ISO COBOL Standard available from ANSI online store 
Author Message
 ISO COBOL Standard available from ANSI online store

The *APPROVED* ISO 2002 COBOL Standard is available from the ANSI online
store at:

http://www.*-*-*.com/ %2FIEC+1989%...

for the bargain <G !!!> price of $215.00 U.S. Dollars.

This will get you a PDF file - with NO permission to further distribute it
or even copy "significant" text into other documents without prior
permission.

If you are outside the US, you might (???) want to look at purchasing this
from ISO. See:

http://www.*-*-*.com/
ICS1=35&ICS2=60&ICS3=

This has the same copy/distribution restrictions - but only (???) costs
348.00 Swiss Francs.  You may find that your "own" national standards body
sells it (also) in "local currency".

NOTE WELL:
  In addition to the copyright statement within the text, make certain you
read AND UNDERSTAND the "EULA" (End User Licensing Agreement) when
"purchasing" either of these documents.

--
Bill Klein
 wmklein <at> ix.netcom.com



Wed, 25 May 2005 08:01:28 GMT  
 ISO COBOL Standard available from ANSI online store

What a bargain!

I believe the 1985 ANSI Standard came printed and bound for $50 or thereabouts.
Did the price go up because it took the committee so long to get the standard
completed?

Is there a reason that the committee doesn't want anyone other than a COBOL
compiler writer to read its work?  99.9% of the COBOL users are unlikely to ever
cough up this much money.

There seems to be no relationship between the price and the expense of producing
the document, considering theyears of meetings, etc. that went into the new
standard.  So why even try to recover the costs in the selling price?

In my opinion, it would be better to price it to cover distribution costs and
more widely disseminate the COBOL word.

Quote:

> The *APPROVED* ISO 2002 COBOL Standard is available from the ANSI online
> store at:

> http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/product.asp?sku=ISO%2FIEC+1989%...

> for the bargain <G !!!> price of $215.00 U.S. Dollars.

> This will get you a PDF file - with NO permission to further distribute it
> or even copy "significant" text into other documents without prior
> permission.

> If you are outside the US, you might (???) want to look at purchasing this
> from ISO. See:

> http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER...
> ICS1=35&ICS2=60&ICS3=

> This has the same copy/distribution restrictions - but only (???) costs
> 348.00 Swiss Francs.  You may find that your "own" national standards body
> sells it (also) in "local currency".

> NOTE WELL:
>   In addition to the copyright statement within the text, make certain you
> read AND UNDERSTAND the "EULA" (End User Licensing Agreement) when
> "purchasing" either of these documents.

> --
> Bill Klein
>  wmklein <at> ix.netcom.com



Sun, 29 May 2005 05:21:52 GMT  
 ISO COBOL Standard available from ANSI online store
I fully expected more messages in reply to Bill's bee stirring than
this...In any case let's clarify things.

The version of ANSI 85 you are talking about is just that - ANSI.

This is the ISO standard - RESOLD by ANSI.  Guess what - as far as I
can tell this is NOT the ANSI standard.  I fully expect (if people
will lay low for a bit) it to be cheaper.  Much cheaper.

However - even if it's not:  The price is not out of line for it's
stated purpose.  The market for this book is about 150-200 copies.
What?  Yes - as many as there are implementors plus a few spares.

The price is set by the respective standard bodies - complain directly
to ANSI or ISO, but the committees had NOTHING to do with the price
and the implication is erroneous.

There is no attempt at "recovery" here as far as I know.  The
committees are self supporting.  Members pay over $200.00 just in
meeting fees each time they attend, in addition to yearly membership
fees.  The cost of the standard has nothing to do with the committees.

I don't expect COBOL users to buy the standard.  I expect implementors
and educators to.

Quote:

> What a bargain!

> I believe the 1985 ANSI Standard came printed and bound for $50 or thereabouts.
> Did the price go up because it took the committee so long to get the standard
> completed?

> Is there a reason that the committee doesn't want anyone other than a COBOL
> compiler writer to read its work?  99.9% of the COBOL users are unlikely to ever
> cough up this much money.

> There seems to be no relationship between the price and the expense of producing
> the document, considering theyears of meetings, etc. that went into the new
> standard.  So why even try to recover the costs in the selling price?

