python-dev Summary for 2002-11-16 through 2002-11-30 
Author Message
 python-dev Summary for 2002-11-16 through 2002-11-30

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
python-dev Summary, 2002-11-16 through 2002-11-30
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This is a summary of traffic on the `python-dev mailing list`_ between
November 16, 2002 and November 30, 2002 (inclusive).  It is intended
to inform the wider python community of on-going developments on the
list that might interest the wider Python community.  To comment on

comp.lang.python in the usual way; give your posting a meaningful
subject line, and if it's about a PEP, include the PEP number (e.g.
Subject: PEP 201 - Lockstep iteration). All python-dev members are
interested in seeing ideas discussed by the community, so don't
hesitate to take a stance on something.  And if all of this really
interests you then get involved and join python-dev!

This is the sixth summary written by Brett Cannon (back in my groove).

All summaries are now archived at http://www.*-*-*.com/

Please note that this summary is written using reStructuredText_ which
can be found at http://www.*-*-*.com/ ;Any unfamiliar
punctuation is probably markup for reST_; you can safely ignore it
(although I suggest learning reST; its simple and is accepted for PEP
markup).  Also, because of the wonders of programs that like to
reformat, I cannot guarantee you will be able to run the text version
of this summary through Docutils_ as-is.  If you want to do that, get
an original copy of the text file.

.. _python-dev mailing list:
http://www.*-*-*.com/
.. _Docutils: http://www.*-*-*.com/
.. _reST:
.. _reStructuredText: http://www.*-*-*.com/

======================
Summary Announcements
======================
Nothing to report to speak of.  Uh, go to PyCon_ .  =)

.. _PyCon: http://www.*-*-*.com/

====================
`bsddb3 imported`__
====================
__ http://www.*-*-*.com/

Martin v. Loewis merged bsddb3 3.4.0 into CVS under the name
``bsddb``.  The old ``bsddb`` module is now no longer compiled by
default; if it  does get compiled, though, it ends up with the name
``bsddb185``.  Barry Warsaw also requested that the extensive testing
suite be incorporated and "run it only with a regrtest -u option".

Martin wasn't sure how Barry wanted them incorporated, though, since
there are multiple files to the test and most testing suites in the
stdlib are a single file.  Barry suggested that the testing files be
put in a directory with the package and that test_bsddb.py just call
the tests in that directory, much like how the email package does it.
They were integrated and some errors and warnings were found that are
being dealt with.

It was also agreed upon that development will be moved over to Python
so as to keep the module in Python sync'ed up properly and to keep
poor Martin from having to import the files into Python's CVS
constantly.

=======================
`Licensing question`__
=======================
__ http://www.*-*-*.com/

David Abrahams asked about  a licensing issue with Boost.Python_ (it
is a free library that "enables seamless interoperability between C++"
and Python) and it's modified Python.h_ file that it uses.  Originally
there was no license at the top of that file, but that does not work
for some corporations using Boost.  So David stuck his own license at
the top and asked if this is the right thing to do.

Guido asked him to provide the PSF_ license_ at the top of the file
and to mention what changes he made.  The copyright had been added to
the file for Python 2.2.2.

.. _Boost.Python: http://www.*-*-*.com/
.. _Python.h:
.. _PSF: http://www.*-*-*.com/
.. _license: http://www.*-*-*.com/

=========================
`Re: PyNumber_Check()`__
=========================
__ http://www.*-*-*.com/

M.A. Lemburg noticed that PyNumber_Check()'s semantics on what will
cause it to return had changed.  He  asked if it should check whether
one of "nb_int, nb_long, nb_float is available (in addition to the
tp_as_number slot)".  Guido responded that he would like to see it
deprecated.  We got a history lesson of how PyNumber_Check() was
written "when the presence or absence of the as_number "extension" to
the type object was thought to be useful".  Regardless, Guido said
that testing like this does  not prove something is a "number" and if
you wanted to test this way you could do it yourself.

In response, MAL said that perhaps PyNumber_Check() should be changed
so that it  returned true for something that is "usable as input to
float(), int() or long()".  Guido said that would be fine "as long as
we all agree that that's *exactly* what they check for, and as long as
we agree that there may be overlapping areas" for the various
Py*_Check() functions.  Guido later said testing for nb_int, nb_long,
and nb_float was fine.

