comp.lang.pop FAQ 
Author Message
 comp.lang.pop FAQ

A first bash,

Ian.

HELP POPFAQ                                                   Ian Rogers

         CONTENTS - (Use <ENTER> g to access required sections)
               (You're using Ved to read this, right? :-)

 -- Is this the Post Office Protocol
 -- What *is* Pop then
 -- Can I get POP for my MS-DOS/Macintosh/Archimedes/...
 -- Is Glow like Pop11
 -- What's so good about an open stack
 -- What's so good about the Virtual Machine
 -- Acknowledgements

-- Is this the Post Office Protocol -----------------------------------

[ir]
No it's not, sorry. If that's what you're looking for then try
comp.protocols.pop or comp.protocols.internet or something (but I don't
actually know if they exist). Here's the charter for comp.lang.pop:

    The group serves for discussions on the programming language Pop11,
    and related environments, libraries, languages and the Plug User
    Group.

    Relevant topics, in this group, would cover all aspects of Pop11
    programming (from novice questions to expert efficiency issues) and
    the current BSI standards effort (Pop9x), and how it relates to
    other languages of this type (e.g. GLOW, Pepper).

    Also relevant would be conversations about the Poplog programming
    environment and its libraries. Eg.

    OOP in Pop11 Flavours, or objectclass etc. and how they relate to
        other OOP languages (C++, CLOS etc.)
    X windows hacking in Pop11
    Mixed language programming (eg. between Lisp/Pop11/Prolog/ML/C etc.)
        that is supported in Poplog but isn't relevant for discussion in
        other, pure language, groups
    Techniques for Artificial Intelligence programming (it is an AI
        language after all :)

    and so on.

[jl]
Yes, there's a name clash because both had a thing called
POP2.  It doesn't matter.  The protocol is on POP3, the
language is at Pop11, the language system is called POPLOG.

If you want to know more about the protocol, please read
    1225  Rose, M.T.  Post Office Protocol: Version 3.  1991 May;
    16 p. (Format: TXT=37340 bytes)

To get this document, send a one-line mail message to

    SEND rfc1225.txt

[as]
I have an incomplete draft introduction to Pop-11 which is currently
available via anonymous ftp.

    ftp ftp.cs.bham.ac.uk
    <login as "anonymous" with password your email address>
    cd pub/dist/papers
    get primer.Z
    quit

then
    uncompress primer

-- What *is* Pop then -------------------------------------------------

[sfk]
From the computer scientist's viewpoint, the most important qualities of
Pop are :-

    *   Garbage collection (automatic store management).
    *   The language is dynamically typed (cf. Lisp).
    *   Arguments and results are passed and returned via a stack which
        is open to the user to manipulate in any way.
    *   Procedures are first class datatypes, can be arbitarily nested,
        and provide full-lexical scoping.
[as]
    * Incremental compilation
    * lightweight processes
    * extendable syntax and explicit virtual machine

-- Can I get POP for my MS-DOS/Macintosh/Archimedes/... ---------------

[sfk]
I only know of one implementation for the PC and that's one called
GLOW.  I've only seen this system reviewed once in (wait for it ...)
the UK section of Byte magazine & no one I know has tried it out.
Alas, I've lost the relevant article.  So, please please will someone
post the contact details for the GLOW implementation?

Incidentally, GLOW is a fairly major deviant from the "mainstream" of
Pop languages.

[as]
The Brighton based company Cognitive Applications Ltd produced an
implementation of Pop-11 called Alphapop, which was, I think, very
favourably reviewed in Byte around May 1986 by{*filter*} Pountain.

I think the price has dropped substantially since those days, especially
for academics, though development froze some years ago, and it is now
only a small though very usable subset of Poplog Pop-11. For more
information contact:

    Cognitive Applications Ltd
    4 Sillwood Terrace
    Brighton
    BN1 2LR
    +44 (0) 273 821600

[rl]
AlphaPop (Pop11 for the Macintosh) - the prices:

  The standard AlphaPop package includes:
   Software
   Language Guide book
   Reference Manual book

  A single user license costs L400; academic price L300.  Additional
  licenses are quite cheap, and the 25% academic discount applies
  across these also.

