Getting a job. 
Author Message
 Getting a job.

Is it Possible to get a job writing COBOL (or learning it) without a
degree.

I may have to quit school due to financial reasons, I have one
semester of COBOL, and I want to programm(am I nuts)?

Is it better to have a Degree in Computer Management or Computer
Science, what is the difference in job search.

Thanks



Thu, 20 May 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Getting a job.

Where I work, you must have experience or a 4 year degree.  Experienced
people without degrees must have at least 10 years and they still have
problems "competing" with degreed people for promotions.  People with
degrees come a dime a dozen and I personally predict that a Masters
degree will become required within the next five years for entry level
programming jobs.

I didn't say I like it, but this is what the market is like in Dallas.
Maybe others here have a different story.



Fri, 21 May 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Getting a job.


Quote:
>Is it Possible to get a job writing COBOL (or learning it) without a
>degree.

Someone with a "born to write COBOL" tattoo?

Quote:
>I may have to quit school due to financial reasons, I have one
>semester of COBOL, and I want to programm(am I nuts)?

>Is it better to have a Degree in Computer Management or Computer
>Science, what is the difference in job search.

>Thanks

Track the comp.software.year-2000 articles.  If you want to do COBOL
you'll probably be making big bucks for the next 3-5 years.   There will
be a programmer job recession after that for a few years.

Earn every cent you can over the next few years, save every cent you
can, plan to go back to school in 2002 or so with a couple hundred grand
or more.

Computer management is for people who like to be laid off every few
years.   CS grads stay employed.

Cory Hamasaki  Kiyo Design, Inc     http://www.kiyoinc.com
HHResearch Co. 11 Annapolis St.     OS/2 Webstore & Newsletter
REDWOOD        Annapolis, Md, 21401 (410) 280-1942



Sat, 22 May 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Getting a job.

I guess it depends where you hail from. In the UK we are happy with two A
levels.
Personally, I would never employ anyone with a computing or mathematics
degree to do programming, having had an unfortunate experience with the
world's worst programmer. I was his project leader and had the pleasure of
comparing notes, some years later, with his next project leader when he
left us. He had not improved.  



Sat, 22 May 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Getting a job.

Quote:

> Is it Possible to get a job writing COBOL (or learning it) without
a
> degree.

> I may have to quit school due to financial reasons, I have one
> semester of COBOL, and I want to programm(am I nuts)?

> Is it better to have a Degree in Computer Management or Computer
> Science, what is the difference in job search.

> Thanks

Programming, like other career paths, is just about impossible to get
into without experience and how can you get experience if you can't
get a job? Well, no-one said the hiring process had any intelligence. A
degree is usally required even though it means nothinh asbout your
ability. It just cuts the screened pool of applicants to a more easily
managed size. I've two degrees in History which have no application on
COBOL. As a former headhunter I can assure that there is a job out
there for you if 1) you got good grades, 2) know your stuff and 3) are
willing to knock on doors until you find the one that has a job for you.
That first job may not be great, but you will learn more there than
you ever did in school.
--


Sat, 22 May 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Getting a job.

Quote:

>Is it Possible to get a job writing COBOL (or learning it) without a
>degree.
>I may have to quit school due to financial reasons, I have one
>semester of COBOL, and I want to programm(am I nuts)?
>Is it better to have a Degree in Computer Management or Computer
>Science, what is the difference in job search.
>Thanks

Yes, It is possable to get a job without a degree, I have an associates in BusAdmin
and have been programming now for 12 years, I started as a junior COBOL coder
for next to nothing, and Doubled my salary 3 times in my first four years.  COBOL,
may not be the language of the future, or even the present, But it has paid my
mortgage for quite a while, So hasn't RPG/400. Also, I have been laid off only 1 time
in the last 12 years, (the company was sold to an out of town firm) however, I never
got the chance to collect, As I was working before the severence was gone (4 weeks)

The most important thing here is CAN YOU PROGRAM If you can, you will make it,
If you cannot, You will do nothing but frustrate the daylights out of those of us who can.

THNX Speedguns.



Sun, 23 May 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Getting a job.

Quote:

>I guess it depends where you hail from. In the UK we are happy with two A
>levels.
>Personally, I would never employ anyone with a computing or mathematics
>degree to do programming, having had an unfortunate experience with the
>world's worst programmer. I was his project leader and had the pleasure of
>comparing notes, some years later, with his next project leader when he
>left us. He had not improved.  

