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Glen Harm #1 / 34
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 "C" vrs ADA
Hello, sorry to interrupt your regularly scheduled news articles, but I didn't know where else to turn... I am a senior EE student whose current career goal is to work in an aerospace and/or military research field. To better my chances, I would like to supplement my fortran skills with another language. "C" has been recommended to me many times, and I was just about to buy a manual when I started hearing about ADA. I have heard that is is the DoD language, but what does that mean? Are all aerospace and military contractors required to use it? Is it suggested learningfor the major corporate engineers? Is it filtering down into the public engineering sectors? Is it too specialized to be applied elsewhere if I didn't get the desired job? Being that I am relatively unfamiliar with what is being used in these fields, I am turning to those of you in the know. If you have any thoughts on the pros and cons of either language, and/or would care to make a suggestion, I would greatly appreciate it. If you could, please recommend a book on the subject. Please send replies to: \!{cbmvax, pyrnj, bpa }\!vu-vlsi\!harman Thank you for you help! Glenvar Harman
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Sun, 17 Jan 1993 17:36:00 GMT |
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s.. #2 / 34
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 "C" vrs ADA
Quote:
>supplement my Fortran skills with another language. "C" has been recommended >to me many times, and I was just about to buy a manual when I started hearing >about ADA.
Learn them both. C is the assembly language, and Ada the High Order Language (HOL), of the next ten years in the DoD community. The DoD doesn't much like C from a lifecycle point of view, but has trouble denying its availability and current performance advantage over Ada (just like assembly with respect to FORTRAN 20+ years ago). Steve Frysinger --- Why would I waste my time expressing someone else's opinion?
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Sun, 17 Jan 1993 10:49:00 GMT |
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G.Gleas #3 / 34
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 "C" vrs ADA
Quote:
>Hello, sorry to interrupt your regularly scheduled news articles, but I >didn't know where else to turn... >I am a senior EE student whose current career goal is to work in an aerospace >and/or military research field. To better my chances, I would like to >supplement my Fortran skills with another language. "C" has been recommended >to me many times, and I was just about to buy a manual when I started hearing >about ADA.
This message does not really belong in the "space" groups, please limit the number of newsgroups you post to. This is a dumb question, if you are really interested in learning about EE and computers, etc., you should be interested in learning many languages. C is a good place to start, but any of the block structured languages will do, and C is probably one of the most widespread. I'm sure you will eventually need to learn ADA to do the work you are planning. I have not yet needed to use it, but I as I understand, it is pretty complex, and probably not a good choice if you don't already know other languages. I better idea is to choose a language that is available to you so you can learn by doing. Gerry Gleason
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Sun, 17 Jan 1993 11:17:00 GMT |
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John Unek #4 / 34
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 "C" vrs ADA
Quote:
>Hello, sorry to interrupt your regularly scheduled news articles, but I >didn't know where else to turn... >I am a senior EE student whose current career goal is to work in an aerospace >and/or military research field. To better my chances, I would like to >supplement my Fortran skills with another language. "C" has been recommended >to me many times, and I was just about to buy a manual when I started hearing >about ADA. >I have heard that is is the DoD language, but what does that mean? Are all >aerospace and military contractors required to use it? Is it suggested learningfor the major corporate engineers? Is it filtering down into the public >engineering sectors? Is it too specialized to be applied elsewhere if I didn't >get the desired job?