  There is a 'student edition'.  It includes:
   Software
   Electronic version of reference manual

   (it is intended for people who are being taught Pop11, and
   therefore don't need the full tutorial documentation)

  This edition costs L120, and is available to bona-fide students.

  (All prices exclude VAT).

AlphaPop - the version (also, AlphaPop - the Caveat):

  The current version of AlphaPop is 1.2.3.  We have never charged
  anyone for an upgrade; and have always tried to contact all known
  customers when there was an upgrade; if anyone still has an older
  version, please send me the disk (Ben Rubinstein at Cognitive
  Applications, address below) and we will upgrade you.

  This version of AlphaPop has basic graphics facilities.  It does
  not support colour, QuickTime etc.  It runs under System 7, but
  does not run with 32-bit addressing switched on.  It runs under
  every operating system from 3.4 to 7.1, and on every known
  Macintosh (current and discontinued), most of which have been
  introduced since it shipped.  It runs happily on a 512K Mac;
  and can take advantage of more memory, up to 8MB.

  Now the caveat: anyone buying AlphaPop should be aware that we
  have no plans to upgrade it further. As noted above, there seems
  every reason to believe it will continue to be compatible for
  some time to come; but we can't guarantee it, nor should you
  expect upgrades to take advantage of new features such as QuickTime.
  We do not actively market AlphaPop, but are happy to sell it to
  anyone who enquires, provided this is understood.

AlphaPop - the contact address:

    (In the US + Canada, please contact:
        Computable Functions Inc.,
        35 South Orchard Drive
        Amherst MA 01002
        USA
        Tel: (413) 253-7637
    )

    Outside North America:
        Cognitive Applications Ltd
        4 Sillwood Terrace
        Brighton
        BN1 2LR

    Tel: 0273-821600
    Fax: 0273-722767

[kers]
So far as I know, there are no FTP'able versions of Pop at all. Pop also
tends not to run on MS-DOS machines, historically (I think) because of
their pig-poor addressing and underpowered CPUs; this has changed
recently. (Poplog does run on Sequent Symmetrys, which are high-end
*86's. I think.)

Some person somwhere was rumoured to be doing a Pop look-fairly-like
called Saffron, or Karl, or Salt. Something like that. But I don't think
they've done anything with it recently. Lazy frogs.

[sk]
So, Chris, when is Pepper going public?  (Karl??  Oh, Karl Popper.)

-- Is Glow like Pop11 -------------------------------------------------

[es]
The article on GLOW can be found in the UK May 1992 issue of Byte
magazine, page 84UK-8.

For those who haven't got access to this issue, I will give a very
brief summary, including quotes from the article:

    "Glow Comes Out of the Dark" (Dick Pountain)

Inspired by POP-11, Glow is a powerful list-processing language for
MS-DOS.

Glow, like its ancestor POP-11, is an interactive list-processing
language with a syntax that resembles Pascal or structured BASIC.
It supports loops as well as recursion, lists as well as strings, and
objects with multiple inheritance.

A major difference between it an POP-11 is that Glow employs strictly
lexical, rather than dynamic, scoping. This means that the visibility
of any object is governed by the program text (as in Pascal), rather
than the run-time environment.

MS-DOS Glow calls your own external text editor from inside Glow and
compiles directly from the editor, so long as it is not too large.

One difference is in definition of procedures: instead of POP's

    define ... enddefine

Glow uses

    def ... edef

Glow performs I/O via two streams called "source" and "sink" which you
redirect as necessary to real I/O devices, called IODEVS (e.g.
console,keyboard,stderr ...).

The first-release version of Glow that I have is stable, but has some
rough edges ...

Glow is the BASIC of AI languages.

Glow for Macintosh or MS-DOS with manual and user's guide, 69.95
pounds, from

    Andrew Arblaster
    NightOwl software
    Bollostraat 6
    B-3140 Keerbergen
    Belgium
    32-015-234871
    fax:32-015-234871

-- What's so good about an open stack ---------------------------------

[sfk]

The key difference between Lisp and Pop's semantics (putting the
important issue of syntax aside for one moment) is the open stack.
... Having the open stack at the heart of all programming
idioms gives the language family its distinctive character.

