StudlyCaps 
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 StudlyCaps

If Lispers feel justified in getting hysterical over a non-issue like
StudlyCaps vs studly-caps, why are they surprised that The Great
Unwashed have a cow over parentheses?

--

  kenny tilton
  clinisys, inc
  ---------------------------------------------------------------
""Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty-five years, Doctor,
   and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it.""
                                                   Elwood P. Dowd



Sun, 01 May 2005 16:31:01 GMT  
 StudlyCaps

Quote:
>>>>> On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:31:01 GMT, Kenny Tilton ("Kenny") writes:

 Kenny> If Lispers feel justified in getting hysterical over a non-issue like
 Kenny> StudlyCaps vs studly-caps, why are they surprised that The Great
 Kenny> Unwashed have a cow over parentheses?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say in the first part,
but as to the second: who's surprised?



Sun, 01 May 2005 16:51:09 GMT  
 StudlyCaps

Quote:

> If Lispers feel justified in getting hysterical over a non-issue like
> StudlyCaps vs studly-caps, why are they surprised that The Great
> Unwashed have a cow over parentheses?

I don't want to make any sweeping generalizations, but it seems to me
that both of these reactions spring from something analogous to a rule
of thumb that when you are in country X, you ought to try not only to
speak the language of country X with syntactic correctness, but also use
the appropriate semantics and idioms of that language.

Having a cow over parentheses is like going to, say, China and just
speaking English to everyone, expecting them to understand. And when
they don't understand, the solution is to speak English louder and
slower. I suppose natives oughtn't necessarily be surprised at this
behavior, but it might somewhat justify the tendency of the natives to
think that the foreigners were a bunch of {*filter*}y morons.

Similarly, if you know and speak the language, but don't fully
understand the idioms and colloquial usage, you might say something that
people don't fully understand, or that just seems a bit "off" to them.
This is not necessarily cause to get hysterical, but it's not
necessarily an irrational behavior, either. Carrying this back to
programming, when I program in Java, I use StudlyCaps, because it fits
in with what (apparently) most other people, including the library
designers, do. When I'm writing Common Lisp, I use non-studly-caps for
the same reasons.

Joe



Sun, 01 May 2005 18:03:09 GMT  
 StudlyCaps

The majority of programming languages aren't specified with s-exprs, being
biased towards Algol like syntax.  It's most likely that a persons first
language contact will be with an Algol syntax biased language.  Until
further education takes place, the parenthesis may seem puzzling.

I'm not sure if Lispers find this surprising.  Tedious, predictable maybe.

I remember first coming across Lisp (years ago), being a C/C++ programmer,
and being hit by:

1. Parenthesis.
2. Strange keywords (lambda, car, cdr, mapcar...)

Because I found Lisp looked totally different to other languages, I was
hooked.

How many non-Lisp programmers ever have parenthesis/s-exprs explained to
them?  That they don't exist soley to make Lisp look funky or obscure but
are instrumental in providing a higher level of programming flexibility and
power?

The keywords take some explaining because they are either legacy or of
mathmatical origin, which may be beyond the knowledge base of many
programmers.

As a side note, the other thing that might put people of is seeing how the
Lisp community continues to ruthlessly tear pieces our of each other.

Hark, I hear the distant engines of the mighty flame chariots...

--
Justin Johnson


Quote:
> If Lispers feel justified in getting hysterical over a non-issue like
> StudlyCaps vs studly-caps, why are they surprised that The Great
> Unwashed have a cow over parentheses?

> --

>   kenny tilton
>   clinisys, inc
>   ---------------------------------------------------------------
> ""Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty-five years, Doctor,
>    and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it.""
>                                                    Elwood P. Dowd



Sun, 01 May 2005 19:12:41 GMT  
 StudlyCaps

Quote:

> If Lispers feel justified in getting hysterical over a non-issue like
> StudlyCaps vs studly-caps, why are they surprised that The Great
> Unwashed have a cow over parentheses?

I think I missed the StudlyCaps issue, so I don't know what you
mean. Hysterical people abound: it is wise to ignore them.

Now that trick with the cow and the paretheses sounds really
interesting...

Regs.