The ada language is far more than just a language. Ada includes standards for editors,compilers, and run-time symbolic de{*filter*}s. The C language evolved at AT&T in the process of developing the UNIX operating system. There were, beleive it or not, an A language and a B language that preceded it. Finally with the C language the original developer of the UNIX operating system (which was done on a PDP-7 microcomputer) felt that he had what he wanted. It was a moderately structured language , with a syntax that was similar to the UNIX c shell (or vice versa). As UNIX gained wide acceptance the C language became more popular. It has the advantage over FORTRAN of having structured variable types, but without the overly elaborate type checking done by a language like Pascal. It does share with Pascal the fact that each was developed by a single individual and thus represents that individuals prejudices in computer languages. C is now widely available outside the UNIX community and is a defacto standard with many companies. It is often the case in military/aerospace procurements that in order to generalize the request for computer hardware so as not to sole source a single vendor the government will ask for UNIX because it is the only operating system that can be had on a non-proprietary basis on a variety of computer hardware. UNIX of course brings C right along with it. Because UNIX does not handle real-time applications (such as interrupt handling) very well, and because there was no non- proprietary standard for real-time operating systems, the government(DOD) wanted to develop such a standard. Also, the DOD had a problem with each branch of the service having its own non-compatible languages for software development(COBOL,JOVIAL, CMS-II,FORTRAN,C,etc.). It has been decided that the DOD will develop a standard computer language that will include standards for editors, compilers, run-time de{*filter*}s, and even operating system functions for real-time processing. This standard was named ADA, (the name of the {*filter*} of Charles Babbage, who invented a punched card driven loom, considered to be the first computer, she was rumored to be the first person to ever write a program on punched cards- why her name is appropriate for a real-time language is a mystery). If you are interested in the military/aerospace field then ADA is definitely the language to learn. Be aware that it is a very complex language (Carnegie Mellon University is rumored to have required it for all sophomores- which resulted in flunking out half their sophomore class) and that to learn it properly you must find a DOD certified implementation which includes the editors, compilers, and de{*filter*}s as well. The DOD plans eventually to require ALL software to be done in ADA, but they realize that there is enormous inertia against it. Thousands of programmers must be retrained, and millions of lines of code converted. Don't expect to see ADA used very widely outside of the DOD environment. It will fail for the same reason that Pascal, Modula2, C, PL1, and others have failed - IBM is the {*filter*} force in the commercial market(~75 percent of all commercial installations) and COBOL dominates the IBM installed base (~90 percent of IBM applications are in COBOL). As long as computers remain basically Von Neuman processors, no language is going to offer any advantages in the real world to a language like COBOL. No business is going to go through the 3 to 5 years effort of retraining and converting of existing code just to satisfy the dogmatic prejudices of computer-science weenies. The DOD is perfectly capable, however, of making contractors like Boeing, Lockheed, TRW, Eaton,etc. jump through the ADA hoop just by refusing to accept bids which do not include ADA. Therefore if you want a career in military/aerospace, go for ADA. --------------------------------------------------------------- ihnp4!wlbr!etn-rad!jru - The opinions above were mine when I thought of them, by tomorrow they may belong to someone else.
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Sun, 17 Jan 1993 14:09:00 GMT |
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Dave Hayn #5 / 34
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 "C" vrs ADA
Quote: > I am a senior EE student whose current career goal is to work in an aerospace > and/or military research field. To better my chances, I would like to > supplement my Fortran skills with another language. "C" has been recommended > to me many times, and I was just about to buy a manual when I started hearing > about ADA. > Is it suggested learning for the major corporate engineers? Is it > filtering down into the public engineering sectors? Is it too specialized > to be applied elsewhere if I didn't get the desired job?
The biggest problems with Ada is the massive size of its compiler and the verbosity of it's language. I guess if you really like Pascal or Modula2, you might adjust, but if you're used to C, it might take some getting used to. Coming from a Fortran background, any modern language would be a step up, certainly. The compiler size is a concern when it comes to relying on that compiler to produce accurate code. It's certainly simpler to produce an accurate compiler for a small language like C or Pascal than for a very large on like Ada. As for where it's used, mainly DOD I'd guess. It certainly isn't used much, if any, in commercial or industrial sectors. C's the language for most of these, though your Fortran experience could come in handy in some heavy duty scientific fields (most machines have Fortran compilers that code better than existing C compilers, but since there's more work being done on C, I wouldn't be surprised if this is changing). Ada is certainly general purpose enough to be used elsewhere if you have access to a compiler for it, and it generally has alot of things built into it that you have to add to C language (like tasks, exceptions, etc.). Quote: > Being that I am relatively unfamiliar with what is being used in these fields, > I am turning to those of you in the know. If you have any thoughts on the pros > and cons of either language, and/or would care to make a suggestion, I would > greatly appreciate it. If you could, please recommend a book on the subject.
