Rates, rates, rates. 
Author Message
 Rates, rates, rates.

How much should a forty-year old (guy) with 39 hours of university
computer-science credits, but a Bachelor of General Studies (not
Computer Science) degree, and only low-skill labor experience, i.e.,
no paid, professional DP or managerial experience ask to start?

Should I be happy with anything that's at least 12.50/hr?

Should I ask for hourly wages or weekly (or monthly) salary?

What if I'm asked to sign a contract?

Yep, talkin' 'bout yo's truly.

Mark Twenhafel



Wed, 12 Jul 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Rates, rates, rates.

Quote:

>How much should a forty-year old (guy) with 39 hours of university
>computer-science credits, but a Bachelor of General Studies (not
>Computer Science) degree, and only low-skill labor experience, i.e.,
>no paid, professional DP or managerial experience ask to start?
>Should I be happy with anything that's at least 12.50/hr?
>Should I ask for hourly wages or weekly (or monthly) salary?
>What if I'm asked to sign a contract?
>Yep, talkin' 'bout yo's truly.

Forgot to specify, I'm partial to downtown Chicago, as that's where
my judo club meets.
Quote:
>Mark Twenhafel



Wed, 12 Jul 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Rates, rates, rates.

Quote:

> How much should a forty-year old (guy) with 39 hours of university
> computer-science credits, but a Bachelor of General Studies (not
> Computer Science) degree, and only low-skill labor experience, i.e.,
> no paid, professional DP or managerial experience ask to start?

> Should I be happy with anything that's at least 12.50/hr?

        Not in Chicago, if you have COBOL, especially IBM mainframe, try for
$30/hr or $45K/yr, this is 1998 not 1995.  After a few months look
around for better offers, they are likely to be there.  This newgroup is
a good place to pick up the gossip on rates.

Quote:

> Should I ask for hourly wages or weekly (or monthly) salary?

        Up to you.  Security versus money

Quote:
> What if I'm asked to sign a contract?

        Read it carefully.  My advice is don't sign anything > 6 months.
Quote:
> Yep, talkin' 'bout yo's truly.

> Mark Twenhafel



Wed, 12 Jul 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Rates, rates, rates.


Quote:
>How much should a forty-year old (guy) with 39 hours of university
>computer-science credits, but a Bachelor of General Studies (not
>Computer Science) degree, and only low-skill labor experience, i.e.,
>no paid, professional DP or managerial experience ask to start?

>Should I be happy with anything that's at least 12.50/hr?

>Should I ask for hourly wages or weekly (or monthly) salary?

>What if I'm asked to sign a contract?

>Yep, talkin' 'bout yo's truly.

>Mark Twenhafel

I think that would depend on what type of situation your are looking
to go into.  $12.50/hr isn't bad for an internship, but is pretty low
for a full time position.  With your limited experience, I would think
that an internship would be the way to go.

I, personally, would not be interested in a contract at this time.
Your value will go up dramatically as you finish a few more classes,
and I would hate to be locked in to anything.

Here in the midwest, the current starting rate for programmers with a
2-year degree is in the $33k-36k range (although it is rising
dramatically) if that helps at all.

Good luck,

Dave




Thu, 13 Jul 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Rates, rates, rates.

Quote:

> How much should a forty-year old (guy) with 39 hours of university
> computer-science credits, but a Bachelor of General Studies (not
> Computer Science) degree, and only low-skill labor experience, i.e.,
> no paid, professional DP or managerial experience ask to start?

> Should I be happy with anything that's at least 12.50/hr?

> Should I ask for hourly wages or weekly (or monthly) salary?

> What if I'm asked to sign a contract?

> Yep, talkin' 'bout yo's truly.

> Mark Twenhafel

You might consider asking for $100/hr and negotiating from there. You'll
probably end up with more than $12/hr using this approach.

Bill {*filter*}

PS: Downtown Chicago - do you get a Combat Pay allowance?



Thu, 13 Jul 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Rates, rates, rates.



Quote:


> Since you live in Chicago, I'd suggest you don't take less than
> $40/hour.  Startout asking for $80/hr.  You didn't say if you were
> trying to go thru a contracting company or get hired on as an
> employee.   Here in Dallas some companies still think they can find
> cobol contract programmers for $40/hour.  They're still looking after
> six months.

Is this for real????? Entry level programmers with no experience making
$40.00 an hour and more!!!!  I'm living in the wrong city.  At that rate
I'm going to send my kids to Chicago and have them get a job.