> In my opinion, it would be better to price it to cover distribution costs and
> more widely disseminate the COBOL word.


> > The *APPROVED* ISO 2002 COBOL Standard is available from the ANSI online
> > store at:

> > http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/product.asp?sku=ISO%2FIEC+1989%...

> > for the bargain <G !!!> price of $215.00 U.S. Dollars.

> > This will get you a PDF file - with NO permission to further distribute it
> > or even copy "significant" text into other documents without prior
> > permission.

> > If you are outside the US, you might (???) want to look at purchasing this
> > from ISO. See:

> > http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER...
> > ICS1=35&ICS2=60&ICS3=

> > This has the same copy/distribution restrictions - but only (???) costs
> > 348.00 Swiss Francs.  You may find that your "own" national standards body
> > sells it (also) in "local currency".

> > NOTE WELL:
> >   In addition to the copyright statement within the text, make certain you
> > read AND UNDERSTAND the "EULA" (End User Licensing Agreement) when
> > "purchasing" either of these documents.

> > --
> > Bill Klein
> >  wmklein <at> ix.netcom.com

> --



Mon, 30 May 2005 00:24:18 GMT  
 ISO COBOL Standard available from ANSI online store

Thane,
I think (I'll have to go home and check) that my 1985 ANSI COBOL book covers both the ANSI & ISO
standards (they are the same for 1985, aren't they?).

Are you saying that there might be an ANSI COBOL standard separate (and different) from ISO COBOL?
That sounds like a recipe for killing COBOL!

I was a COBOL compiler developer when I bought the 1974 and 1985 COBOL standards from ANSI.  These
days, I'm just an applications support person who would like to have a copy of the standard for
reference.  I suspect you are right, that the market is limited.  I just think that the COBOL world
would be better off if the actual standard were known to more COBOL users.  Most of them only know
COBOL through the Language Reference manual of their chosen COBOL vendor's compiler.  In some cases,
I suspect that manuals don't do a great job of showing manufacturers' extensions as extensions,
leading users to use the extensions, and effectively tie themselves to the platform.  Being able to
compare the Standard to the implementation would help highlight the differences.

I wasn't trying to imply that the pricing was done to recover costs, just that $200+ for a PDF file
(paper and binding costs your responsibility) was a hell of a lot higher than the last standard.
And I was trying to be a little humorous with the statement that the price went up because it took
so long to get adopted.  (Like the old joke:  Do you know why postage costs are so high?  Because
the post office has to recover the cost of storing our mail for so long before delivering it.)

And, if 150 - 200 people are writing compilers to meet the new standard, why should they have to
spend $200+ to get the design document?  They obviously have to have the document, but is that a
reason to charge so much?  If there is no need to recover costs, why not make it more affordable?

The committee is part of ANSI / ISO, isn't it?  To an outsider, it looks to be all a package, even
if the committee has no influence on pricing decisions.

I didn't mean to make you upset!
Colin

Quote:

> I fully expected more messages in reply to Bill's bee stirring than
> this...In any case let's clarify things.

> The version of ANSI 85 you are talking about is just that - ANSI.

> This is the ISO standard - RESOLD by ANSI.  Guess what - as far as I
> can tell this is NOT the ANSI standard.  I fully expect (if people
> will lay low for a bit) it to be cheaper.  Much cheaper.

> However - even if it's not:  The price is not out of line for it's
> stated purpose.  The market for this book is about 150-200 copies.
> What?  Yes - as many as there are implementors plus a few spares.

> The price is set by the respective standard bodies - complain directly
> to ANSI or ISO, but the committees had NOTHING to do with the price
> and the implication is erroneous.

> There is no attempt at "recovery" here as far as I know.  The
> committees are self supporting.  Members pay over $200.00 just in
> meeting fees each time they attend, in addition to yearly membership
> fees.  The cost of the standard has nothing to do with the committees.

> I don't expect COBOL users to buy the standard.  I expect implementors
> and educators to.


> > What a bargain!

> > I believe the 1985 ANSI Standard came printed and bound for $50 or thereabouts.
> > Did the price go up because it took the committee so long to get the standard
> > completed?

> > Is there a reason that the committee doesn't want anyone other than a COBOL
> > compiler writer to read its work?  99.9% of the COBOL users are unlikely to ever
> > cough up this much money.

