EDA on Linux anyone? 
Author Message
 EDA on Linux anyone?

It seems that most EDA companies are pushing Windows NT as the
up-and-coming platform for EDA software.  The rationale is that Engineers
want to run Microsoft Office and don't want two computers on their desk (a
PC and an UNIX box).  Personally, I've never had the urge to use Microsoft
office.

Some of us will miss the rich set of tools that come with UNIX  for
processing data; such as sed, awk, perl, grep and others.

If EDA companies want to port to the PC platform (and certainly PCs now
perform like workstations did a few years ago at a much lower price)
perhaps they should consider porting to the Linux OS.  Those of us who use
linux appreciate the performance, and stability of Linux as well as the
unix  tools that come with it.  It certainly would be easier to port
applications currently running on Sun to Linux than it would be to port to
NT.

There currently are a large number of scientific and engineering
applications running on Linux.  Most of these are freeware, but popular
commercial apps like Mathmatica are now becoming available for Linux.
Netscape is available for Linux. There are office suites (similar to
Microsoft office) available for Linux with wordprocessor, spreadsheet,
etc.

How long before we start seeing some commercial EDA apps ported to Linux?
IMO there is a market here and the first company to see it will do well.

Any other satisfied  Linux users out there?

--

"Those who do not wish to recall have already had enough time - and will
have more - to destroy all documents, down to the very last one."
            Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (from the "Gulag Archipelago")



Mon, 22 Mar 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 EDA on Linux anyone?

  Phil> Some of us will miss the rich set of tools that come with UNIX
  Phil> for processing data; such as sed, awk, perl, grep and others.

I would miss how well emacs integrates these tools together.

  Phil> If EDA companies want to port to the PC platform (and
  Phil> certainly PCs now perform like workstations did a few years
  Phil> ago at a much lower price) perhaps they should consider
  Phil> porting to the Linux OS. Those of us who use linux appreciate
  Phil> the performance, and stability of Linux as well as the unix
  Phil> tools that come with it. It certainly would be easier to port
  Phil> applications currently running on Sun to Linux than it would
  Phil> be to port to NT.

I agree. Linux ports should be an order of magnitude easier to do
than NT ports.

  Phil> There currently are a large number of scientific and
  Phil> engineering applications running on Linux. ...
  Phil> How long before we start seeing some commercial EDA apps
  Phil> ported to Linux? IMO there is a market here and the first
  Phil> company to see it will do well.

I would also like to see it. Sometimes employees have both a SunIPX or
Xterm for design capture and a Pentium for documentation. Something
seems wrong with this picture. But whether the first company to
do so would do well is questionable. I think we have a chicken
and egg syndrome there.

-- Scott Bilik



Tue, 23 Mar 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 EDA on Linux anyone?



Quote:

>  Phil> Some of us will miss the rich set of tools that come with UNIX
>  Phil> for processing data; such as sed, awk, perl, grep and others.

>I would miss how well emacs integrates these tools together.

>I would also like to see it. Sometimes employees have both a SunIPX or
>Xterm for design capture and a Pentium for documentation. Something
>seems wrong with this picture. But whether the first company to
>do so would do well is questionable.

There are a couple of issues here.  First, I must clarify - the first
company to port to Linux won't clean up on the EDA market, but I think
they might find that they have found an active niche market. Second, It
would probably have to be the RIGHT tool ported to Linux - Model Tech's
Vsystem would be a good one.  It's popular and is considered to be a very
good VHDL simulator.  Their SUN version allows the user to create TCL
extensions, unfortunatly their NT version does not (apparently due to
problems with TCL running on NT).  If they were to port to Linux, they
could also port the ability to create TCL since Linux has no problem
running TCL.  This would be a case where the Linux port would be capable
of something the NT port isn't (at least not yet).

 >I think we have a chicken

Quote:
>and egg syndrome there.

I think it may be more of a "if you build it , they will come" situation.
I know of at least 5 engineers that use Linux at home and think very
highly of it.

Perhaps an EDA company could produce a Linux port which is not officially
supported (hence you know up front that you'll get no tech support, etc)
and offer it as such on a web site.  For companies developing for SUN
already this shouldn't be too hard.  They could monitor the downloads to
guage the popularity.