Thu, 13 Jul 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Rates, rates, rates.

uhhhhh, I dont think entry level programmers are making $40K/Yr, I have 5
years experience and "was" making $40/Yr before going into
consulting/Legalized Prostitution.
Forty dollars an hour for entry level?  I hope you all get that, cause
that means I need to increase my rate here in Dallas.........I have
specified $50+ hour and some recruiters won't even consider presenting you
to a client unless it's less.  You know, these pimps have to take such a
LARGE cut for God knows what! For wasting my time and faxing my
resume.....WOW thats a big cut for soooo little work...It's amazing!
Anyhow, now I'm off my soapbox, good luck to ya!

Quote:




> >>How much should a forty-year old (guy) with 39 hours of university
> >>computer-science credits, but a Bachelor of General Studies (not
> >>Computer Science) degree, and only low-skill labor experience, i.e.,
> >>no paid, professional DP or managerial experience ask to start?

> >>Should I be happy with anything that's at least 12.50/hr?

> >>Should I ask for hourly wages or weekly (or monthly) salary?

> >>What if I'm asked to sign a contract?

> >>Yep, talkin' 'bout yo's truly.

> >Forgot to specify, I'm partial to downtown Chicago, as that's where
> >my judo club meets.

> >>Mark Twenhafel

> Don't let the lack of a Comp Sys degree get in your way.  Use it to
> your advantage.  You weren't taught to think "in-the-box" and will be
> able to contribute potentially innovative solutions because you'll
> becoming from a different persective.   One guy I worked with had a
> B.S. in political science.  After graduation he worked on the back of
> a trash truck (non-union sanitation engr) until landing a programming
> job.   He was able to contribute because he could think and could be
> trained.

> Remember, the corporations are now hiring liberals majors and teaching
> them to program.

> Since you live in Chicago, I'd suggest you don't take less than
> $40/hour.  Startout asking for $80/hr.  You didn't say if you were
> trying to go thru a contracting company or get hired on as an
> employee.   Here in Dallas some companies still think they can find
> cobol contract programmers for $40/hour.  They're still looking after
> six months.

> Since you said you'd be happy with $12.5/h  and if you just want to
> get some experience take a entry level position with a corporation for
> around $40k.  It'll get you in the door, you'll gain experience, get
> some money an might enjoy it.



Wed, 19 Jul 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Rates, rates, rates.

FWIW; I was considering moving to the U.S. (I'm an impoverished Canadian right now)after
completing school last year--no degree though.  Every company or recruiter that I spoke
to was told the same thing......no less than 40K to start and a review in six months.  
All but one out of about twenty said no problem, 40k was alright to start.  

The one that said no couldn't go higher than 37K and this was direct hire, not an
agency.  I think if you look hard enough you will get close to what you want.  Start
high tho and let them beat u down.  Remember, you have skills that are in demand, and
will be more in demand in the coming months.  Good luck!!

cheers,
art



Wed, 19 Jul 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Rates, rates, rates.

On Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:56:10 -0600, David Morgan

Quote:

>uhhhhh, I dont think entry level programmers are making $40K/Yr, I have 5
>years experience and "was" making $40/Yr before going into
>consulting/Legalized Prostitution.

Here in Kansas City we are paying 40K/YR for Cobol Programmers
straight out of college.  If you are interested send me a resume.

Lucky



Thu, 20 Jul 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Rates, rates, rates.

Actually, with 12 years experience I was only making high 40's 2 years ago.
My current company pays mid to high 50's for senior and lead positions,  and
I am about to leave for a new job in the mid-60's.  With 14 years of COBOL,
I am hearing about $70-80K, but this is all in the consulting field.  The
real big money is for consulting in high cost areas like Manhatten.  I have
been hearing about mid 30K for entry-level.

The simple truth is that consulting companies will pay more since they can
drop you when things get slow.  Sometimes that high number assumes that you
will be paying your own benefits.  This is a great deal if you are single or
have a spouse who is already covered under another medical plan.  If you are
married with kids, the "cafeteria" style can quickly drop your take home pay
when you factor in health care and a 401K.  When I cashed out of my past 2
employers (total 12 years service), I had money from Keogh and profit
sharing which the company contributed.  For the Keogh and 401K, this was
about $2-3K a year from the companies with matching.  The profit sharing
averaged $7500 a year.

Its not just the salary that counts.  Its health care, education, 401K,
pension, profit-sharing.  It can also be a quality of work issue.  A true
body shop (pimp) will just hire you out at your current skill set.  No
implied loyalty, so they will have no incentive to help you develop new
skills.