> > There seems to be no relationship between the price and the expense of producing
> > the document, considering theyears of meetings, etc. that went into the new
> > standard.  So why even try to recover the costs in the selling price?

> > In my opinion, it would be better to price it to cover distribution costs and
> > more widely disseminate the COBOL word.


> > > The *APPROVED* ISO 2002 COBOL Standard is available from the ANSI online
> > > store at:

> > > http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/product.asp?sku=ISO%2FIEC+1989%...

> > > for the bargain <G !!!> price of $215.00 U.S. Dollars.

> > > This will get you a PDF file - with NO permission to further distribute it
> > > or even copy "significant" text into other documents without prior
> > > permission.

> > > If you are outside the US, you might (???) want to look at purchasing this
> > > from ISO. See:

> > > http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER...
> > > ICS1=35&ICS2=60&ICS3=

> > > This has the same copy/distribution restrictions - but only (???) costs
> > > 348.00 Swiss Francs.  You may find that your "own" national standards body
> > > sells it (also) in "local currency".

> > > NOTE WELL:
> > >   In addition to the copyright statement within the text, make certain you
> > > read AND UNDERSTAND the "EULA" (End User Licensing Agreement) when
> > > "purchasing" either of these documents.

> > > --
> > > Bill Klein
> > >  wmklein <at> ix.netcom.com

> > --



Mon, 30 May 2005 07:42:13 GMT  
 ISO COBOL Standard available from ANSI online store
Sorry - I guess I didn't clarify this very well.

The '85 Standard was developed under an ANSI process and then adopted
by ISO.

This last standard was developed under an ISO process - and is in the
PROCESS (Not yet complete) of being adopted by ANSI.

It is my conjecture - that while this happens ANSI is allowing US
users to purchase the ISO version of this standard.  When I say
"Version" I mean the one published by ISO and not the one published by
ANSI.  There is no ANSI version yet.  When there IS the technical
content will be identical - just the publisher will differ.

Tne ANSI price is slightly less in actual $$$ than the ISO price, but
not a lot.

I expect that the ANSI "version", when published, will be less
expensive.

Quote:

> Thane,
> I think (I'll have to go home and check) that my 1985 ANSI COBOL book covers both the ANSI & ISO
> standards (they are the same for 1985, aren't they?).

> Are you saying that there might be an ANSI COBOL standard separate (and different) from ISO COBOL?
> That sounds like a recipe for killing COBOL!

> I was a COBOL compiler developer when I bought the 1974 and 1985 COBOL standards from ANSI.  These
> days, I'm just an applications support person who would like to have a copy of the standard for
> reference.  I suspect you are right, that the market is limited.  I just think that the COBOL world
> would be better off if the actual standard were known to more COBOL users.  Most of them only know
> COBOL through the Language Reference manual of their chosen COBOL vendor's compiler.  In some cases,
> I suspect that manuals don't do a great job of showing manufacturers' extensions as extensions,
> leading users to use the extensions, and effectively tie themselves to the platform.  Being able to
> compare the Standard to the implementation would help highlight the differences.

> I wasn't trying to imply that the pricing was done to recover costs, just that $200+ for a PDF file
> (paper and binding costs your responsibility) was a hell of a lot higher than the last standard.
> And I was trying to be a little humorous with the statement that the price went up because it took
> so long to get adopted.  (Like the old joke:  Do you know why postage costs are so high?  Because
> the post office has to recover the cost of storing our mail for so long before delivering it.)

> And, if 150 - 200 people are writing compilers to meet the new standard, why should they have to
> spend $200+ to get the design document?  They obviously have to have the document, but is that a
> reason to charge so much?  If there is no need to recover costs, why not make it more affordable?

> The committee is part of ANSI / ISO, isn't it?  To an outsider, it looks to be all a package, even
> if the committee has no influence on pricing decisions.

> I didn't mean to make you upset!
> Colin


> > I fully expected more messages in reply to Bill's bee stirring than
> > this...In any case let's clarify things.

> > The version of ANSI 85 you are talking about is just that - ANSI.

> > This is the ISO standard - RESOLD by ANSI.  Guess what - as far as I
> > can tell this is NOT the ANSI standard.  I fully expect (if people
> > will lay low for a bit) it to be cheaper.  Much cheaper.