Mario S. Mommer



Sun, 01 May 2005 23:12:27 GMT  
 StudlyCaps

Quote:

> If Lispers feel justified in getting hysterical over a non-issue like
> StudlyCaps vs studly-caps, why are they surprised that The Great
> Unwashed have a cow over parentheses?

It's not only Lispers. For example, here is Rob Pike's view:

    I eschew embedded capital letters in names; to my prose-oriented eyes,
    they are too awkward to read comfortably. They jangle like bad typography.
    [_Notes on Programming in C_, Feb 21, 1989]



Sun, 01 May 2005 23:57:10 GMT  
 StudlyCaps

Quote:

> Because I found Lisp looked totally different to other languages, I was
> hooked.

Good one.

Quote:
> As a side note, the other thing that might put people of is seeing how the
> Lisp community continues to ruthlessly tear pieces our of each other.

I noticed the sme thing at my tai chi school. You'd think we'd be thick
as thieves since we all have the same special interest and even the same
teacher. Not! So my theory is: create any group of people and infighting
and gossip will break out immediately.

--

  kenny tilton
  clinisys, inc
  ---------------------------------------------------------------
""Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty-five years, Doctor,
   and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it.""
                                                   Elwood P. Dowd



Mon, 02 May 2005 01:01:28 GMT  
 StudlyCaps

Quote:

> ...So my theory is: create any group of people and infighting and
> gossip will break out immediately.

Ahhh. It is the inner monkey in us all trying to escape...

;)w



Mon, 02 May 2005 01:07:12 GMT  
 StudlyCaps

Quote:


>> If Lispers feel justified in getting hysterical over a non-issue like
>> StudlyCaps vs studly-caps, why are they surprised that The Great
>> Unwashed have a cow over parentheses?

> Similarly, if you know and speak the language, but don't fully
> understand the idioms and colloquial usage, you might say something that
> people don't fully understand, or that just seems a bit "off" to them.
> This is not necessarily cause to get hysterical, but it's not
> necessarily an irrational behavior, either.

Agreed. My use of "hysterical" was a bit over the top, but I have in the
past gotten some relatively strong objections to my use of StCaps. I
plan to back off that for shared stuff precisely to do as Romans do.

But my implicit point was that, in re extending the use of Lsip, sexprs
are a much bigger problem than it should be, because other people have
generalized the conventional synatx to be the preferred appearance of
all languages.

Mind you, I am not saying change the syntax. Dylan been there done that
to no avail, at the cost of losing a lot of Lispers.

--

  kenny tilton
  clinisys, inc
  ---------------------------------------------------------------
""Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty-five years, Doctor,
   and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it.""
                                                   Elwood P. Dowd



Mon, 02 May 2005 01:15:34 GMT  
 StudlyCaps

Quote:

> I remember first coming across Lisp (years ago), being a C/C++ programmer,
> and being hit by:

> 1. Parenthesis.
> 2. Strange keywords (lambda, car, cdr, mapcar...)

I must be the only person in the entire world who can hold strangeness
unevaluated.

Quote:
> Because I found Lisp looked totally different to other languages, I was
> hooked.

At least you're a neophile =)  Seen Forth?

Quote:
> The keywords take some explaining because they are either legacy or of
> mathmatical origin, which may be beyond the knowledge base of many
> programmers.

I suppose that there are many programmers who were ignorant of the origin
of car/cdr/lambda' -- but I don't see how this ignorance necessitates
more explaining.  "Undefined terms" from Geometry come to mind.

Quote:
> As a side note, the other thing that might put people of is seeing how the
> Lisp community continues to ruthlessly tear pieces our of each other.

After listening to cll for a month or so, I've seen many people
complaining about all the {*filter*} and no {*filter*}.  Maybe if people
started ignoring it they would see that it isn't there?


Mon, 02 May 2005 01:19:07 GMT  
 StudlyCaps

Quote:


>>If Lispers feel justified in getting hysterical over a non-issue like
>>StudlyCaps vs studly-caps, why are they surprised that The Great
>>Unwashed have a cow over parentheses?

