Just cant be !!!! (TQuery) 
Author Message
 Just cant be !!!! (TQuery)

This is so, and it's so for a reason. I too would like it to be more
flexible, but sorting and joining makes it much more difficult for the
database and Delphi. Sorting is difficult because your modifications
can change the order of records, and modification is difficult when
you join tables becuase there's no way to tell which table needs to be
updated. There are ways to do this, but they are at the program level,
not the database. For example, you can use Cached Updates and an
UpdateObject (in delphi 2) to allow updates to a read-only set.

HTH,
Ido Feldmann

On Tue, 12 Mar 1996 00:20:59 -0800, Ginzberg Dror

Quote:

>Hi all.

>In order to get a live dataset from a TQuery component the SQL statement
>must not have:
>    an "order by" parameter
>    fields from more than one table (for joins for example) etc.

>If it has one of the above the RequstLive property cannot be set to TRUE
>and the dataset cannot be edited.
>Is it really so??? cant i sort a few records and edit them ????
>cant I make a SQL that joins to tables and edit the dataset ????
>It is simply impossible to work easily with databases that way.

>Do I miss something ??? Please E-Mail me if so.
>Thanks, Dror.



Sun, 30 Aug 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Just cant be !!!! (TQuery)
From what I see in the latest 1.02) readme files, the order by parameter
can be used.
The bit about the joins is probably true


Wed, 02 Sep 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Just cant be !!!! (TQuery)

Quote:

>On Tue, 12 Mar 1996 00:20:59 -0800, Ginzberg Dror

>>In order to get a live dataset from a TQuery component the SQL statement
>>must not have:
>>    an "order by" parameter
>>    fields from more than one table (for joins for example) etc.

>This is so, and it's so for a reason. I too would like it to be more
>flexible, but sorting and joining makes it much more difficult for the
>database and Delphi.

And not sorting and joining makes it much more difficult for each and every
customer who must program around these shortcomings.

Quote:
>Sorting is difficult because your modifications
>can change the order of records, and modification is difficult when
>you join tables becuase there's no way to tell which table needs to be
>updated.

Hmmm... Visual Basic's Jet database engine seems to do this just fine.

Quote:
>There are ways to do this, but they are at the program level,
>not the database. For example, you can use Cached Updates and an
>UpdateObject (in Delphi 2) to allow updates to a read-only set.

Completely untrue.  Microsoft's Jet database engine allows editing of joined
and ordered data.  I've done VB programming for years, and this shortcoming
has me just about ready to go back to VB.  I'd assumed this shortcoming was
caused by a rush-to-market of 1.0, but 2.0 has the same limitations.

It's trivial to write a database browser/editor in VB; in Delphi, it's painful
if you want to allow something revolutionary like sorting or drilling down on
the dataset.

I need a TQUERY that returns a live dataset when a table is ordered, or
filtered.  Editible joins would be nice, but are too much to hope for.  :-(

<FLAME>
Borland's done some wonderful things with Delphi.  However, the BDE looks like
it was strewn together in a weekend by someone who'd never even seen the
competitive database engine from Microsoft.

The alternative is that Borland's programming staff just isn't up to the task
of competing with Microsoft, and I'd prefer to believe otherwise.

One of the features of VB that made it so popular with corporate developers is
its powerful, yet easy-to-use database engine.  Borland needs to develop one,
quickly.

While I'm at it, which expert product designer decided that version 2.0 of
Delphi would only create 32-bit executables?  If you want to compile for
Windows 3.1, you're back to Delphi 1.x.
</FLAME>

I'd love to hear Borland's reason/excuse for these shortcomings... anyone
heard the official party line?

| Albert Nurick                     | "In case of doubt, decide in |

| http://www.data.net               |                              |
| http://www.data.net/albert        |                 - Karl Kraus |



Mon, 07 Sep 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Just cant be !!!! (TQuery)

Quote:

>I need a TQUERY that returns a live dataset when a table is ordered, or
>filtered.  Editible joins would be nice, but are too much to hope for.  :-(

><FLAME>
>Borland's done some wonderful things with Delphi.  However, the BDE looks like
>it was strewn together in a weekend by someone who'd never even seen the
>competitive database engine from Microsoft.

No, BDE is essentialy the database engine from Paradox with a few
extra shiny bitz grafted on.  Paradox, for some unfathomable reason,
has _never_ done what you ask.  Paradox for Windows 5.0 (released ~2
years ago) was the first time you could get live results from a
SINGLE-TABLE query.  It hasn't really advanced any further since then,
so far as I can tell.

Quote:
>The alternative is that Borland's programming staff just isn't up to the task
>of competing with Microsoft, and I'd prefer to believe otherwise.