One idiom will illustrate my point nicely.  The task is (say) to add all
the numbers in a list.  One of the built-in routines is called "applist"
which takes a list and a procedure as arguments. It then applies the
procedure to each element of the list in turn. We can add all the
numbers in the list as follows:

    applist( 0, LIST, nonop + )    ;;; nonop disables infix-ness of +

Oh?  Did I say applist takes 2 arguments?  Well, I did but don't forget
that Pop uses an open stack, so there's no notion of argument checking.
All the arguments go on the stack and come off again.  This example
works because the iteration starts with 0 on the stack, then element 1
gets pushed, then the top two items get added and replaced by the single
result, and so on and so on.  At the end of the iteration, all that
remains on top of the stack is the answer.

Of course, the equivalent functional programming idiom (e.g. in Lisp)
would be to define a slightly different higher-order operator to
"applist" which might ...

read more »



Sun, 23 Jul 1995 20:06:57 GMT  
 comp.lang.pop FAQ
I've been monitoring this newsgroup for some weeks waiting for a FAQ
to show itself.  Unfortunately, the one just posted doesn't address
*my problem*.  In fact, it doesn't contain the word UNIX anywhere.

So can some helpful soul let me know what POP's are available/suitable
for unix on SUN's or DECstations in a university environment?  Is POP11
only a commercial product?  It doesn't sound like it.  Do I really need it
anyway?  It seems I do if I want to run Jocelyn Paine's EDEN system.
But perhaps I should just port it to CL:-)

Ta,
David
[Insert meme here]



Tue, 25 Jul 1995 09:14:01 GMT  
 comp.lang.pop FAQ

Quote:

> Date: 5 Feb 93 01:14:01 GMT
> Organization: Australian Artificial Intelligence Institute

> I've been monitoring this newsgroup for some weeks waiting for a FAQ
> to show itself.  Unfortunately, the one just posted doesn't address
> *my problem*.  In fact, it doesn't contain the word UNIX anywhere.

> So can some helpful soul let me know what POP's are available/suitable
> for unix on SUN's or DECstations in a university environment?  Is POP11
> only a commercial product?  It doesn't sound like it.  Do I really need it
> anyway?  It seems I do if I want to run Jocelyn Paine's EDEN system.
> But perhaps I should just port it to CL:-)

Although I am no longer part of the Poplog group, having left Sussex
University, and therefore have no right to redistribute Poplog
documentation, I am going to take the risk of posting the current
version of the online HELP POPLOG file, which gives partial answers.

(I think the file has not yet been updated for Poplog Version 14.2!)

What the file doesn't say is that although Poplog is a commercial
product, there are massive educational discounts, e.g. of the order
of 85% or more.

Aaron
-------------------------------------------------------------------
HELP POPLOG                                          A. Sloman, Nov 1989
                                             Updated R. Duncan, Dec 1991

Information about Poplog sales and distribution.

    CONTENTS - (Use <ENTER> g to access required sections)

 -- Versions of Poplog
 -- Poplog languages: Pop11, Lisp, Prolog, Standard ML
 -- Delivery mechanism and run-time licences
 -- Sales information
 -- Poplog and Pop Languages User Group (PLUG)
 -- POPFORUM: electronic mail forum

-- Versions of Poplog -------------------------------------------------

The following Poplog systems are currently available at Version 14.1:

    VAX VMS POPLOG
    VAX ULTRIX POPLOG
    SUN POPLOG for SUN-3, SUN-4 and SPARCstation
    SOLBOURNE POPLOG (same as SUN-4/SPARCstation POPLOG)
    HP POPLOG for Hewlett Packard HP 9000/300
    DECSTATION POPLOG for DECstation and DECserver
    MIPS POPLOG for MIPS RC2030
    SILICON GRAPHICS POPLOG for Silicon Graphics IRIS

SEQUENT POPLOG for Sequent Symmetry running Dynix is also available at
Version 14.0.

PC POPLOG for 80386 PCs running Unix System V is under development.

-- Poplog languages: Pop11, Lisp, Prolog, Standard ML -----------------

Pop11 is the main implementation language for Poplog, but all the
languages have their own incremental compilers, which compile to machine
code.