> It's not only Lispers. For example, here is Rob Pike's view:

>     I eschew embedded capital letters in names; to my prose-oriented eyes,
>     they are too awkward to read comfortably. They jangle like bad typography.
>     [_Notes on Programming in C_, Feb 21, 1989]

Interesting, I myself get distracted by all the hyphens.

At the same time, i use s/c only in class names and slotnames. I suppose
I shouldn't care if I am designing at the right level of abstraction,
but I like knowing if I am looking at a slot reference or a function
doing more interesting stuff. I guess if I see a slot (and know it) I
know I do not have to go check "what's in there" when working on
unfamiliar code.

ironically, i hate reaching for the shift key, so i should hate s/c. go
figger.

--

  kenny tilton
  clinisys, inc
  ---------------------------------------------------------------
""Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty-five years, Doctor,
   and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it.""
                                                   Elwood P. Dowd



Mon, 02 May 2005 01:22:04 GMT  
 StudlyCaps


Quote:



>>> If Lispers feel justified in getting hysterical over a non-issue like
>>> StudlyCaps vs studly-caps, why are they surprised that The Great
>>> Unwashed have a cow over parentheses?

>> Similarly, if you know and speak the language, but don't fully
>> understand the idioms and colloquial usage, you might say something that
>> people don't fully understand, or that just seems a bit "off" to them.
>> This is not necessarily cause to get hysterical, but it's not
>> necessarily an irrational behavior, either.

>Agreed. My use of "hysterical" was a bit over the top, but I have in the
>past gotten some relatively strong objections to my use of StCaps. I
>plan to back off that for shared stuff precisely to do as Romans do.

Quite apart from the social aspect, I am intrigued that
you are actually able to use StudlyCaps in something
approaching a natural fashion in CL...  How?


Mon, 02 May 2005 02:00:15 GMT  
 StudlyCaps

Quote:


> > Because I found Lisp looked totally different to other languages, I was
> > hooked.

> Good one.

> > As a side note, the other thing that might put people of is seeing how the
> > Lisp community continues to ruthlessly tear pieces our of each other.

Well there are two main ideas about how to treat peers here:
1: be nice to people when you point out there mistakes, so they do not
become hurt
2: correct people and expect them to deal with it like {*filter*}s and
professionals

I belong to two.  And there have been discussions between them about
method.

We also have more then our fair share of nuts that wander in and
sometimes stay.  The you said dirty words brigade comes to mind, not
the people who are in group one.  But the I will use these
unacceptable words/tactic, that I abhor, against you the foul evil
one nut jobs that come out of left field.  They almost always attack
Erik out of the blue.  

Quote:

> I noticed the sme thing at my tai chi school. You'd think we'd be
> thick as thieves since we all have the same special interest and even
> the same teacher. Not! So my theory is: create any group of people and
> infighting and gossip will break out immediately.

Well are you all there for the same reason?  There is the classic
guys in a cooking class bit that says "If a guy signs up for a cooking
class he is probably there to meet women, learning to cook is not the
main reason" .  And yes some men want to learn to cook.  

Another theory is that groups form in response to outside pressure,
they are forged.  Your school has no external force pushing you
together.

marc

Quote:

> --

>   kenny tilton
>   clinisys, inc
>   ---------------------------------------------------------------
> ""Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty-five years, Doctor,
>    and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it.""
>                                                    Elwood P. Dowd



Mon, 02 May 2005 02:07:51 GMT  
 StudlyCaps

Quote:

> Quite apart from the social aspect, I am intrigued that
> you are actually able to use StudlyCaps in something
> approaching a natural fashion in CL...  How?

Not sure what you mean by how or "natural fashion", but maybe you mean
where/when do I use them?

I use them for class names and slot names. functions get hyphens.

--

  kenny tilton
  clinisys, inc
  ---------------------------------------------------------------
""Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty-five years, Doctor,
   and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it.""
                                                   Elwood P. Dowd



Mon, 02 May 2005 02:23:16 GMT  
 StudlyCaps

Quote:


>> ...So my theory is: create any group of people and infighting and
>> gossip will break out immediately.

>Ahhh. It is the inner monkey in us all trying to escape...

No more dancing monkeys please.


Mon, 02 May 2005 02:21:30 GMT  
 
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