While I can't comment as to the sourrce of the problems, you are
essentially correct:  While Borland's products are a lot more
programmable and a lot morre powerful in many areas, their querying
capabilities can't touch Access.
Quote:
></FLAME>



Mon, 07 Sep 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Just cant be !!!! (TQuery)

Quote:


>>On Tue, 12 Mar 1996 00:20:59 -0800, Ginzberg Dror

>>>In order to get a live dataset from a TQuery component the SQL statement
>>>must not have:
>>>    an "order by" parameter

Delphi 2.0 does let you do updatable queries with an order by clause.
Look at the Delphi 2.0 Read me file and search for Live.  I even ran a
query against an Oracle database and it does return a live result
set.....

Quote:
>>>    fields from more than one table (for joins for example) etc.

>>This is so, and it's so for a reason. I too would like it to be more
>>flexible, but sorting and joining makes it much more difficult for the
>>database and Delphi.

>And not sorting and joining makes it much more difficult for each and every
>customer who must program around these shortcomings.

>>Sorting is difficult because your modifications
>>can change the order of records, and modification is difficult when
>>you join tables becuase there's no way to tell which table needs to be
>>updated.

>Hmmm... Visual Basic's Jet database engine seems to do this just fine.

>>There are ways to do this, but they are at the program level,
>>not the database. For example, you can use Cached Updates and an
>>UpdateObject (in Delphi 2) to allow updates to a read-only set.

>Completely untrue.  Microsoft's Jet database engine allows editing of joined
>and ordered data.  I've done VB programming for years, and this shortcoming
>has me just about ready to go back to VB.  I'd assumed this shortcoming was
>caused by a rush-to-market of 1.0, but 2.0 has the same limitations.

>It's trivial to write a database browser/editor in VB; in Delphi, it's painful
>if you want to allow something revolutionary like sorting or drilling down on
>the dataset.

>I need a TQUERY that returns a live dataset when a table is ordered, or
>filtered.  Editible joins would be nice, but are too much to hope for.  :-(

As far as multiple joins... This gets into a complicated area, but why
not link some tables or queries and use the Lookup fields to allow
your users to modify them.  

I honestly doubt that Microsoft's Jet engine will produce an updatable
query with joins (Well it may do it with an Access Table), but I would
love to be proved wrong.. If you have an example I would love to look
at it.

Quote:
><FLAME>
>Borland's done some wonderful things with Delphi.  However, the BDE looks like
>it was strewn together in a weekend by someone who'd never even seen the
>competitive database engine from Microsoft.

The BDE has been around a lot longer than the JET Engine. The BDE
formailly called the IDAPI Engine, and before that called the Paradox
Engine has been available to C programmers for years.....
Quote:

>The alternative is that Borland's programming staff just isn't up to the task
>of competing with Microsoft, and I'd prefer to believe otherwise.

>One of the features of VB that made it so popular with corporate developers is
>its powerful, yet easy-to-use database engine.  Borland needs to develop one,
>quickly.

That's a joke righ???   The Database tools with VB 3.0 were teriable
(Compaired to Delphi) and they still haven't improved much with 4.0.

Quote:
>While I'm at it, which expert product designer decided that version 2.0 of
>Delphi would only create 32-bit executables?  If you want to compile for
>Windows 3.1, you're back to Delphi 1.x.

That's why Borland included Delphi 1.0 with Delphi 2.0.. They don't
see a real need for a 16 bit version of Delphi..  Most people are
converting there apps to 32 bits.  In order for Borland to get a 16bit
and 32bit version of Delphi out, it would have delayed the product
several more months, and it still would lack some of the features like
Long Strings, the Optimizing Backend compiler, Windows 95 Controls,
etc...  Borland did say at the Developer converence that if the demand
was still there for 16 bit apps after 2.0 was released that they
probally come up with a updated Delphi 16 bit product.

Quote:
></FLAME>

>I'd love to hear Borland's reason/excuse for these shortcomings... anyone
>heard the official party line?

Brad Huggins


Tue, 08 Sep 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Just cant be !!!! (TQuery)

Quote:


>>On Tue, 12 Mar 1996 00:20:59 -0800, Ginzberg Dror

>>>In order to get a live dataset from a TQuery component the SQL statement
>>>must not have:
>>>    an "order by" parameter
>>>    fields from more than one table (for joins for example) etc.

>>This is so, and it's so for a reason. I too would like it to be more
>>flexible, but sorting and joining makes it much more difficult for the
>>database and Delphi.
>And not sorting and joining makes it much more difficult for each and every
>customer who must program around these shortcomings.