Phil

--

"Those who do not wish to recall have already had enough time - and will
have more - to destroy all documents, down to the very last one."
            Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (from the "Gulag Archipelago")



Tue, 23 Mar 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 EDA on Linux anyone?

Quote:
>   Phil> If EDA companies want to port to the PC platform (and
>   Phil> certainly PCs now perform like workstations did a few years
>   Phil> ago at a much lower price) perhaps they should consider
>   Phil> porting to the Linux OS. Those of us who use linux appreciate
>   Phil> the performance, and stability of Linux as well as the unix
>   Phil> tools that come with it. It certainly would be easier to port
>   Phil> applications currently running on Sun to Linux than it would
>   Phil> be to port to NT.

> I agree. Linux ports should be an order of magnitude easier to do
> than NT ports.

It's actually even easier than that.  You can purchase Solaris for your
Pentium-based PC.  Now you're talking a *really* inexpensive platform for
which your porting costs are truly negligible.  Assuming, of course, that
you CAE vendor didn't directly target the processor or do other Evil
things.

Everything we've cross compiled has worked just fine.



Tue, 23 Mar 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 EDA on Linux anyone?


|> How long before we start seeing some commercial EDA apps ported to Linux?
|> IMO there is a market here and the first company to see it will do well.

SpeedSim/3, a Verilog cycle-based simulator runs on Linux.

Richard



Tue, 23 Mar 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 EDA on Linux anyone?

Definately a lot more preferable then having to use Windozes

--
___________________________________________________________________________

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Wed, 24 Mar 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 EDA on Linux anyone?

Pragmatic C's Pver full IEEE P1364 standard Verilog simulator is available
on Linux.  See the ftp site ftp.crl.com in directory /ftp/users/pv/pverhelp
for data sheet and man pages.
--
Steve Meyer                             Phone: (415) 296-7017
Pragmatic C Software Corp.              Fax:   (415) 781-1116

San Francisco, CA 94104



Wed, 24 Mar 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 EDA on Linux anyone?



|>
|>   Phil> Some of us will miss the rich set of tools that come with UNIX
|>   Phil> for processing data; such as sed, awk, perl, grep and others.
|>
|> I would miss how well emacs integrates these tools together.

I've been running emacs (19.17) on Windows NT since May 1994.  I've also
had version 19.31 on NT since February of this year, but I haven't bothered
to switch over yet.

The other familiar UNIX utilities have been available for several years.

        Jim
--
James B. Reed          | Hey, this is software,
VeriBest Incorporated  | almost anything's possible.



Sun, 28 Mar 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 EDA on Linux anyone?

Quote:

> ...

> How long before we start seeing some commercial EDA apps ported to Linux?
> IMO there is a market here and the first company to see it will do well.

> Any other satisfied  Linux users out there?

I can only suggest that you *ask* EDA vendors for it. UNIX EDA tools
do indeed port quite easily to Linux but as long as no customers ask
for it it's hard to justify the port.

      _/_/_/_/     _/_/_/     Hansruedi Heeb
     _/     _/   _/          DS Diagonal Systems AG
    _/     _/     _/_/      +41 1 905 60 60

  _/_/_/_/     _/_/_/     http://www.diagonal.com/



Sun, 28 Mar 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 EDA on Linux anyone?



Quote:


>|>
>|>   Phil> Some of us will miss the rich set of tools that come with UNIX
>|>   Phil> for processing data; such as sed, awk, perl, grep and others.
>|>
>|> I would miss how well emacs integrates these tools together.

>I've been running emacs (19.17) on Windows NT since May 1994.  I've also
>had version 19.31 on NT since February of this year, but I haven't bothered
>to switch over yet.

>The other familiar UNIX utilities have been available for several years.

>    Jim
>--
>James B. Reed          | Hey, this is software,
>VeriBest Incorporated  | almost anything's possible.


--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--Celia Clause                    Celia's Verilog/EDA web page:



Sun, 28 Mar 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 EDA on Linux anyone?