BTW, a sad fact in the industry is that companies will hire a consultant at
$60-65 per hour, or over $120K a year instead of hiring a new employee.
This is the equivalent of renting a car for 5 years.  This means that
consulting companies have much more money to throw at new hires.  There will
be a lot of COBOL legacy work for the next 3 years, but unless your company
has good training, you might get stranded with skills that are no longer in
demand in 2002.

Quote:

>uhhhhh, I dont think entry level programmers are making $40K/Yr, I have 5
>years experience and "was" making $40/Yr before going into
>consulting/Legalized Prostitution.

*******



>> >>How much should a forty-year old (guy) with 39 hours of university
>> >>computer-science credits, but a Bachelor of General Studies (not

********


Thu, 20 Jul 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Rates, rates, rates.


Quote:

> Actually, with 12 years experience I was only making high 40's 2 years ago.
> My current company pays mid to high 50's for senior and lead positions,  and
> I am about to leave for a new job in the mid-60's.  With 14 years of COBOL,
> I am hearing about $70-80K, but this is all in the consulting field.  The
> real big money is for consulting in high cost areas like Manhatten.  I have
> been hearing about mid 30K for entry-level.

> The simple truth is that consulting companies will pay more since they can
> drop you when things get slow.  Sometimes that high number assumes that you
> will be paying your own benefits.  This is a great deal if you are single or
> have a spouse who is already covered under another medical plan.  If you are
> married with kids, the "cafeteria" style can quickly drop your take home pay
> when you factor in health care and a 401K.  When I cashed out of my past 2
> employers (total 12 years service), I had money from Keogh and profit
> sharing which the company contributed.  For the Keogh and 401K, this was
> about $2-3K a year from the companies with matching.  The profit sharing
> averaged $7500 a year.

> Its not just the salary that counts.  Its health care, education, 401K,
> pension, profit-sharing.  It can also be a quality of work issue.  A true
> body shop (pimp) will just hire you out at your current skill set.  No
> implied loyalty, so they will have no incentive to help you develop new
> skills.

> BTW, a sad fact in the industry is that companies will hire a consultant at
> $60-65 per hour, or over $120K a year instead of hiring a new employee.
> This is the equivalent of renting a car for 5 years.  This means that
> consulting companies have much more money to throw at new hires.  There will
> be a lot of COBOL legacy work for the next 3 years, but unless your company
> has good training, you might get stranded with skills that are no longer in
> demand in 2002.


> >uhhhhh, I dont think entry level programmers are making $40K/Yr, I have 5
> >years experience and "was" making $40/Yr before going into
> >consulting/Legalized Prostitution.

> *******



> >> >>How much should a forty-year old (guy) with 39 hours of university
> >> >>computer-science credits, but a Bachelor of General Studies (not
> ********

Richard,

You make some excellent points.  I think, though, that circumstances vary
rather widely in regards to making the decision about becoming a
consultant.  In my case, I am looking to make a huge amount of money as a
Y2K consultant for the next 3 (maybe 4) years, save like crazy (into as
many tax-deferred "instruments" as possible), and retire from the software
industry.  In terms of health care "funding", most consulting firms do
offer the consultant a health care plan (maybe a choice), with the
consultant's premium paid by the consulting firm.  The consultant is (most
of the time) responsible for paying the premiums for his/her dependents.
Even though that can be high, at least it is paid with pre-tax dollars.
In my case, if I do not like the plan (s) which are offered, I can
continue with the health insurance plan I have now (I work for a Health
Care Provider now).  What I would do is to negotiate for a slightly higher
rate, since I will not be using the consulting firm's health care plan.
Unless the consulting firm is offering some kind if flexible spending
account, this is a disadvantage, as I would need to make the premium
payment with after-tax dollars.  However, with the slightly higher rate,
this might balance out.

There is the distinct possibility that as companies (both consulting firms
and the client companies) become more and more desparate, more benefits
could be included for the consultant.  For example, I was sent on an
interview (via a consulting firm) last summer for a Y2K project.  Although
I did not get the position (not enough payroll applications experience),
the consulting firm was offering the following:

   1. $50 per hour.

   2. Health Insurance plan.

   3. After being on the job for 60 days, I was then entitled to 6 paid
      holidays (I probably would have tried to negotiate this to 30 days).

   4. After being on the job for 6 months, I was then entitled to 1 week of
      vacation.

I realize this more of an exception at this point, but this could occur as
things get tighter for both companies and consulting firms.



Thu, 20 Jul 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Rates, rates, rates.