> > However - even if it's not:  The price is not out of line for it's
> > stated purpose.  The market for this book is about 150-200 copies.
> > What?  Yes - as many as there are implementors plus a few spares.

> > The price is set by the respective standard bodies - complain directly
> > to ANSI or ISO, but the committees had NOTHING to do with the price
> > and the implication is erroneous.

> > There is no attempt at "recovery" here as far as I know.  The
> > committees are self supporting.  Members pay over $200.00 just in
> > meeting fees each time they attend, in addition to yearly membership
> > fees.  The cost of the standard has nothing to do with the committees.

> > I don't expect COBOL users to buy the standard.  I expect implementors
> > and educators to.


> > > What a bargain!

> > > I believe the 1985 ANSI Standard came printed and bound for $50 or thereabouts.
> > > Did the price go up because it took the committee so long to get the standard
> > > completed?

> > > Is there a reason that the committee doesn't want anyone other than a COBOL
> > > compiler writer to read its work?  99.9% of the COBOL users are unlikely to ever
> > > cough up this much money.

> > > There seems to be no relationship between the price and the expense of producing
> > > the document, considering theyears of meetings, etc. that went into the new
> > > standard.  So why even try to recover the costs in the selling price?

> > > In my opinion, it would be better to price it to cover distribution costs and
> > > more widely disseminate the COBOL word.


> > > > The *APPROVED* ISO 2002 COBOL Standard is available from the ANSI online
> > > > store at:

> > > > http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/product.asp?sku=ISO%2FIEC+1989%...

> > > > for the bargain <G !!!> price of $215.00 U.S. Dollars.

> > > > This will get you a PDF file - with NO permission to further distribute it
> > > > or even copy "significant" text into other documents without prior
> > > > permission.

> > > > If you are outside the US, you might (???) want to look at purchasing this
> > > > from ISO. See:

> > > > http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER...
> > > > ICS1=35&ICS2=60&ICS3=

> > > > This has the same copy/distribution restrictions - but only (???) costs
> > > > 348.00 Swiss Francs.  You may find that your "own" national standards body
> > > > sells it (also) in "local currency".

> > > > NOTE WELL:
> > > >   In addition to the copyright statement within the text, make certain you
> > > > read AND UNDERSTAND the "EULA" (End User Licensing Agreement) when
> > > > "purchasing" either of these documents.

> > > > --
> > > > Bill Klein
> > > >  wmklein <at> ix.netcom.com

> > > --

> --



Mon, 30 May 2005 13:30:44 GMT  
 ISO COBOL Standard available from ANSI online store
I am watching this thread.

Let the record show ... I said nothing <G>.

Pete.

Quote:

> Sorry - I guess I didn't clarify this very well.

> The '85 Standard was developed under an ANSI process and then adopted
> by ISO.

> This last standard was developed under an ISO process - and is in the
> PROCESS (Not yet complete) of being adopted by ANSI.

> It is my conjecture - that while this happens ANSI is allowing US
> users to purchase the ISO version of this standard.  When I say
> "Version" I mean the one published by ISO and not the one published by
> ANSI.  There is no ANSI version yet.  When there IS the technical
> content will be identical - just the publisher will differ.

> Tne ANSI price is slightly less in actual $$$ than the ISO price, but
> not a lot.

> I expect that the ANSI "version", when published, will be less
> expensive.


> > Thane,
> > I think (I'll have to go home and check) that my 1985 ANSI COBOL book covers both the ANSI & ISO
> > standards (they are the same for 1985, aren't they?).

> > Are you saying that there might be an ANSI COBOL standard separate (and different) from ISO COBOL?
> > That sounds like a recipe for killing COBOL!

> > I was a COBOL compiler developer when I bought the 1974 and 1985 COBOL standards from ANSI.  These
> > days, I'm just an applications support person who would like to have a copy of the standard for
> > reference.  I suspect you are right, that the market is limited.  I just think that the COBOL world
> > would be better off if the actual standard were known to more COBOL users.  Most of them only know
> > COBOL through the Language Reference manual of their chosen COBOL vendor's compiler.  In some cases,
> > I suspect that manuals don't do a great job of showing manufacturers' extensions as extensions,
> > leading users to use the extensions, and effectively tie themselves to the platform.  Being able to
> > compare the Standard to the implementation would help highlight the differences.