Quote:





>>|>
>>|>   Phil> Some of us will miss the rich set of tools that come with UNIX
>>|>   Phil> for processing data; such as sed, awk, perl, grep and others.
>>|>
>>|> I would miss how well emacs integrates these tools together.

>>I've been running emacs (19.17) on Windows NT since May 1994.  I've also
>>had version 19.31 on NT since February of this year, but I haven't bothered
>>to switch over yet.

>>The other familiar UNIX utilities have been available for several years.

>>        Jim
>>--
>>James B. Reed          | Hey, this is software,
>>VeriBest Incorporated  | almost anything's possible.


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Subject: Re: EDA on Linux anyone?
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Quote:


>|>
>|>   Phil> Some of us will miss the rich set of tools that come with UNIX
>|>   Phil> for processing data; such as sed, awk, perl, grep and others.
>|>
>|> I would miss how well emacs integrates these tools together.

>I've been running emacs (19.17) on Windows NT since May 1994.  I've also
>had version 19.31 on NT since February of this year, but I haven't bothered
>to switch over yet.

>The other familiar UNIX utilities have been available for several years.

Let's try again...

Unfortunately, NT under emacs lack a lot of the functionality that
it has under unix (or linux). Under NT, emacs cannot read mail,
run most shell commands, read news, etc... These are the things that
allow emacs to go beyond a simple text editor to a tool that integrates
your environment.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--Celia Clause                    Celia's Verilog/EDA web page:



Sun, 28 Mar 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 EDA on Linux anyone?


: It seems that most EDA companies are pushing Windows NT as the
: up-and-coming platform for EDA software.  The rationale is that Engineers

...

: Any other satisfied  Linux users out there?

I'm running linux for over a year  here at ViDiSys.
its primary used as Network-server
  (NFS,samba,lpd,mail,news)
it runs real good.
it has replaced SCO unix, which was used before.

we are comparably small, 9 people,
  3 of them are hardware engineers.

the desk-tops are running windows95 and DOS.
NT didn't make its way, since the xilinx software doesn't run there.
the windows95 has been made somewhat usable with the aid of
  MKS unix like utilities
  NCD X-windows server, connected to the linux

here are no sun's

recently i tried to go VHDL/Verilog for our Xilinx designs, and evaluated
  Exemplar,Asyl+ and Synplicity

Asyl(Windows) was out of question after about 1 day of testing.
  1) minor changes of their examples made it go crazy
  2) there was no command-line version, so it would never have been
     possible to integrate it into our design flows.
     I'm using make,perl,sed,sh and several own written small
     utilities for typical xilinx and board designs
  3) funny: I asked them how they were able to test the software.
       by clicking several hundreds of test-designs ?
     answer:
       of course our software-engineers have a command-line version,
       but we don't sell it.

Synplicity:
  1) again, no command-line version
        just a run-button and a result
  2) a superfluous builtin editor
  3) VHDL and Verilog come together, without additional price
        thats good for me, currently I would prefer Verilog
        but VHDL is real important here in Europe.
  4) no linux
     windows
     sun for twice the price

Exemplar:
  1) comes with command-line and a bit of scripting
  2) i have to choose between Verilog and VHDL,
     both together would be twice the price
  3) no linux. I asked them, they say that few people are asking
       for linux, and NT would be OK
     sun for twice the price

so Synplicity and exemplar for windows were discussed.
twice the price for the same software on a sun
  was out of question for my boss.
heavily busy with an urgent design, i played a bit
with evaluation-versions of them. Then I went on Holliday. Coming
back, I was asked by my boss, since he was pressed
for a final decision by the software vendors:
   would you, personally you, spend the money ?
I said:
  Hmmmmmmmm
So nothing was bought.