===================================================
`Plea: can modulefinder.py move to the library?`__
===================================================
__ http://www.*-*-*.com/

Just van Rossum wanted to move Freeze's modulefinder.py_ into the
stdlib so that  it can be distributed  with binary releases.  In case
you don't know what modulefinder.py does, it attempts to find all pure
Python module dependencies for a pure Python module.  In other words,
it checks what the module imports and if it is a Python file, and if
it is, records that; it repeats this for all modules it finds,
creating a listing of modules needed for the module to run.

Guido said that the module needed some work before it could be
considered; it had ``print`` statements that were unneeded outside of
Freeze and it had no documentation.  Just agreed that the
documentation needed to be done.  As for the ``print`` statements,
though, they only come out when ``debug`` is set to true; by default
it  is  false.  Guido said that was fine and agreed with the removal
of the Windows-specific ``print`` statements.

Thomas Heller later said in `another thread`_ that `patch #643711`_
was opened primarily for him and Just to do work in but that everyone
was invited to help out.

.. _another thread: http://www.*-*-*.com/
.. _modulefinder.py:
http://www.*-*-*.com/
.. _patch #643711: http://www.*-*-*.com/

============================
`Dictionary Foolishness?`__
============================
__ http://www.*-*-*.com/

Raymond Hettinger suggested having "dictionaries support the
repetition" to allow one to create a dictionary with enough space as
specified by the repetition::

        >>> [0] * n   # allocate an n-length list
        >>> {} * n    # allocate an n-element dictionary

Aahz recalled that dictionaries are resized upon adding to a
dictionary and they could theoretically grow smaller.  That would seem
to possibly limit the usefulness of this idea.  Guido then voted -1
(practically a death wish for an idea unless people clamor for it)
saying that it relied too much on "arbitrary magic by side effect".
He said  if people *really* wanted this a method could be proposed.

=============================
`dict() enhancement idea?`__
=============================
__ http://www.*-*-*.com/

Just van Rossum suggested overloading the dictionary constructor so
that arguments that went to ``**kwargs`` would be used to create the
dictionary (this can be seen in the "`Python Cookbook`_" as recipe 1.2
or online at http://www.*-*-*.com/ ).
 This is desired because that means cleaner code for creating dicts::

        >>> dict(pigs='!fly', birds='fly')

Barry commented that he  liked it and had something similar in his
code for Mailman_ .  Thomas Heller voted +1 for it and also said that
he used the idiom.  Raymond Hettinger and myself also voted +1 for it.

.. _Python Cookbook:
.. _Mailman:

===========================================
`Yet another string formatting proposal`__
===========================================
__ http://www.*-*-*.com/

Oren Tirosh proposed something (read the title to figure out what).
He proposed the following syntax::

        >>> "\(a) + \(b) = \(a+b)\n"
        >>> r"\(a) + \(b) = \(a+b)\n".cook()

The advantages, according to Oren, are that it would not require
introducing the use of a new symbol like ``$``, nor a new string
prefix nor a new method.  The ``.cook()`` method would be used to
evaluate raw strings at a later point; it would draw arguments from
the local and global namespace.  The biggest drawback was
unfamiliarity for programmers.

Frederik Lundh pointed out that ``\(`` is "commonly used to escape
parentheses in regular expression strings" (Effbot wrote re_ , so he
should know).  Oren then said that curly braces could (and pretty
will) be used instead.

Michael Chermside likes this design idea, but  thinks the name for
``.cook()`` is not that great.  Oren was going for a name that tied
into "raw".  Michael suggested the name ``.sub()`` to build off of the
two PEPs already in existence covering string formatting (`PEP 215`_
and `PEP 292`_ ).

.. _re: http://www.*-*-*.com/
.. _PEP 215: http://www.*-*-*.com/
.. _PEP 292: http://www.*-*-*.com/

=====================
`Expect in python`__
=====================
__ http://www.*-*-*.com/

Eric Raymond proposed adding pexpect_ to the stdlib when it reaches
version 1 (it is currently at 0.94).  His thought was that having
functionality like Expect_ would be a boon for Python and use for
system administration.  Eric said  he had been using the module and
had no problems with it (Prabhu Ramachandran also said it had worked
for him).