That's not my experience.  I've found that domain area specialists are
the worse programmers.  While they may understand their subject matter,
accounting, chemistry, whatever, they don't have and consequently cannot
apply simple programming and systems design concepts.

There are kinds of programming that can only be done by the computing or
mathematics educated.  This may be self education or formal university
education.  I guarentee that you'll never be able to build a modern
compiler, commercial sort, etc. without lots of education.

The point of a computing and mathematics education is to impart certain
fundamentals.  Of course, you can find turkeys in any subject area.

Cory Hamasaki  Kiyo Design, Inc     http://www.kiyoinc.com
HHResearch Co. 11 Annapolis St.     OS/2 Webstore & Newsletter
REDWOOD        Annapolis, Md, 21401 (410) 280-1942



Sun, 23 May 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Getting a job.

Quote:

> ...
> There are kinds of programming that can only be done by the computing or
> mathematics educated.  This may be self education or formal university
> education.  I guarentee that you'll never be able to build a modern
> compiler, commercial sort, etc. without lots of education.

This is not exactly true.  I've built significant parts of around 12
different compilers (and am doing a new one right now) and a couple of
commercial sorts and I had no computer education other than an evening
class or two way after I was out of school.  Computer education did
not exist when I was majoring in EE in the 50s.  Compilers and such
are nothing but big programs and any competent programmer can build
them - and good ones, too.  I've probably worked with around 100 or so
troops on compilers and many had lots of computer education and many
did not.  They all did quite well, with the edge going to the ones
with the education for the really complex stuff.

--
Don Nelson
COBOL Development, Tandem Computers, Inc.
Member, ANSI X3J4 and ISO/IEC JTC1/SC22 WG4 COBOL Committees

No clever quotes here



Sun, 23 May 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Getting a job.

Quote:


>Subject: Re: Getting a job.
>Date: 4 Dec 1996 11:47:11 GMT

>>I guess it depends where you hail from. In the UK we are happy with two A
>>levels.
>>Personally, I would never employ anyone with a computing or mathematics
>>degree to do programming, having had an unfortunate experience with the
>>world's worst programmer. I was his project leader and had the pleasure of
>>comparing notes, some years later, with his next project leader when he
>>left us. He had not improved.  

Having a degree is not a valid reason for not employing someone.  You may be
passing on very good people who have degrees just because you had a bad
expierence with somone who had a degree.


Sun, 23 May 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Getting a job.


Quote:

>> ...
>> There are kinds of programming that can only be done by the computing or
>> mathematics educated.  This may be self education or formal university
>> education.  I guarentee that you'll never be able to build a modern
>> compiler, commercial sort, etc. without lots of education.

>This is not exactly true.  I've built significant parts of around 12
>different compilers (and am doing a new one right now) and a couple of
>commercial sorts and I had no computer education other than an evening
>class or two way after I was out of school.  Computer education did
>not exist when I was majoring in EE in the 50s.  Compilers and such
>are nothing but big programs and any competent programmer can build
>them - and good ones, too.  I've probably worked with around 100 or so
>troops on compilers and many had lots of computer education and many
>did not.  They all did quite well, with the edge going to the ones
>with the education for the really complex stuff.

>--
>Don Nelson
>COBOL Development, Tandem Computers, Inc.
>Member, ANSI X3J4 and ISO/IEC JTC1/SC22 WG4 COBOL Committees

>No clever quotes here

Hi Don,

Normally I don't engage in one-on-one banter but you missed the sixth
and seventh words in the second line, "Self Education"

If you majored in EE in the '50s, you very likely had the fundamentals,
networks.  If you've done 12 compilers and some sorts, you are an expert
by your experience set.  Compilers may look like large programs to you
but over the last 30+ years of specialization, I bet concepts like LLR,
recursive descent, context sensitive, and so forth are part of the way
you think about software.

Cory Hamasaki  Kiyo Design, Inc     http://www.kiyoinc.com
HHResearch Co. 11 Annapolis St.     OS/2 Webstore & Newsletter
REDWOOD        Annapolis, Md, 21401 (410) 280-1942



Mon, 24 May 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Getting a job.



 >Is it Possible to get a job writing COBOL (or learning it) without a
 >degree.

 >I may have to quit school due to financial reasons, I have one
 >semester of COBOL, and I want to programm(am I nuts)?

 >Is it better to have a Degree in Computer Management or Computer
 >Science, what is the difference in job search.