> > I wasn't trying to imply that the pricing was done to recover costs, just that $200+ for a PDF file
> > (paper and binding costs your responsibility) was a hell of a lot higher than the last standard.
> > And I was trying to be a little humorous with the statement that the price went up because it took
> > so long to get adopted.  (Like the old joke:  Do you know why postage costs are so high?  Because
> > the post office has to recover the cost of storing our mail for so long before delivering it.)

> > And, if 150 - 200 people are writing compilers to meet the new standard, why should they have to
> > spend $200+ to get the design document?  They obviously have to have the document, but is that a
> > reason to charge so much?  If there is no need to recover costs, why not make it more affordable?

> > The committee is part of ANSI / ISO, isn't it?  To an outsider, it looks to be all a package, even
> > if the committee has no influence on pricing decisions.

> > I didn't mean to make you upset!
> > Colin


> > > I fully expected more messages in reply to Bill's bee stirring than
> > > this...In any case let's clarify things.

> > > The version of ANSI 85 you are talking about is just that - ANSI.

> > > This is the ISO standard - RESOLD by ANSI.  Guess what - as far as I
> > > can tell this is NOT the ANSI standard.  I fully expect (if people
> > > will lay low for a bit) it to be cheaper.  Much cheaper.

> > > However - even if it's not:  The price is not out of line for it's
> > > stated purpose.  The market for this book is about 150-200 copies.
> > > What?  Yes - as many as there are implementors plus a few spares.

> > > The price is set by the respective standard bodies - complain directly
> > > to ANSI or ISO, but the committees had NOTHING to do with the price
> > > and the implication is erroneous.

> > > There is no attempt at "recovery" here as far as I know.  The
> > > committees are self supporting.  Members pay over $200.00 just in
> > > meeting fees each time they attend, in addition to yearly membership
> > > fees.  The cost of the standard has nothing to do with the committees.

> > > I don't expect COBOL users to buy the standard.  I expect implementors
> > > and educators to.


> > > > What a bargain!

> > > > I believe the 1985 ANSI Standard came printed and bound for $50 or thereabouts.
> > > > Did the price go up because it took the committee so long to get the standard
> > > > completed?

> > > > Is there a reason that the committee doesn't want anyone other than a COBOL
> > > > compiler writer to read its work?  99.9% of the COBOL users are unlikely to ever
> > > > cough up this much money.

> > > > There seems to be no relationship between the price and the expense of producing
> > > > the document, considering theyears of meetings, etc. that went into the new
> > > > standard.  So why even try to recover the costs in the selling price?

> > > > In my opinion, it would be better to price it to cover distribution costs and
> > > > more widely disseminate the COBOL word.


> > > > > The *APPROVED* ISO 2002 COBOL Standard is available from the ANSI online
> > > > > store at:

> > > > > http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/product.asp?sku=ISO%2FIEC+1989%...

> > > > > for the bargain <G !!!> price of $215.00 U.S. Dollars.

> > > > > This will get you a PDF file - with NO permission to further distribute it
> > > > > or even copy "significant" text into other documents without prior
> > > > > permission.

> > > > > If you are outside the US, you might (???) want to look at purchasing this
> > > > > from ISO. See:

> > > > > http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER...
> > > > > ICS1=35&ICS2=60&ICS3=

> > > > > This has the same copy/distribution restrictions - but only (???) costs
> > > > > 348.00 Swiss Francs.  You may find that your "own" national standards body
> > > > > sells it (also) in "local currency".

> > > > > NOTE WELL:
> > > > >   In addition to the copyright statement within the text, make certain you
> > > > > read AND UNDERSTAND the "EULA" (End User Licensing Agreement) when
> > > > > "purchasing" either of these documents.

> > > > > --
> > > > > Bill Klein
> > > > >  wmklein <at> ix.netcom.com

> > > > --

> > --



Mon, 30 May 2005 22:24:48 GMT  
 ISO COBOL Standard available from ANSI online store

...and you said it very well, too!

I'm curious why you'd even bother to watch this thread.  Even Bikk, the originator, hasn't dropped another line, and I'm
kind of bored by it myself.
Colin


Quote:
> I am watching this thread.

> Let the record show ... I said nothing <G>.

> Pete.


> > Sorry - I guess I didn't clarify this very well.