David Ascher said that he would like to see a more abstract API to
allow it work for things other than character streams.  He also would
like to see something work better on Windows.  Eric said that he would
not want to hold up this for hopes of getting something better since
it already works well for what it does.

But it appears that the creator of pexpect is more than willing to
help maintain the module if it makes it into the stdlib.

Zach Weinberg said that he would be willing to put some work into
making the pty_ module more portable since pexpect does its thing
using pty.

.. _pexpect: http://www.*-*-*.com/
.. _Expect: http://www.*-*-*.com/
.. _pty: http://www.*-*-*.com/

===================================
`PEP 288:  Generator Attributes`__
===================================
__ http://www.*-*-*.com/

Raymond Hettinger has revised `PEP 288`_ with a new proposal on how to
pass things into a generator that has already started.  He has asked
for comments on the changes, so let him know what you think.

.. _PEP 288: http://www.*-*-*.com/

===============================================
`PyMem_MALLOC (was [Python-Dev] Snake farm)`__
===============================================
__ http://www.*-*-*.com/

Continuation of http://www.*-*-*.com/

There was a possible issue with ``PyMem_MALLOC()`` that Marc Recht had
discovered on FreeBSD.  It eventually was tracked down to
FreeBSD-CURRENT's implementation of ``malloc()``: ``malloc(0)`` always
return 0x800.  M.A. Lemburg suggested changing a test in the configure
script to try to catch when a platform returned an address for
``malloc(0)`` and treat it just like when it  would return ``NULL``
(``NULL`` can't be blindly returned since that would signal a memory
error; returning ``NULL`` in a C extension signals an error).  Marc
came back with news that C99 says that this is legitimate behavior for
``malloc()`` so this could possibly affect other platforms.

Marc suggested that ``PyMem_MALLOC()`` just be redefined to ``n ?
malloc(n) : NULL``.  Problem is that the ``NULL`` issue mentioned
above comes into play with this solution.  Tim Peters suggested either
``malloc(n || 1)`` or ``malloc(n ? n : 1)`` (the former being a Python
idiom that doesn't cut it in C).  he does not want to mess with the
configure scripts since they have "proven itself too brittle too many
times".  Tim wanted a way to prevent ever calling the function with 0,
but Guido couldn't see any way of doing that without an extra jump.

The committed solution is ``malloc((n) ? (n) : 1)``.  Easier to just
waste one byte then have to deal with the special casing of passing 0.
 The extra test was not really a worry since no measurable performance
reported by Tim.  Besides, Tim pointed out "this is ideal for a
conditional-move instruction, and more architectures are growing
that".

====================================================
`Half-baked proposal: * (and **?) in assignments`__
====================================================
__ http://www.*-*-*.com/

Gareth McCaughan suggested cutting down one of the separations between
parameter passing and assignment by allowing assignment to use
arbitrary argument lists::

        >>> a,b,*c = 1,2,3,4,5  # c == (3, 4, 5)
        >>> year, month, day, *dummy = time.localtime()

I argued that I didn't like the slightly cluttered look on the
left-hand side (LHS) of the assignment.  Martin v. Loewis and I
basically ended up saying we wanted to keep assignments clear and
concise and that this would not help to keep that.  Steve Holden
basically ended up agreeing.

Brian Quinlin, Patrick O'Brien, Nathan Clegg and Timothy Delany liked
the idea.  The biggest argument in support was that it would allow for
a more functional programming style (and that obviously can be good or
bad depending on your P.O.V.; I say bad  =)::

        >>> car,*cdr = [head, t1, t2, t3]  # car == head, cdr == (t1, t2, t3)

In case you don't have functional programming (especially Lisp/Scheme)
experience, the basic data structure in Lisp-like language is a list
and the most common way to manipulate those lists is with the
functions ``car`` and ``cdr``.  ``car`` returns the "head", or front,
of the list; ``cdr`` returns the "tail", or everything but the head,
of the list.  This allows for simple recursion since you just pass the
``cdr`` of a list on the recursive call after having dealt with the
head of the list.

