RATES, why don't they post rates? 
Author Message
 RATES, why don't they post rates?

Errr... Robert? What do you think DD, and everyone else in the newsgroups,
have been yelling about for the last 6+ months??

--
The Programmer Has Spoken -- SO THERE!

Quote:

>Why do companies put OPEN, or NEG, or MARKET for pay rate? I think it's
>because they are trying to get us as cheap as possible! There are so
>many openings on DICE for Cobol programmers you can't go through them,
>but most won't post the rates! Since there is a shortage of Cobol
>Programmers, why don't we stand up and demand that they post rates?



Sat, 23 Sep 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 RATES, why don't they post rates?

Quote:


> >Errr... Robert? What do you think DD, and everyone else in the newsgroups,
> >have been yelling about for the last 6+ months??
> They don't post rates because the name of the game is to get your
> skills as cheaply as possible, while peddling your skills for as much
> as possible, hopefully without letting you find out the split.
> Another reason is that when they do post rates, everyone laughs at
> them.  Perhaps the better response would just be to ignore such posts
> - if there really is a market demand for higher rates, and if we're
> really not kidding ourselves, then the market should win out ...

        You need to find ouot the truth, here's how.  Call the recruiter and
say (after the intoductory formalities):

You:            So what is the company offering?

Recruiter:      Well, market rate for the area.  What are your rates?

Y:              X/hr            (You are making an offer)

R:              Well, I don't think they would go for that (They turned it down)

Y:              What would they consider reasonable?  What's the market in this area
for those skills?

R:              Well they think a range of P/hr to Q/hr is reasonable.

        OK, you now know what the facts are.  Recruiters love to talk, they
will sometimes give away more than they think when they discuss things.
Just remember that the higher your hourly rate, the higher their cut.
This puts them on your side if they are appraoched correctly.  They are
also working for the client.  There are some toads & twits, in the
business, but the average recrutier is an OK person.  They have to be,
otherwise they don't get contractors calling them back to see if there
is any repeat business.

JR



Sat, 23 Sep 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 RATES, why don't they post rates?

Quote:

>Errr... Robert? What do you think DD, and everyone else in the newsgroups,
>have been yelling about for the last 6+ months??

They don't post rates because the name of the game is to get your
skills as cheaply as possible, while peddling your skills for as much
as possible, hopefully without letting you find out the split.
Another reason is that when they do post rates, everyone laughs at
them.  Perhaps the better response would just be to ignore such posts
- if there really is a market demand for higher rates, and if we're
really not kidding ourselves, then the market should win out ...


Sun, 24 Sep 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 RATES, why don't they post rates?

Quote:

>         OK, you now know what the facts are.  Recruiters love to talk, they
> will sometimes give away more than they think when they discuss things.
> Just remember that the higher your hourly rate, the higher their cut.
> This puts them on your side if they are appraoched correctly.  They are
> also working for the client.  There are some toads & twits, in the
> business, but the average recrutier is an OK person.  They have to be,
> otherwise they don't get contractors calling them back to see if there
> is any repeat business.

Now that depends.  If they are recruiting as part of a firm that hires
you then contracts you out, this might not be true.  The cheaper they
get you, the higher their cut.  The price to the client is negotiated
long before you get there.

If they are working as a placement agent with a perm position, they also
will try to balance the rate - good enough to attract people, low enough
to make the firm happy.

Beware of bait and switch. (Interview for one position, told you are
hired, and then told - oh it's a different position) I had that happen -
didn't take the job because of it - and glad I didn't.  I'm in a much
better place now.



Sun, 24 Sep 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 RATES, why don't they post rates?


Quote:

>Errr... Robert? What do you think DD, and everyone else in the newsgroups,
>have been yelling about for the last 6+ months??

I don't think I've been 'yelling', truly... when I mustered out of the Air
Force one of the things I promised myself was that unless it was an
emergency I would not raise my voice... SO I HAVEN'T BEEN YELLING, DO YOU
HEAR?  NO YELLING, *DO* *YOU* *HEAR*?