> > The '85 Standard was developed under an ANSI process and then adopted
> > by ISO.

> > This last standard was developed under an ISO process - and is in the
> > PROCESS (Not yet complete) of being adopted by ANSI.

> > It is my conjecture - that while this happens ANSI is allowing US
> > users to purchase the ISO version of this standard.  When I say
> > "Version" I mean the one published by ISO and not the one published by
> > ANSI.  There is no ANSI version yet.  When there IS the technical
> > content will be identical - just the publisher will differ.

> > Tne ANSI price is slightly less in actual $$$ than the ISO price, but
> > not a lot.

> > I expect that the ANSI "version", when published, will be less
> > expensive.


> > > Thane,
> > > I think (I'll have to go home and check) that my 1985 ANSI COBOL book covers both the ANSI & ISO
> > > standards (they are the same for 1985, aren't they?).

> > > Are you saying that there might be an ANSI COBOL standard separate (and different) from ISO COBOL?
> > > That sounds like a recipe for killing COBOL!

> > > I was a COBOL compiler developer when I bought the 1974 and 1985 COBOL standards from ANSI.  These
> > > days, I'm just an applications support person who would like to have a copy of the standard for
> > > reference.  I suspect you are right, that the market is limited.  I just think that the COBOL world
> > > would be better off if the actual standard were known to more COBOL users.  Most of them only know
> > > COBOL through the Language Reference manual of their chosen COBOL vendor's compiler.  In some cases,
> > > I suspect that manuals don't do a great job of showing manufacturers' extensions as extensions,
> > > leading users to use the extensions, and effectively tie themselves to the platform.  Being able to
> > > compare the Standard to the implementation would help highlight the differences.

> > > I wasn't trying to imply that the pricing was done to recover costs, just that $200+ for a PDF file
> > > (paper and binding costs your responsibility) was a hell of a lot higher than the last standard.
> > > And I was trying to be a little humorous with the statement that the price went up because it took
> > > so long to get adopted.  (Like the old joke:  Do you know why postage costs are so high?  Because
> > > the post office has to recover the cost of storing our mail for so long before delivering it.)

> > > And, if 150 - 200 people are writing compilers to meet the new standard, why should they have to
> > > spend $200+ to get the design document?  They obviously have to have the document, but is that a
> > > reason to charge so much?  If there is no need to recover costs, why not make it more affordable?

> > > The committee is part of ANSI / ISO, isn't it?  To an outsider, it looks to be all a package, even
> > > if the committee has no influence on pricing decisions.

> > > I didn't mean to make you upset!
> > > Colin


> > > > I fully expected more messages in reply to Bill's bee stirring than
> > > > this...In any case let's clarify things.

> > > > The version of ANSI 85 you are talking about is just that - ANSI.

> > > > This is the ISO standard - RESOLD by ANSI.  Guess what - as far as I
> > > > can tell this is NOT the ANSI standard.  I fully expect (if people
> > > > will lay low for a bit) it to be cheaper.  Much cheaper.

> > > > However - even if it's not:  The price is not out of line for it's
> > > > stated purpose.  The market for this book is about 150-200 copies.
> > > > What?  Yes - as many as there are implementors plus a few spares.

> > > > The price is set by the respective standard bodies - complain directly
> > > > to ANSI or ISO, but the committees had NOTHING to do with the price
> > > > and the implication is erroneous.

> > > > There is no attempt at "recovery" here as far as I know.  The
> > > > committees are self supporting.  Members pay over $200.00 just in
> > > > meeting fees each time they attend, in addition to yearly membership
> > > > fees.  The cost of the standard has nothing to do with the committees.

> > > > I don't expect COBOL users to buy the standard.  I expect implementors
> > > > and educators to.


> > > > > What a bargain!

> > > > > I believe the 1985 ANSI Standard came printed and bound for $50 or thereabouts.
> > > > > Did the price go up because it took the committee so long to get the standard
> > > > > completed?

> > > > > Is there a reason that the committee doesn't want anyone other than a COBOL
> > > > > compiler writer to read its work?  99.9% of the COBOL users are unlikely to ever
> > > > > cough up this much money.

> > > > > There seems to be no relationship between the price and the expense of producing
> > > > > the document, considering theyears of meetings, etc. that went into the new
> > > > > standard.  So why even try to recover the costs in the selling price?