There was also the suggestion of allowing the arbitrary assignment
variable to be anywhere in the list of assignment variables::

        >>> a,*b,c = 1,2,3,4,5  # a == 1, b == (2, 3, 4), c == 5

To prove that this was not really needed I wrote a function that took
in an iterable and the number of variables to assign to and then
returned the proper number iterations on the iterator and then the
iterator as the last thing returned.  Alex Martelli of course improved
upon it (and also continued to correct my slightly incorrect
statements)::

        def peel(iterable, arg_cnt=1):
                """Return ``arg_cnt`` values from iterator of ``iterable`` and then
the iterator itself."""
                iterator = iter(iterable)
                for num in xrange(arg_cnt):
                        yield iterator.next()
                yield iterator

The idea of a module for the stdlib containing iterator helper
functions was suggested by Alex.  One is in progress by Raymond
Hettinger.

Armin Rigo suggested having iterators become a type.  That was quickly
shot down, although having the suggested iterator helper module
contain a class that could be subclassed by iterators was received
with positive comments.

The thread ended very quickly after Guido said that he didn't think
"that there's a sufficient need to add new syntax".

===================================
`from tuples to immutable dicts`__
===================================
__ http://www.*-*-*.com/

Armin Rigo said that he would like to have an immutable type that
acted like a dictionary; basically like a struct from C.  Martin v.
Loewis agreed on the need, but opposed the idea of adding another
built-in type or syntax for such a type; that left something for the
stdlib.  Martin suggested something like::

        >>> struct_seq(name, doc, n_in_sequence, (fields))

where ``field`` is a bunch of (name, doc) tuples.  What would be
returned would be a "thing [that] would be similar to os.stat_result:
you [can] call it with the mandatory fields in sequence, and can call
it with the optional fields by keyword argument".

Armin didn't like it since it went against his initial proposal "which
was to have a lightweight and declaration-less way to build
structures".  He basically ended up suggesting something along the
lines of tuples with keyword arguments.  Martin didn't like it since
he didn't see a great use for it.

In the end Armin said to just drop the idea.

============================================
`urllib performance issue on FreeBSD 4.x`__
============================================
__ http://www.*-*-*.com/

Andrew MacIntyre brought a thread on python-list to python-dev's
attention about urllib performance compared to wget  (wget is used to
download web sites and files).  Apparently the used socket is
unbuffered instead of using the system default (which was shown to be
almost as fast as wget).  The question became why this was done.

The answer (thanks to Martin v. Loewis) was to prevent deadlock.
Apparently under HTTP 1.1 a server can keep a connection open while
waiting for the next command.  If the connection was buffered it would
block until it read enough to fill the buffer which may never come.

Frederik Lundh suggested that a subclass or option be available that
allowed the choosing of unbuffered or not.  Andrew said he would put
it on his todo list.

=====================================
`test failures on Debian unstable`__
=====================================
__ http://www.*-*-*.com/

Failures on the build of Debian's unstable version of Python led to a
discussion about how modules are skipped in the testing suite.
`Lib/test/regrtest.py`_ keeps a list of tests that are expected to be
skipped on various platforms.  Martin v. Loewis doesn't like it
because tests such as for the bz2 module are attempted regardless of
whether the bz2 library is even installed and yet it is expected to
succeed on Linux.  Martin summarized that "For many of the tests that
are somtimes skipped, knowing the system does not tell you whether the
test will should rightfully be skipped, on that system" since tests
are skipped often because a module was not there that needed to be
imported for the test.

Tim Peters, on the other hand, likes it.  Since he maintains the
Windows distribution from PythonLabs he likes it since it lets him
know when new things have been added to Python and might need to be
excluded from the Windows distro.  Neil (who pointed out the Debian
problems) was able to recognize that the tests that failed were meant
to pass under Linux.  Tim admitted he only cared about keeping the
mechanism for Windows; he could care less if it is removed for Linux.

Patrick O'Brien chimed in (with Aahz supporting) that the feature is
handy since you can easily find out libraries you are missing that you
could potentially install.

Guido stepped in and suggested setting up a mechanism that would allow
an external table in a file to be used when present instead of the
default list of tests to skip.  Don't think anyone has stepped up to
implement this.