Since this thread started a week or so ago I did a little research and
found that in some areas (Chicago and NY) of the US companions are paying
$40 - $50 per hour for any COBOL programmer (entry level or Sr.).  Many
areas are not paying less, and  some  companies will not hire entry level
people.
So before making  a judgement about what someone says what the going rates
are find out what city they are in.



Fri, 21 Jul 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Rates, rates, rates.

well, i have sent out my resume to about 7 businesses
all in the employment section and none have contacted me yet.

i simply dont see all these opportunities people are
talking about.

of course, i did state on my resume i expected $30 an hour
with monthly raises of 15%, which is not unreasonable
considering current demand is at 25% per month...

the other thing, which really annoyed me, was i contacted
one of these recruiters from the internet, they did not
answer, so i looked up their website
(by finding their ad in dejanews in other newsgroups,
as the one posted to my newsgroup did not have a website)
, and contacted them
then faxed my resume, and they still did not answer, so i
phoned them and their fax machine was down, in addition
to never getting my resume through email. they finally
called, and asked, and i gave them info, but they never
called back about an interview, ect.

i gave up after that. they deserve to go out of business.

is all management this stupid?

another war story (back before i went to college), was
going to a place to get hired, and it took 5 times before
they even gave me an interview.

every other place of the same type (hamburger flipping
as the case may be) gave me an interview time when i first
handed them the employment form...




Sat, 22 Jul 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Rates, rates, rates.

Most, not all, but most companies are indeed that stupid.  Most
headhunters are even worse, often not understanding the positions they
are trying to fill.  Remember that most professional placement services
are paid for by the hiring companies,  and their loyalty is to the
companies that pay them, not the job seeker.  Another gotcha is that
some placement firms I talked to admitted that they find potential
candidates by searching resumes for keywords provided by the hiring
companies.  If you had the skill in question but didn't use the exact
words they were looking for, you got passed over!

Check out the book "What Color is Your Parachute?" which is revised
annually.  It documents the failures of the employment system in the US,
and gives statistics about the effectiveness of various job seeking
approaches. (Hint: if newspaper ads are your primary source of info,
expect low pay and long waits for interviews).

Remember, that Dilbert is an optimist!!

Charles Hall

Quote:

> is all management this stupid?



Sun, 23 Jul 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Rates, rates, rates.

Could it be *you* are doing something to hurt your own chances?  Perhaps
you should *not* put your expected rate in your resume?  Where I come from
this is seen as indicative of a bad attitude - it says to every prospective
employer that you are only out for the money, and will have no job loyalty,
that job satisfaction means nothing to you, and so on.  It's guaranteed to
produce just the results you've seen - your expensively printed resumes
(you don't just print em up on your Epson dot matrix, do you?) end up in
somebody's round file headed for the landfill.  Do yourself a favor - get
someone to help you with your resume - there are plenty of books out there.
 Then, when you get an interview, talk about what *you can do for them*,
not *what they can do for you*.  Your posting smacks of a bad attitude as
well - based on what you say here, I wouldn't hire you either (is all
management this stupid?).  And where did you get the idea that 15% a month
raises are "not unreasonable"?  If that was true, I would have retired
about 15 years ago. Most places you'll be lucky to see 2 or 3 percent a
YEAR!

Imagine, 7 businesses out of the hundreds of thousands out there rejected
you!  The Nerve!  Lower your expectations a bit - you'll have better luck.



Quote:
> well, i have sent out my resume to about 7 businesses
> all in the employment section and none have contacted me yet.

> i simply dont see all these opportunities people are
> talking about.

> of course, i did state on my resume i expected $30 an hour
> with monthly raises of 15%, which is not unreasonable
> considering current demand is at 25% per month...

> the other thing, which really annoyed me, was i contacted
> one of these recruiters from the internet, they did not
> answer, so i looked up their website
> (by finding their ad in dejanews in other newsgroups,
> as the one posted to my newsgroup did not have a website)
> , and contacted them
> then faxed my resume, and they still did not answer, so i
> phoned them and their fax machine was down, in addition
> to never getting my resume through email. they finally
> called, and asked, and i gave them info, but they never
> called back about an interview, ect.

> i gave up after that. they deserve to go out of business.

> is all management this stupid?

> another war story (back before i went to college), was
> going to a place to get hired, and it took 5 times before
> they even gave me an interview.

> every other place of the same type (hamburger flipping
> as the case may be) gave me an interview time when i first
> handed them the employment form...





Sun, 23 Jul 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 
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