DD

Quote:

>--
>The Programmer Has Spoken -- SO THERE!


>>Why do companies put OPEN, or NEG, or MARKET for pay rate? I think it's
>>because they are trying to get us as cheap as possible! There are so
>>many openings on DICE for Cobol programmers you can't go through them,
>>but most won't post the rates! Since there is a shortage of Cobol
>>Programmers, why don't we stand up and demand that they post rates?



Sun, 24 Sep 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 RATES, why don't they post rates?

Quote:

> Now that depends.  If they are recruiting as part of a firm that hires
> you then contracts you out, this might not be true.  The cheaper they
> get you, the higher their cut.  The price to the client is negotiated
> long before you get there.

        True, but you can still bargain.  You can always say "well, I might do
it for Z/hr, but...", be creative.  But frequently they have a rigid
guideline from the client or their own management.  Bargaining is most
definitely allowed.  YOu are free to take or reject any offer, they have
the same freedom.  There are lots of books on effective negotiating
tactics.

Quote:
> If they are working as a placement agent with a perm position, they also
> will try to balance the rate - good enough to attract people, low enough
> to make the firm happy.

> Beware of bait and switch. (Interview for one position, told you are
> hired, and then told - oh it's a different position) I had that happen -
> didn't take the job because of it - and glad I didn't.  I'm in a much
> better place now.

        Absolutely.  Not only that, if you allow them to get away with that
sort of thing once, they will almost certainly try it again on you.  The
time to walk out is when the balance of the evidence shows that you are
in a bad place.  A critical time is when you sign the employment
agreememnt.  Needless to say it should be read carefully.  Some folks
will keep this as the very last step, and then the first day of work
begins with having to sign something that has a really restrictive
no-compete agreement.  Kind of like a car sales lizard who adds on extra
charges at the end.  Try to see a copy of the agreememnt before you get
serious, if they won't let you see it they may have something to hide.

JR

JR



Sun, 24 Sep 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 RATES, why don't they post rates?

DD? Can you repeat that a little louder, please... I think one or two people
in the other newsgroups didn't quite pick up on what you'd whispered...

--
The Programmer Has Spoken -- SO THERE!

Quote:



>>Errr... Robert? What do you think DD, and everyone else in the newsgroups,
>>have been yelling about for the last 6+ months??

>I don't think I've been 'yelling', truly... when I mustered out of the Air
>Force one of the things I promised myself was that unless it was an
>emergency I would not raise my voice... SO I HAVEN'T BEEN YELLING, DO YOU
>HEAR?  NO YELLING, *DO* *YOU* *HEAR*?

>DD

>>--
>>The Programmer Has Spoken -- SO THERE!


>>>Why do companies put OPEN, or NEG, or MARKET for pay rate? I think it's
>>>because they are trying to get us as cheap as possible! There are so
>>>many openings on DICE for Cobol programmers you can't go through them,
>>>but most won't post the rates! Since there is a shortage of Cobol
>>>Programmers, why don't we stand up and demand that they post rates?



Sun, 24 Sep 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 RATES, why don't they post rates?

Quote:

> Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 08:05:52 -0500

> Beware of bait and switch. (Interview for one position, told you are
> hired, and then told - oh it's a different position) I had that happen -
> didn't take the job because of it - and glad I didn't.  I'm in a much
> better place now.

I'm serving public notice now to all headhunters.  Try that with me, and not
only will I not take the job, I will post my experience on the internet in all
the job newsgroups I can find.  See if you get any takers after that.

Sue and be damned.  Truth is an absolute defense in the United States.  And I
will countersue and *own* your company.  And I'll run it honestly, for the
computer professionals.

Frank Ney  N4ZHG  WV/EMT-B  VA/EMT-A  LPWV  NRA(L)  GOA  CCRKBA  JPFO
Are you ready for Y2K?  Read "Time Bomb 2000" by Ed Yourdon
Abuses by the BATF  http://www.access.digex.net/~croaker/batfabus.html



Sun, 24 Sep 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 RATES, why don't they post rates?