.. _Lib/test/regrtest.py:
http://www.*-*-*.com/

===================================================================
`Currently baking idea for dict.sequpdate(iterable, value=True)`__
===================================================================
__ http://www.*-*-*.com/

Raymond Hettinger presented "a write-up for a proposed dictionary
update method".  It basically took an iterable and added keys based on
the values returned by the iterator with a value as passed in and used
 for all new keys.  The rationale was to have a fast way to be able to
do membership testing using dict's ``__contains__`` or removing
duplicates by creating a dict and then outputting the keys using the
aptly named ``.keys()``.

Previous objecctions to something like this were about the dict
constructor and the ``sets`` module.  The ones about the constructor
are dealt with by making this a method.  The latter was argued against
by saying that the ``sets`` module is slow.  Frederik Lundh brought up
that we really don't need multiple ways of doing the same thing.  Just
van Rossum agreed and said this killed the idea for him.  Guido chimed
in and said that the ``sets`` module was to help solidify the sets API
so that at some point it could be coded in C.

To address the speed complaint Guido suggested limiting the ``sets``
module initially to make it faster so that the type won't be held back
or unutilized because of its speed.  Tim Peters spoke up, though, and
said that the spambayes_ project used ``sets`` and he didn't have any
complaints.  But when major membership testing was needed a dict was
used.  And Tim pointed out that in order for any C sets code to be
fast it would have to directly use dict's C ``__contains__`` code.

What this method should return was brought up by Just.  Some thought
``None`` since ``.update()`` returns that.  Others said ``True``.
Guido said ``None`` since ``True`` should only be used  when something
is explicitly true.

Making it a class method was also suggested by Just as an easy way to
make it like a constructor.  Raymond agreed and changed his proprosal
as well as to have the method be named ``.fromseq()``.  But then
Walter Dorwald said ``.fromkeyseq()`` should be used  since there "is
another constructor that creates the dict from a sequence of items".
Guido voted +1 on that idea.

.. _spambayes: http://www.*-*-*.com/

======================================
`Re: release22-maint branch broken`__
======================================
__ http://www.*-*-*.com/

Tim Rice discovered that trying to build Python from a directory other
then where the source was did not work for the Python 2.2.* CVS.  It
was all eventually solved and fixed in the CVS branch.  I am
mentioning it here in case someone reading this had a similar issue.

================================
`Dictionary evaluation order`__
================================
__ http://www.*-*-*.com/

Gustavo Niemeyer asked about how to handle code like ``{f1():f2(),
f3(): f4()}`` and its execution order as pointed out by `bug #448679`_
.  As it stood it evaluated in the order of f2, f1, f4, f3.
Apparently Guido once upon a time considered this a bug.

But Guido mentioned that left-to-right evaluation is not always wanted
since ``a = {}; a[f1()] = f2()`` would want f2 to evaluate first.  He
asked what Jython did.

Finn Bock said that Jython went f1, f2, f3, f4.  In that case Guido
didn't see any reason to fix it.  But Tim Peters brought up the point
that the bug was more about the lack of specifics on this in the
documentation.  Gustavo said he would make the code fix along with
patches to the docs.

.. _bug #448679: http://www.*-*-*.com/

===========================
`int/long FutureWarning`__
===========================
__ http://www.*-*-*.com/

Mark Hammond asked how the upcoming change in Python 2.4 of hex/oct
constants will affect his C extension code and something like
``PyArg_ParseTuple()`` (this function takes arguments passed to
something and breaks it up into its individual parts since all
arguments are passed as tuples in C code).  In case you don't know
about the warnings, Python 2.3 warns you that code  like ``SOMETHING =
0x80000000`` could have a different meaning in Python 2.4; most likely
it will be treated as a positive long.  You can currently get rid of
the warnings by changing the constant into a long by tacking on a
``L`` to the end of the number.

Martin v. Loewis that if Mark appended the ``L`` to his constants that
it would not work for an ``i`` argument for ``PyArg_ParseTuple()``.
But Guido stepped up and said that there will be no issue since Python
will be changed so that Mark's code will accept the constant as a
positive long.  This caused Guido to wonder if the warning could be
changed to some other warning that is not normally printed out.

Guido then mentioned that he has "long promised a set of new format
codes for PyArg_ParseTuple() to specify taking the lower N bits (for N
in 8, 16, 32, 64) and throwing the rest away, without range checks".
"If
someone else can get to this first, that would be great".  So someone
be nice to Guido and do this for him.  =)

Either way no specific resolution has been reached.  As of right now
you can just  live with the warnings, supress the warnings, or change
your  constants to longs and hope you are not passing into a C
extension function that wants an int.

