Card Columns (was Why did they make ... ?) 
Author Message
 Card Columns (was Why did they make ... ?)



Quote:
>Not disputing that, but I don't think IBM was a {*filter*} computer
>company globally until after the 360 line came out,

IBM was the shark in a pool of minnow. Google for "Seven Dwarves".
Trivia: who were the seven dwarves and who were the BUNCH?

--
     Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT

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Sat, 09 Jul 2005 01:29:43 GMT  
 Card Columns (was Why did they make ... ?)


Quote:
>Are you sure?  I started with IBM in June of 1960 in Cincinnati and I
>don't  recall seing a 1401 until sometime in 1961.  While I didn't
>use it myself, I  recall hearing about RPG from people who I thought
>were working on 650's and  704's and/or 705's at the time.

AFAIK there was never an RPG on the 650 or 704. I can't speak for the
705, but if there are any 7080 folks here they might know.

--
     Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT

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action.  I reserve the right to publicly post or ridicule any
abusive E-mail.

I mangled my E-mail address to foil automated spammers; reply to
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Sat, 09 Jul 2005 01:23:28 GMT  
 Card Columns (was Why did they make ... ?)



Quote:
>Actually it did.  The alpha characters were uppercase only and the
>shift
>  (FIGS) key accessed all the special symbols assigned to each
>alphabetic key.  The downshift (LTRS) key brought you back to
>alphabetic  mode.

No, that was the 28, which used Baudot and was earlier. The 33 didn't
come out until the 1960s.

--
     Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT

Any unsolicited commercial junk E-mail will be subject to legal
action.  I reserve the right to publicly post or ridicule any
abusive E-mail.

I mangled my E-mail address to foil automated spammers; reply to
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Sat, 09 Jul 2005 01:14:25 GMT  
 Card Columns (was Why did they make ... ?)


Quote:
>Columns 73-80 were ignored because the reader literally couldn't
>pick them up, unless you dropped in
>another control panel that was jumpered differently.

So you couldn't read them if you wired the board wrong? That's not
even close to "literally couldn't".

Quote:
>Putting numbers in columns 73-80 was to provide insurance against
>card decks being dropped by clumsy machine-room operators.  Running
>the deck through a sorter could put them back in order. The practice
>evolved into use of the sequence numbers to reference lines of code
>in batch
>"editing" of source "decks" on disk or tape.
>(See the IEBUPDTE system utility in OS/360 and beyond,

Well before then; IBM had editing for SQUOZE decks, and other vendors
had equivalents in the early 1960s, well before the S/360
announcement.

--
     Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT

Any unsolicited commercial junk E-mail will be subject to legal
action.  I reserve the right to publicly post or ridicule any
abusive E-mail.

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Sat, 09 Jul 2005 01:01:19 GMT  
 Card Columns (was Why did they make ... ?)
On Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:29:43 -0500

S> IBM was the shark in a pool of minnow. Google for "Seven Dwarves".
S> Trivia: who were the seven dwarves and who were the BUNCH?

        It's only been a month or so since that last came up.

        Seven Dwarves: RCA, Univac, GE, Honeywell, CDC, Burroughs, and NCR

        BUNCH: Burroughs, Univac, NCR, CDC, Honeywell

--
C:>WIN                                      |     Directable Mirrors
The computer obeys and wins.                |A Better Way To Focus The Sun
You lose and Bill collects.                 |  licenses available - see:
                                            |   http://www.sohara.org/



Sat, 09 Jul 2005 03:42:52 GMT  
 Card Columns (was Why did they make ... ?)

Quote:


>> You bring back fond memories. My very first experience as a programmer
>> was on a 16K 1401 at North American Aviation in 1961. We used
>> Autocoder but later developed our own assembler because Autocoder took
>> minutes to spin through the program tape looking for macros even when
>> our source code had none.  For business data processing (decimal
>> arithmetic and string processing) the 1401 had (and still has) the
>> best instruction set in existence. In addition to the luxury of 16K,
>> we also had 5 tape drives, a card-reader/punch and a 300LPM chain
>> printer.

> ??  The normal rating of the chain-based 1403's was 600LPM.

You're right.  I remembered it was the slower printer of the two models
we had in a very big shop.  The fast one was actually 1100LPM but they
hooked those up to the Mod 30's that provided I/O for the 360-65.

I didn't mean to exclude the other series, rather to acknowledge that
the 1401 pioneered the perfect instruction set for business.  They got
it right and at one time in history there were more 1401 computers in
the world than any other model.

Quote:

> I'd have to give the 1410/7010 a higher rating than the 1401/1440/1460
> line, since it was essentially an extended 1401.  (If you were careful,
> you could write neutral Autocoder that would assemble to either
> instruction set.)  Of course, they were a lot more expensive!