What's all this noise, we can't hear milne in c.s.y2k, he was about to cite a
source of Aesop.  Oh, it's you DD. Keep it down, will you, you're drowning out
milne.

Quote:

> DD? Can you repeat that a little louder, please... I think one or two people
> in the other newsgroups didn't quite pick up on what you'd whispered...

> --
> The Programmer Has Spoken -- SO THERE!




> >>Errr... Robert? What do you think DD, and everyone else in the newsgroups,
> >>have been yelling about for the last 6+ months??

> >I don't think I've been 'yelling', truly... when I mustered out of the Air
> >Force one of the things I promised myself was that unless it was an
> >emergency I would not raise my voice... SO I HAVEN'T BEEN YELLING, DO YOU
> >HEAR?  NO YELLING, *DO* *YOU* *HEAR*?

> >DD

> >>--
> >>The Programmer Has Spoken -- SO THERE!


> >>>Why do companies put OPEN, or NEG, or MARKET for pay rate? I think it's
> >>>because they are trying to get us as cheap as possible! There are so
> >>>many openings on DICE for Cobol programmers you can't go through them,
> >>>but most won't post the rates! Since there is a shortage of Cobol
> >>>Programmers, why don't we stand up and demand that they post rates?



Mon, 25 Sep 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 RATES, why don't they post rates?


Quote:

>What's all this noise, we can't hear milne in c.s.y2k, he was about to cite a
>source of Aesop.  Oh, it's you DD. Keep it down, will you, you're drowning out
>milne.

Drowning out folks ain't my style; volume adds no veritas... although I am
sure that some might wish this were done.

DD

Quote:

>> DD? Can you repeat that a little louder, please... I think one or two people
>> in the other newsgroups didn't quite pick up on what you'd whispered...

>> --
>> The Programmer Has Spoken -- SO THERE!




>> >>Errr... Robert? What do you think DD, and everyone else in the newsgroups,
>> >>have been yelling about for the last 6+ months??

>> >I don't think I've been 'yelling', truly... when I mustered out of the Air
>> >Force one of the things I promised myself was that unless it was an
>> >emergency I would not raise my voice... SO I HAVEN'T BEEN YELLING, DO YOU
>> >HEAR?  NO YELLING, *DO* *YOU* *HEAR*?

>> >DD

>> >>--
>> >>The Programmer Has Spoken -- SO THERE!


>> >>>Why do companies put OPEN, or NEG, or MARKET for pay rate? I think it's
>> >>>because they are trying to get us as cheap as possible! There are so
>> >>>many openings on DICE for Cobol programmers you can't go through them,
>> >>>but most won't post the rates! Since there is a shortage of Cobol
>> >>>Programmers, why don't we stand up and demand that they post rates?



Mon, 25 Sep 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 RATES, why don't they post rates?

Well, one can really see that the newsgroup admins are on strike...   ;-)

Seems as if i have to ignore "The programmer" in the future...

Anton Gombk?t?



Mon, 25 Sep 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 RATES, why don't they post rates?

Hi folks,
if you all want to know something about rates contact JOBSERVE.COM
(U.K.) and order their free e-mail every day with contacts and contracts
(UK, Europe, US and rest of the world can be filtered).
If for some contracts no amount is mentioned, it's somethimes called
'good' (about DM 110), 'very good', 'exellent', 'extra-ordinary' (about
DM 170 - 200 !!!) or simply negotiable.
The latter could mean DM 3000 PER DAY which is paid for some specialists
in U.K. (source: Computerwoche Spezial: Problem 2000) ! (I'd wish I knew
which company that is !)
Dirk

  vcard.vcf
< 1K Download


Mon, 25 Sep 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 RATES, why don't they post rates?

Why is this the only computer developer's newsgroup I've seen so far where
people complain about non published rates?????

Just double my current salary and I'm happy.

Ciao, Tom.



Wed, 27 Sep 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 
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