.0

is short, but points back to the one mentioned earlier.

I still find it a bit odd that the modules couldn't be found at all.
According to INSTALL they should be..

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
>>> The upgrading I was doing was through CPAN using the Perl shell
>>> command:
>>>     perl -MCPAN -e shell
>>> and then using various "install" commands for each module or  library.
>>> But this appears to break many of Debian's scripts.

>> Well... No offense, but then the Debian scripts are broken. They
>> shouldn't care.

>>> Any help on how to upgrade Perl while recognising Debian's  scripts and
>>> libraries would be appreciated.

>> I fail to see the real problem. If you upgrade Perl in-place, you should
>> still have all your old modules around.

> Correct. They in fact, are still around. The new Perl just doesn't notice
> them.

odd... That is what surprises me, since it is explicitly stated that
Perl should look in the old lib tree of Perl, UNLESS Debian actually

changes over manually.

Quote:
>> if you install a new version in
>> a different place, you just need to install the appropriate modules, or
>> set PERL5LIB.

> Pardon my ignorance, but where do I set this? /etc/profile?

In your environment. It's an environment variable. You either put it
in your .login or .profile, or in a system wide login file
(/etc/profile or something like that)

I'd have a thorough read of INSTALL, and check all the mentions of
5.005 in there.

Martien
--
Martien Verbruggen              |
Interactive Media Division      | Unix is the answer, but only if you
Commercial Dynamics Pty. Ltd.   | phrase the question very carefully
NSW, Australia                  |



Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:39:03 GMT  
 Upgrading to Perl 5.6 under Debian 2.2
Thanks for everyone's help so far. I will try out some of the
suggestions.

Paul King



Tue, 15 Jul 2003 20:50:42 GMT  
 
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