Sat, 09 Jul 2005 05:19:15 GMT  
 Card Columns (was Why did they make ... ?)
We are talking about different machines.  I was referring to the
teletypewriters used by Western Union 40's, 50's and 60's.  Some of us
hobbyists got our hands on these machines and attempted to use them with
computers.  They only had three rows of keys which explains why all the
digits and specials characters were accessed in FIGS mode.


Quote:


>>Actually it did.  The alpha characters were uppercase only and the
>>shift
>> (FIGS) key accessed all the special symbols assigned to each
>>alphabetic key.  The downshift (LTRS) key brought you back to
>>alphabetic  mode.

> No, that was the 28, which used Baudot and was earlier. The 33 didn't
> come out until the 1960s.



Sat, 09 Jul 2005 05:28:50 GMT  
 Card Columns (was Why did they make ... ?)

Quote:
> How do you design a system where you don't need JCL? You can, of

Burroughs Medium Systems (if my memories are correct).

Quote:
> can structure it, but you need some way to specify what functions to
> perform, where the inputs are and where to place the outputs.

In medium systems cobol, for example:

        FD  DSKFIL
            FILE CONTAINS 20 BY 1000 RECORDS
            BLOCK CONTAINS 10 RECORDS
            RECORD CONTAINS 150 CHARACTERS
            VALUE OF ID "XXXYYZ"
            DATA RECORDS ARE REC01 REC02.

        01  REC01.
            ...
        01  REC02.

We don't need no stinkin' JCL :-)

Admittedly, on large systems WFL does the JCL functions plus a bunch
more (again, if my memories are correct).

// marc



Sat, 09 Jul 2005 06:01:16 GMT  
 Card Columns (was Why did they make ... ?)

Quote:
> future systems (official follow-on for 360 for some period)
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#futuresys
> until it got killed. story is that some number of the future system
> people went up to rochester and did the s/38.

two of the somewhat more information references from above:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#16
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#33

with respect to side reference to s/1 in one of the above:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#67 System/1?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#70 System/1?

as an undergraduate ... having been on project that built our own 360
controller ... and getting blaimed for originating 360 pcm business,
later tried to start a project that would port the above
implementation from series/1 platform to a rios platform and make it
widely available (mid-80s flavor of running vtam RUs thru
high-performance packet network).

the original 360 pcm business thing caused a lot of heartburn in cpd
(and other) cicles (somewhat being motivation for some of FS
characteristics) ... the suggestion of this effort also resulted in
some amount of heartburn in cpd circles.

--

Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm



Sat, 09 Jul 2005 06:45:50 GMT  
 Card Columns (was Why did they make ... ?)

Quote:


> >>There were a good many US manufacturers -- Burroughs, Sperry-Rand,
> >>National Cash Register, Control Data, Honeywell, RCA, General Electric
> >>(collectively known as the "seven dwarfs") -- even Philco made a stab at
> >>it at one point, and had a fortran/ALGOL hybrid language called ALTAC.
> >>But IBM held a commanding presence in the US business world almost from
> >>the first, partly because they already dominated the pre-computer
> >>punched-card-accounting business.  (IBM's machines had been entirely
> >>programmable by the customer; Remington-Rand's machines had frequently
> >>needed an engineer or even a trip to the factory.)

> >>When the 360 came out, RCA simply copied its problem-state architecture
> >>(though they had an incompatible supervisor state, requiring their own
> >>operating systems), and Honeywell's entire advertising campaign, for
> >>years, was on the theme, "We can move you from an IBM 1401 to a
> >>Honeywell system more easily than IBM can move you to a 360."

> >Probably false advertising, as didn't IBM have a 1401 emulator for the
> >/360 ?
> >>--
> >>John W. Kennedy

> yeah but it was a HARDWARE based emulator which required that you re-IPL
> the machine.

That's what an emulator is.  It's hardware.
If it's in software, its called a simulator.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
> Software emulation didn't occur for quite a long while.....

> /s/ bill turner, wb4alm



Sat, 09 Jul 2005 07:32:37 GMT  
 Card Columns (was Why did they make ... ?)

Quote:
> > You bring back fond memories. My very first experience as a programmer
> > was on a 16K 1401 at North American Aviation in 1961. We used Autocoder
> > but later developed our own assembler because Autocoder took minutes to
> > spin through the program tape looking for macros even when our source
> > code had none.  For business data processing (decimal arithmetic and
> > string processing) the 1401 had (and still has) the best instruction set
> > in existence. In addition to the luxury of 16K, we also had 5 tape
> > drives, a card-reader/punch and a 300LPM chain printer.

> ??  The normal rating of the chain-based 1403's was 600LPM.

Only when printing blank lines.
For printing alphanumeric stuff, it slowed down a lot.
It couldn't keep up with the 600 card-per-minute reader.
Quote:
> --
> John W. Kennedy



Sat, 09 Jul 2005 08:00:13 GMT  
 
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