 S(> Yes, It is possable to get a job without a degree, I have an
 S(> associates in BusAdmin
 S(> and have been programming now for 12 years, I started as a junior
 S(> COBOL coder for next to nothing, and Doubled my salary 3 times in my
 S(> first four years.  COBOL,
 S(> may not be the language of the future, or even the present, But it has
 S(> paid my
 S(> mortgage for quite a while, So hasn't RPG/400. Also, I have been laid
 S(> off only 1 time
 S(> in the last 12 years, (the company was sold to an out of town firm)
 S(> however, I never
 S(> got the chance to collect, As I was working before the severence was
 S(> gone (4 weeks)

 S(> The most important thing here is CAN YOU PROGRAM If you can, you will
 S(> make it,
 S(> If you cannot, You will do nothing but frustrate the daylights out of
 S(> those of us who can.

I am happy to say that I got my first programming job three months
ago, and I don't have a degree.  I did have an advantage that I
already had worked for the company for five years, so that helped.  I
only started learning COBOL in April of this year, as well.

        Frank

... There is no Truth. ...they make it up as they go along.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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 | necessarily reflect the views of the systems through which this message |

 +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+



Tue, 25 May 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Getting a job.


Quote:
>degree is usally required even though it means nothinh asbout your
>there for you if 1) you got good grades, 2) know your stuff and 3) are
>willing to knock on doors until you find the one that has a job for you.
>That first job may not be great, but you will learn more there than
>you ever did in school.
>--

They say that every job search looks like:

no; no; no; no; no; no; no; no; no; no; no; no; no; no; no; no;
no; no; no; no; no; no; no; no; no; no; no; no; no; no; no; no;
[...]
no; no; no; no; no; no; no; no; no; Yes!

--



Tue, 25 May 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Getting a job.


Quote:
>Is it Possible to get a job writing COBOL (or learning it) without a
>degree.

I'd go for Java instead - it's a level playing field, no-one has any
real experience with it yet, and it's easy to get Java work on the
basis of demonstrating one of your past products, not on who you last
worked for or any paper qualification.

I don't believe that COBOL is a good career choice for any new entrant
into the job market. I certainly don't believe there's a golden future
ahead for moderately experienced programmers doing Y2000 work. What
Y2000 work there is will mainly be done by experienced COBOL gurus, or
by porting the platform away from COBOL to SQL. For every site with a
Y2000 problem, there's also a bunch more throwing experienced COBOL
staff out of the door - can you compete against these people ?

--
Analyst Programmer:   A grunt coder who wouldn't
think of taking a job described as "grunt coder".



Wed, 26 May 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Getting a job.


Quote:

> >Is it Possible to get a job writing COBOL (or learning it) without a
> >degree.

> I'd go for Java instead - it's a level playing field, no-one has any
> real experience with it yet, and it's easy to get Java work on the
> basis of demonstrating one of your past products, not on who you last
> worked for or any paper qualification.

I suspect that the above question came from someone without any
language training let alone a 'past product'.  It will only be
'easy to get Java work' for those who have been around long
enough in the industry to be able to tie together the very
many skills that would be required to make sense of where Java
fits in.  If one can demonstrate where Java avoids the traps of
C++, can write raw HTML, and knows sufficiently about all
platforms to be able to make competant judgements to ensure
platform independance, then sure go for Java.

Quote:

> I don't believe that COBOL is a good career choice for any new entrant
> into the job market. I certainly don't believe there's a golden future
> ahead for moderately experienced programmers doing Y2000 work. What
> Y2000 work there is will mainly be done by experienced COBOL gurus, or
> by porting the platform away from COBOL to SQL. For every site with a
> Y2000 problem, there's also a bunch more throwing experienced COBOL
> staff out of the door - can you compete against these people ?

If you are going to do Java the do it quick.  Commercial programmers
use Cobol, always have, always will.  Scientific programmers use
fortran, always have, always will.  The others move from one to
the other as fashion dictates: Algol, Pascal, C, Modula2, C++,
Visual Basic, Delphi, Oberon, now Java.

This time next year it will be .....



Thu, 27 May 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 Getting a job.

Quote:

>Is it Possible to get a job writing COBOL (or learning it) without a
>degree.

Sure.  I do it all the time.  No formal COBOL training either.
Loads of time in the trenches, though.

Quote:
>Is it better to have a Degree in Computer Management or Computer
>Science, what is the difference in job search.

A CS degree will get you laughed out of MIS shops.
There's more to programming than twiddling bits.


Thu, 27 May 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 
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