Poplog Prolog is essentially DEC-10 prolog, but versions of DEC-10
Prolog provided by different suppliers may differ in minor ways.

Poplog Common Lisp Version 1.4 provides a complete implementation of the
Common Lisp specification.

Poplog ML Version 2.0 provides a complete implementation of the 1990
Definition of Standard ML.

-- Delivery mechanism and run-time licences ---------------------------

Run-time licences for products based on Poplog saved images are
available. Please consult your supplier.

It is expected that a more sophisticated delivery mechanism will become
available, allowing products to be created that omit large portions of
Poplog that are not needed at run time.

This will also make available to users a version of the powerful
tools used for building and porting Poplog. These tools extend the
language Pop11, e.g. providing C-like facilities for pointer
manipulation.

-- Sales information --------------------------------------------------

British Educational customers may obtain Poplog from Sussex University.
Orders and enquiries to:

    Poplog Sales
    School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
    University of Sussex
    Brighton
    BN1 9QN
    ENGLAND     Phone 0273 606755  (Ask for the Poplog Manager)

    UK educational orders may be addressed to the above address.


Academic sales in USA and Canada are organised by:

    Prof Robin Popplestone
    Computable Functions Inc.,
    35 South Orchard Drive,
    Amherst, MA 01002, USA
    tel (413) 253-7637


ALL other sales are handled by:

    Integral Solutions Ltd
    Unit 3, Campbell Court
    Bramley,
    Basingstoke,
    Hampshire,
    RG26 5EG
    Phone   +44 (0)256 882028     Fax +44 (0)256 882182


-- Poplog and Pop Languages User Group (PLUG) -------------------------

The Poplog and Pop Languages Users Group (PLUG) is an organisation which
holds meetings and workshops,  distributes a newsletter and  distributes
public domain user  software. For  more information see  HELP *PLUG,  or
contact your Poplog supplier or the Poplog manager at Sussex  University
who will provide addresses of the organisers.

-- POPFORUM: electronic mail forum ------------------------------------

There is an electronic mail forum for Poplog users, managed by the  user
group (PLUG). Topics discussed  include: user problems, developments  of
the Pop11  language, programming  techniques, seminars  and  workshops,
available software goodies, etc.

For full details see HELP *POPFORUM.

--- C.all/help/poplog
--- Copyright University of Sussex 1991. All rights reserved. ----------
--
Aaron Sloman,
School of Computer Science, The University of Birmingham, B15 2TT, England

Phone: +44-(0)21-414-3711       Fax:   +44-(0)21-414-4281



Fri, 28 Jul 1995 06:17:40 GMT  
 comp.lang.pop FAQ
Well, thanks to Aaron Sloman, I now have a better idea of what POP is.
The fact that its only available commercially does put the EDEN
system in a strange light.  To quote from the announcement:

Quote:
>    ANNOUNCING THE EDEN/POPBEAST AI COMPETITION AND TEACHING KIT

>Do you want to take part in Oxford University's international AI-in-Eden
>competition? Do you have a Poplog system?(*) Are you looking for AI
>teaching materials? If so, read on!

>We have developed Eden as a Poplog-based AI microworld(**) in which
>members can experiment with learning and planning, and we are now making
>it available as part of an international AI competition. Unlike many
>leading brands of microworld, Eden puts the emphasis on learning, whilst
>still providing a rewarding environment where the less creative
>rule-based AI need not feel out of place.

>(*) Or the willingness to translate some Pop-11 simulation code to your
>favourite programming language.

Well, translating to something else is probably straightforward if you
know Pop-11, but it seems that apart from the primer (described as
"an incomplete draft introduction") the only way to find out about it is
to purchase the system.

Quote:
> (**) Hopefully to be accepted as the official ANSI standard microworld.

Pull the other one, Jocelyn.  I think the ideas behind eden are excellent,
but the decision to base it on a commercial product is ludicrous.  Pop-11
may be a wonderful language, and Poplog a fabulous implementation of it,
but it's not freely available.  If you are serious about wanting people
to use EDEN, you should release a Prolog or common lisp port.  If porting
is a non-trivial exercise, then you can't expect those unfamiliar with
pop to do it.  If its trivial, then why hasn't it been done?  I'd hate to
think that one aim of the competition was to sell more Poplog systems.