> > > > > In my opinion, it would be better to price it to cover distribution costs and
> > > > > more widely disseminate the COBOL word.


> > > > > > The *APPROVED* ISO 2002 COBOL Standard is available from the ANSI online
> > > > > > store at:

> > > > > > http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/product.asp?sku=ISO%2FIEC+1989%...

> > > > > > for the bargain <G !!!> price of $215.00 U.S. Dollars.

> > > > > > This will get you a PDF file - with NO permission to further distribute it
> > > > > > or even copy "significant" text into other documents without prior
> > > > > > permission.

> > > > > > If you are outside the US, you might (???) want to look at purchasing this
> > > > > > from ISO. See:

> > > > > > http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER...
> > > > > > ICS1=35&ICS2=60&ICS3=

> > > > > > This has the same copy/distribution restrictions - but only (???) costs
> > > > > > 348.00 Swiss Francs.  You may find that your "own" national standards body
> > > > > > sells it (also) in "local currency".

> > > > > > NOTE WELL:
> > > > > >   In addition to the copyright statement within the text, make certain you
> > > > > > read AND UNDERSTAND the "EULA" (End User Licensing Agreement) when
> > > > > > "purchasing" either of these documents.

> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Bill Klein
> > > > > >  wmklein <at> ix.netcom.com

> > > > > --

> > > --



Wed, 01 Jun 2005 07:28:50 GMT  
 ISO COBOL Standard available from ANSI online store
It's easy to prove a negative.  Non one on those lists has stated an
opinion EITHER WAY, so to say no one has refuted you -- I might as
well say no one (Except you) has refuted me.  The whole argument is
baseless.


Quote:
> "Bikk" (aka Bill) has been out of town and didn't have newsgroup access.

> If anyone cares, I responded to Thane via the J4 list that I believe is
> mistaken and there nver will be any "separate" ANSI document.  As a part of
> the ANSI "I-project" process (where ANSI "subcontracts" to develop an ISO
> Standard), once this "I-Project" document (i.e. ISO 1989:2002 COBOL) was
> approved it (and NO other document) became/becomes the ANSI COBOL Standard.

> I could be mistaken on this, but no one in the J4 or WG4 lists has refuted
> this.

> --
> Bill Klein
>  wmklein <at> ix.netcom.com


> ...and you said it very well, too!
> I'm curious why you'd even bother to watch this thread.  Even Bikk, the
> originator, hasn't dropped another line, and I'm kind of bored by it myself.
> Colin

> I am watching this thread.
> Let the record show ... I said nothing <G>.
> Pete.


> > Sorry - I guess I didn't clarify this very well.

> > The '85 Standard was developed under an ANSI process and then adopted
> > by ISO.

> > This last standard was developed under an ISO process - and is in the
> > PROCESS (Not yet complete) of being adopted by ANSI.

> > It is my conjecture - that while this happens ANSI is allowing US
> > users to purchase the ISO version of this standard.  When I say
> > "Version" I mean the one published by ISO and not the one published by
> > ANSI.  There is no ANSI version yet.  When there IS the technical
> > content will be identical - just the publisher will differ.

> > Tne ANSI price is slightly less in actual $$$ than the ISO price, but
> > not a lot.

> > I expect that the ANSI "version", when published, will be less
> > expensive.



> > > Thane,
> > > I think (I'll have to go home and check) that my 1985 ANSI COBOL book
>  covers both the ANSI & ISO
> > > standards (they are the same for 1985, aren't they?).

> > > Are you saying that there might be an ANSI COBOL standard separate (and
>  different) from ISO COBOL?
> > > That sounds like a recipe for killing COBOL!

> > > I was a COBOL compiler developer when I bought the 1974 and 1985 COBOL
>  standards from ANSI.  These
> > > days, I'm just an applications support person who would like to have a
>  copy of the standard for
> > > reference.  I suspect you are right, that the market is limited.  I just
>  think that the COBOL world
> > > would be better off if the actual standard were known to more COBOL
>  users.  Most of them only know
> > > COBOL through the Language Reference manual of their chosen COBOL
>  vendor's compiler.  In some cases,
> > > I suspect that manuals don't do a great job of showing manufacturers'
>  extensions as extensions,
> > > leading users to use the extensions, and effectively tie themselves to
>  the platform.  Being able to
> > > compare the Standard to the implementation would help highlight the
>  differences.