Any language you learn will help you when the next one comes along. If you're not pressed for time, the best thing to start off with would probably be a good book on general computer science; there's alot more to this than what you've seen in Fortran. A book I would recommend is "Fundamental Structures of Computer Science", by Wulf, Shaw, Hilfinger, and Flon; Addison-Wesley, 1981. I studied EE and CS in college; in school I had used mainly Pascal and LISP, and some C, SNOBOL, and APL. My first REAL summer job required that I learn PL/M-80; my first job after graduation required that I learn ISPS, Bliss, VAX Macro Assembler, and Fortran. If you know the things to expect in any language, you can pick up new, unexpected ones rather quickly. Quote: > Please send replies to: \!{cbmvax, pyrnj, bpa }\!vu-vlsi\!harman > Thank you for you help! > Glenvar Harman
-- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga Usenet: {ihnp4|caip|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh "The A2000 Guy" PLINK : D-DAVE H BIX : hazy "I'd rather die while I'm living, than live while I'm dead" -Jimmy Buffett
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Sun, 17 Jan 1993 14:43:00 GMT |
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Eugene Miya #6 / 34
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 "C" vrs ADA
Quote:
>> ... discussion about Ada and C for aeroSPACE ...
Quote: >Learn them both.
I hate these cross-referenced posting, but I recognize this as a vocational question not just a technical question. I also recognize that few people who are really using Ada have responded. I sent Glen mail, but I realize others will ignore it. First, vocation, I agree with Steve: learn both, or the ideas of both. What the Glens of the world have to realize is that companies don't hire you just because you know C or Ada, they hire you because you are supposed to be bright and flexible (gleem!). The world is trending toward multi-lingual programming environments: using many languages to solve problems [I'm even learning Icon now]. That is the point. No single language will solve all your problems, they are not designed that way. Second, policy. This is the real reason why I wanted to post this. In the case of the Space Station (note caps), the word very high is any software developer writing for the Station MUST use Ada. Recently, the AI groups in NASA had this dropped on them: no LISP (for Station). None what so ever. [I won't debate the intelligence of this decision.] Control is tight. This does not mean C won't fly on some self-contained packages, but it does set the tone (from pre-flight reviews) of the main Station software. This in turn affects other projects (excepting certain HAL/S based projects like Shuttle). If you want to work in aerospace (military or not), you can't ignore Ada. But learn other languages and be flexible. From the Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers: --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center
"You trust the `reply' command with all those different mailers out there?" "Send mail, avoid follow-ups. If enough, I'll summarize." {hplabs,hao,ihnp4,decwrl,allegra,tektronix,menlo70}!ames!aurora!eugene
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Sun, 17 Jan 1993 13:03:00 GMT |
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a.. #7 / 34
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 "C" vrs ADA
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> Learn them both. C is the assembly language, and Ada the High Order > Language (HOL), of the next ten years in the DoD community.
Ada is the Cobol of the 70's.
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Sun, 17 Jan 1993 16:45:00 GMT |
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Richard Hart #8 / 34
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 "C" vrs ADA
Quote: >Second, policy. This is the real reason why I wanted to post this. >In the case of the Space Station (note caps), the word very high is any >software developer writing for the Station MUST use Ada.
This raises a question -- are there any C to Ada translation programs. We (SDMS Inc. CCA is just the machine that we use for Vax BSD work) have a product that sells into people who sell into DoD. My opinion of Ada is not germane; at some point we are going to have to come to terms with Ada and we may have to deal with the prospect of converting to Ada for some markets. I expect that other software vendors are in the same boat. Does such a package exist? Are there rumors that somebody is doing it? Any information on the possibility would be of interest. -- In the fields of Hell where the grass grows high Are the graves of dreams allowed to die. Richard Harter, SMDS Inc.
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Sun, 17 Jan 1993 21:52:00 GMT |
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David Palm #9 / 34
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 "C" vrs ADA
Quote: >Second, policy. This is the real reason why I wanted to post this. >In the case of the Space Station (note caps), the word very high is any >software developer writing for the Station MUST use Ada.
Epigram: Ada is the 400-pound gorilla of programming languages. From the fortune cookie factory of David Palmer
...rutgers!cit-vax!tybalt.caltech.edu!palmer The opinions expressed are those of an 8000 year old Atlantuan priestess named Mrla, and not necessarily those of her channel.
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Sun, 17 Jan 1993 13:29:00 GMT |
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Stephen 2. Willia #10 / 34
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 "C" vrs ADA
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>Ada is the Cobol of the 70's.
Sounds about right. --Steve
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Sun, 17 Jan 1993 16:10:00 GMT |
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