David



Sat, 29 Jul 1995 09:13:22 GMT  
 comp.lang.pop FAQ

Quote:

> Date: 9 Feb 93 01:13:22 GMT
> Organization: Australian Artificial Intelligence Institute

> Well, thanks to Aaron Sloman, I now have a better idea of what POP is.
> The fact that its only available commercially does put the EDEN
> system in a strange light

In defence of Jocelyn Paine I think I should point out that there
would be nothing to stop a Mac or PC fan doing something similar
with software that ran only on Macs or PCs. Macs and PCs are
commercial products and you would not be able to use the software or
join the competition without paying for the Mac or PC. If Jocelyn
has produced something interesting, and wants to make it widely
available, he can't be criticised if it works only on a platform
that costs money. (Actually very little money for UK academics, but
I agree that it would be nice if the same special rate were
available world wide. As the former "director" of the Poplog
development project I can say that we agonized over wanting to make
it available freely to academics and wanting to be able to pay the
excellent and dedicated programmers whose salaries depended on
Poplog sales. For a while the situation was different because there
was research council support for the development, as is apparently
the case for some of the other free software systems widely
available. But then the funding dried up in the late 80s, and all
attempts to get it re-started have so far failed.).

Quote:
> To quote from the announcement:

> >    ANNOUNCING THE EDEN/POPBEAST AI COMPETITION AND TEACHING KIT

> >Do you want to take part in Oxford University's international AI-in-Eden
> >competition? Do you have a Poplog system?(*) Are you looking for AI
> >teaching materials? If so, read on!

> >We have developed Eden as a Poplog-based AI microworld(**) in which
> >members can experiment with learning and planning, and we are now making
> >it available as part of an international AI competition. Unlike many
> >leading brands of microworld, Eden puts the emphasis on learning, whilst
> >still providing a rewarding environment where the less creative
> >rule-based AI need not feel out of place.

> >(*) Or the willingness to translate some Pop-11 simulation code to your
> >favourite programming language.

> Well, translating to something else is probably straightforward if you
> know Pop-11, but it seems that apart from the primer (described as
> "an incomplete draft introduction") the only way to find out about it is
> to purchase the system.

> > (**) Hopefully to be accepted as the official ANSI standard microworld.

> Pull the other one, Jocelyn.  I think the ideas behind eden are excellent,
> but the decision to base it on a commercial product is ludicrous.  Pop-11
> may be a wonderful language, and Poplog a fabulous implementation of it,
> but it's not freely available.  If you are serious about wanting people
> to use EDEN, you should release a Prolog or common lisp port.  If porting
> is a non-trivial exercise, then you can't expect those unfamiliar with
> pop to do it.  If its trivial, then why hasn't it been done?  I'd hate to
> think that one aim of the competition was to sell more Poplog systems.

I happen to know that there is no way that Jocelyn can benefit
financially from sales of Poplog systems. (Nor can I incidentally,
having left Sussex.) But he is perfectly in order if, as a
satisfied, or even enthusiastic user, he tries to encourage others
to use it. Lots of people recommend their favourite products
(bicycle, disk drive, car, book, spreadsheet package, etc. quite
innocently.)

In fact it would be very nice if, as a result of things like Eden
and this news group someone who has the time and resources were to
produce a free Pop-11 system.

I know that one consequence of this news group is that at least one
person is trying to produce his own, and if he succeeds, I hope he
will be in a position to make it freely available. Unfortunately it
is a non-trivial task.

Quote:
> > David

Best wishes.
Aaron
---
--
Aaron Sloman,
School of Computer Science, The University of Birmingham, B15 2TT, England

Phone: +44-(0)21-414-3711       Fax:   +44-(0)21-414-4281


Wed, 02 Aug 1995 17:01:41 GMT  
 
 [ 5 post ] 

 Relevant Pages 

1. HTML version of comp.lang.pop FAQ and RCLIB

2. comp.lang.pop FAQ

3. comp.lang.pop (and pop-forum) FAQ available in html

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5. comp.lang.forth and Comp.lang.pop

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