> > > I wasn't trying to imply that the pricing was done to recover costs,
>  just that $200+ for a PDF file
> > > (paper and binding costs your responsibility) was a hell of a lot higher
>  than the last standard.
> > > And I was trying to be a little humorous with the statement that the
>  price went up because it took
> > > so long to get adopted.  (Like the old joke:  Do you know why postage
>  costs are so high?  Because
> > > the post office has to recover the cost of storing our mail for so long
>  before delivering it.)

> > > And, if 150 - 200 people are writing compilers to meet the new standard,
>  why should they have to
> > > spend $200+ to get the design document?  They obviously have to have the
>  document, but is that a
> > > reason to charge so much?  If there is no need to recover costs, why not
>  make it more affordable?

> > > The committee is part of ANSI / ISO, isn't it?  To an outsider, it looks
>  to be all a package, even
> > > if the committee has no influence on pricing decisions.

> > > I didn't mean to make you upset!
> > > Colin


> > > > I fully expected more messages in reply to Bill's bee stirring than
> > > > this...In any case let's clarify things.

> > > > The version of ANSI 85 you are talking about is just that - ANSI.

> > > > This is the ISO standard - RESOLD by ANSI.  Guess what - as far as I
> > > > can tell this is NOT the ANSI standard.  I fully expect (if people
> > > > will lay low for a bit) it to be cheaper.  Much cheaper.

> > > > However - even if it's not:  The price is not out of line for it's
> > > > stated purpose.  The market for this book is about 150-200 copies.
> > > > What?  Yes - as many as there are implementors plus a few spares.

> > > > The price is set by the respective standard bodies - complain directly
> > > > to ANSI or ISO, but the committees had NOTHING to do with the price
> > > > and the implication is erroneous.

> > > > There is no attempt at "recovery" here as far as I know.  The
> > > > committees are self supporting.  Members pay over $200.00 just in
> > > > meeting fees each time they attend, in addition to yearly membership
> > > > fees.  The cost of the standard has nothing to do with the committees.

> > > > I don't expect COBOL users to buy the standard.  I expect implementors
> > > > and educators to.



> > > > > What a bargain!

> > > > > I believe the 1985 ANSI Standard came printed and bound for $50 or
>  thereabouts.
> > > > > Did the price go up because it took the committee so long to get the
>  standard
> > > > > completed?

> > > > > Is there a reason that the committee doesn't want anyone other than
>  a COBOL
> > > > > compiler writer to read its work?  99.9% of the COBOL users are
>  unlikely to ever
> > > > > cough up this much money.

> > > > > There seems to be no relationship between the price and the expense
>  of producing
> > > > > the document, considering theyears of meetings, etc. that went into
>  the new
> > > > > standard.  So why even try to recover the costs in the selling
>  price?

> > > > > In my opinion, it would be better to price it to cover distribution
>  costs and
> > > > > more widely disseminate the COBOL word.


> > > > > > The *APPROVED* ISO 2002 COBOL Standard is available from the ANSI
>  online
> > > > > > store at:

>  http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/product.asp?sku=ISO%2FIEC+1989%...

> > > > > > for the bargain <G !!!> price of $215.00 U.S. Dollars.

> > > > > > This will get you a PDF file - with NO permission to further
>  distribute it
> > > > > > or even copy "significant" text into other documents without prior
> > > > > > permission.

> > > > > > If you are outside the US, you might (???) want to look at
>  purchasing this
> > > > > > from ISO. See:

>  http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER...
> > > > > > ICS1=35&ICS2=60&ICS3=

> > > > > > This has the same copy/distribution restrictions - but only (???)
>  costs
> > > > > > 348.00 Swiss Francs.  You may find that your "own" national
>  standards body
> > > > > > sells it (also) in "local currency".

> > > > > > NOTE WELL:
> > > > > >   In addition to the copyright statement within the text, make
>  certain you
> > > > > > read AND UNDERSTAND the "EULA" (End User Licensing Agreement) when
> > > > > > "purchasing" either of these documents.

> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Bill Klein
> > > > > >  wmklein <at> ix.netcom.com

> > > > > --

> > > --



Sat, 04 Jun 2005 04:29:35 GMT  
 
 [ 9 post ] 

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