==========================================
`assigning to new-style-class.__name__`__
==========================================
__ http://www.*-*-*.com/

Michael Hudson has been working on `patch #635933`_ to allow for
assignment to ``__name__`` and ``__bases__`` for new-style classes
(this was all so that ``__name__`` would handle nested classes
properly to allow for proper pickling; that thread was called
`metaclass insanity`_ ).  He ran into a slight issue with dealing with
assigning to ``__name__``.  To get it working, Michael wanted to treat
heap and non-heap types differently.  For non-heap types Michael
wanted to "everything in tp_name up to the first dot is __module__,
the rest is __name__".  For non-heap types, he wanted to have
``__module__`` as "always __dict__['__module__'], __name__ is always
tp_name (or rather ((etype*)type)->name)".  And as for the issue of if
someone is crazy enough to delete the dict key of ``__module__``,
Michael said Python wouldn't crash but you probably would not like the
outcome of running code.  =)

Guido responded saying that Michael's proposal was acceptable.

But then there was an issue with ``.mro()`` after the bases had been
rearranged.  Michael worried about what to do when there was a
conflict down the intheritence tree.  He thought reverting back to the
way things were if there was an issue was best.  This would require
keeping around copies of the previous states until the changes
propogated all the way through.

Samuele Pedroni stepped in to try to answer this question (Samuele
rewrote the MRO code recently and is directly mentioned in `C3
implementation`_ ).  He came up with a possible case where there could
be a possible order disagreement if two of the bases of a class had
the same bases but one had the order swapped compared to the other (so
C has bases of (A, B) and D has bases of (A, B) as well and E had
bases (C, D); if C's bases became (B, A), E now has an order
disagreement).  He suggested that "the mros of the subclasses should
be computed lazily when needed (e.g. on the first - after the changes
- dispatch), although this may produce inconsistences and errors at
odd times".

Michael showed that his solution would catch the problem.  But he did
not like the idea of lazily evaluating; he wanted a more restrictive
solution since this is a new thing.  Michael stated that what he
wanted this for was to "to swap out one class for another -- making
instances of the old class instances of the new class, which was
possible and making subclasses of the old subclasses of the new, which
wasn't".  It also turned out neither  APL nor Dylan allow this kind of
thing so Michael is breaking new ground.

Samuele asked about when the classes had solid bases (i.e., only a
single superclass such as ``object``).  Michael said it  would handled
with no problem.

.. _C3 implementation:
http://www.*-*-*.com/
.. _patch #635933: http://www.*-*-*.com/
.. _metaclass insanity:
http://www.*-*-*.com/

=====================
`Classmethod Help`__
=====================
__ http://www.*-*-*.com/

Raymond Hettinger emailed the list because  Guido said that the few
people in the world who understand descriptors for C code are on the
list.  The main reason I am mentioning the thread here, though, is
because Armin Rigo gave the answer that "There are METH_CLASS and
METH_STATIC flags that you can set in the tp_methods table".

You also learn, thanks to Guido, that you should only use
``PyErr_BadInternalCall()`` when you know that a "bad argment must
have been created by a broken piece of C code".



Sat, 21 May 2005 13:00:03 GMT  
 
 [ 1 post ] 

 Relevant Pages 

1. python-dev Summary for 2002-11-16 through 2002-11-30

2. Yet another string formatting proposal (Was: python-dev Summary for 2002-11-16 through 2002-11-30)

3. python-dev Summary for 2003-05-16 through 2003-05-31

4. python-dev Summary for 2003-05-01 through 2003-05-15

5. python-dev Summary for 2003-04-01 through 2003-04-15 *and* 2003-04-16 through 2003-04-30

6. python-dev Summary for 2003-03-16 through 2003-03-31

7. python-dev Summary for 2003-03-01 through 2003-03-15

8. python-dev Summary for 2003-02-01 through 2003-02-15

9. python-dev Summary for 2003-01-16 through 2003-01-31

10. python-dev Summary for 2002-12-16 through 2002-12-31

11. python-dev Summary for 2002-12-01 through 2002-12-15

12. python-dev Summary, 2002-11-01 through 2002-11-15

 

 
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