------------------

is NT OK ?
  I don't believe
  I make heavy and everyday use of such things like
    find,grep,sed,perl,make,emacs,vi,man,info,locate,a2ps,
    gnuplot,bash,gcc,ghostscript,
    and the uncountable programs which are related and used by them.
  All the "ports" to windows,windows-NT which I have seen till now,
  either:
    1) frequently crash
    2) simply don't exist
    3) or are completely brain damaged by
         / and \ filename troubles
         uppercase and lowercase filename troubles
         drive letters
         carriage returns, ^Z trouble
         incapability to exec,fork, and pipe with other programs

------------------

things which I would like to see for linux:
- something like OrCAD SDT
- something like the the ancient palasm,
  for Parts like the Lattice, and AMD CPLDs
  just the translating tools,
  the Menu isn't necessary
- the xilinx tools
   xnfmerge,xnfprp,apr,xnfmap etc.., just the command-line versions
   xact for X11
   the Design-Flow-Manager and related things are superfluous
   the program-documentation in texinfo or in HTML
   short man pages for the programs
- some kind of translating utility
    Verilog -> xnf
    VHDL -> xnf
- something like SIS, nova, jedi stamina sred etc.
    better documented, and with xnf in and output

---------------------

things which I fear:
- unix software stays to be twice the price, compared to the NT version
- linux to be ignored
- software will be designed in a windows style, and then ported to
    unix instead of vice versa
    so you will for example get an CPLD entry software for
    unix which is such a standalone program like the current
    windows tools.
- more and more programs to be standalone graphical pushbutton programs.
  Incapable to communicate with anything, except with a user in front of
  the screen. With builtin editors. With self-invented make-replacements.
  with undocumented binary file-formats.



Tue, 30 Mar 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 EDA on Linux anyone?

Quote:

> is NT OK ?
>   I don't believe
>   I make heavy and everyday use of such things like
>     find,grep,sed,perl,make,emacs,vi,man,info,locate,a2ps,
>     gnuplot,bash,gcc,ghostscript,
>     and the uncountable programs which are related and used by them.

You de man.

What do these EDA companies think we spent the last N+1 years of our lives for,
learning how to automate and simplify the process of hardware design using all
these great tools that were handed down to us by the god of Unix.  Now they
want us to throw it all away, and grab a mouse, and live with about 1/100 of
the bandwidth we're used to?

The vendors all say "nobody asks for Linux," but I'd like to meet one engineer
of over five years experience who "asks for NT."  Or who would even want to
touch one, for that matter.

Quote:
> things which I fear:
> - unix software stays to be twice the price, compared to the NT version
> - linux to be ignored
> - software will be designed in a windows style, and then ported to
>     unix instead of vice versa
>     so you will for example get an CPLD entry software for
>     unix which is such a standalone program like the current
>     windows tools.
> - more and more programs to be standalone graphical pushbutton programs.
>   Incapable to communicate with anything, except with a user in front of
>   the screen. With builtin editors. With self-invented make-replacements.
>   with undocumented binary file-formats.

If it gets to where you can't take it any more and you decide to break out and
write something for Linux (or whatever) yourself, call me.  I'll drop what I'm
doing and join you.

Anybody else?

Dave



Sun, 11 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 EDA on Linux anyone?

    Larice> the desk-tops are running windows95 and DOS.  NT didn't
    Larice> make its way, since the xilinx software doesn't run there.
    Larice> the windows95 has been made somewhat usable with the aid
    Larice> of MKS unix like utilities NCD X-windows server, connected
    Larice> to the linux

You know, DOS versions of many things run under DOS emulation. I avoid
Windows [anything] altogether.

Linux IS a workable solution if you are willing to spend a little time
getting dosemu configured right.

--
Steve Williams


"The woods are lovely, dark and deep.  But I have promises to keep,
And lines to code before I sleep, And lines to code before I sleep."



Sun, 11 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 EDA on Linux anyone?


Quote:
> How about something like a Linux Free-CAD initiative?  Great world-class
> CAD/EDA software for Linux and all free.  It would be something like
> gcc is to C/C++ compilers: its free and it is considered to be one of
> the best compilers out there.  Admittedly its a big project, but if you
> get enough people working on it perhaps it could go somewhere.  Kind of
> like Linux itself.

> Certainly there are some parts of it in existence already:  The Alliance
> VHDL system, various other University projects.

Exactly --- University projects.  I can't see how something free like this
could be built any other way.  So, all we have to do is get some CS prof
somewhere interested.

The other option is to get Ray Noorda interested, but then you have to give up
the option of it being free.

Dave



Fri, 16 Apr 1999 03:00:00 GMT  
 
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