From the Delphi 2.0 README.TXT file:

    Updateable SQL queries
    ----------------------------------------
      o The online help on Syntax Requirements for a Live Result Set
        should state that ORDER BY clauses are allowed in updateable
        queries.

Quote:
>Completely untrue.  Microsoft's Jet database engine allows editing of joined
>and ordered data.  I've done VB programming for years, and this shortcoming
>has me just about ready to go back to VB.  I'd assumed this shortcoming was
>caused by a rush-to-market of 1.0, but 2.0 has the same limitations.

I don't know much about the Jet engine, but are you able to use it
with any SQL database?  I'm not talking through ODBC (which is a
different ball of wax) and please don't say SQL Server only.


Tue, 08 Sep 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Just cant be !!!! (TQuery)

Quote:


>It's trivial to write a database browser/editor in VB; in Delphi, it's painful
>if you want to allow something revolutionary like sorting or drilling down on
>the dataset.
>I need a TQUERY that returns a live dataset when a table is ordered, or
>filtered.  Editible joins would be nice, but are too much to hope for.  :-(
><FLAME>
>Borland's done some wonderful things with Delphi.  However, the BDE looks like
>it was strewn together in a weekend by someone who'd never even seen the
>competitive database engine from Microsoft.

HERE HERE!  Albert, you took the words right out of my mouth.  Delphi
is an incredibly visionary product.  It could wrap up the
Client/Server market in a heartbeat if Borland would do a couple of
simple things:  

1) allow the developer to turn off some of the STUPID rules that the
BDE imposes.  

1a) What the hell is a "Live Result Set", anyway.  In the SQL world,
there is no such thing.  I think that Borland might want to ask if the
query is to update-lock the result set, but that should be an option
totally separate from whether UPDATE SQL statements are allowed
(through changing data in data aware controls).

1b) Quit fetching rows of a query unless I ask you to!  BDE assumes
that my query may result in a table lock on the queried table.
Please, give us the same ability to scale our database expertise as
you give us to scale our OOP expertise.

Quote:
>The alternative is that Borland's programming staff just isn't up to the task
>of competing with Microsoft, and I'd prefer to believe otherwise.

I think that you are on to something here.  Everything about Delphi is
superb but the BDE.  When I first saw the cached updates, my first
thought was that the VCL Developers could not get anything through the
thick heads of the BDE people, and decided to take matters into their
own hands (as far as they could).

The design of the VCL data components is pretty poor, too.  It is
written in a way so that adding your own TDataset component without
the use of the BDE is impossible without replacing the VCL DB.DCU.
Borland could get away with their poor BDE drivers through 3rd party
developers if they would add an abstraction layer between TDataset and
the BDE.

If you want to make some serious money, figue out how to write a
TDataset descendant / replacement that plugs into ODBC without the
BDE.  I know it could be done.  100% compliance with the ODBC 2.0
standard would put all of the pressure on the DB Manufacturers to get
their ODBC's in line (most are way past the BDE folks).  I'm sure that
any company who would pay Borland the extra $1500 for C/S would rather
pay $3000 for a product that worked ( I will ).

BLH.

---
It is now safe (and mandatory) for you to turn off your computer.



Thu, 10 Sep 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Just cant be !!!! (TQuery)
I'm not the greatest fan of Borland but again I have no love for
Microsoft either.  Lets face it the BDE with all its shortcomings is
still the best one on the market.  While others praise Apollo tey fail
to note it's shortcomings.  VB with its Access engine is no bargain
either.  But in final comparison the BDE with Delphi beats the bunch
hands down.  The writer below belittling the BDE seems like he has no
programming experience whatsoever and I would say no knowledge of that
beast at all.  Or in the alternative is an agent for Microsoft.  I
still can't think of a real solid product Microsoft put out on its own.
I think proffesional here would concur with me.

Ben
Arrow


Quote:
Sherohman) writes:


>>I need a TQUERY that returns a live dataset when a table is ordered,
or
>>filtered.  Editible joins would be nice, but are too much to hope
for.  :-(

>><FLAME>
>>Borland's done some wonderful things with Delphi.  However, the BDE
looks like
>>it was strewn together in a weekend by someone who'd never even seen
the
>>competitive database engine from Microsoft.

>No, BDE is essentialy the database engine from Paradox with a few
>extra shiny bitz grafted on.  Paradox, for some unfathomable reason,
>has _never_ done what you ask.  Paradox for Windows 5.0 (released ~2
>years ago) was the first time you could get live results from a
>SINGLE-TABLE query.  It hasn't really advanced any further since then,
>so far as I can tell.

>>The alternative is that Borland's programming staff just isn't up to
the task
>>of competing with Microsoft, and I'd prefer to believe otherwise.

>While I can't comment as to the sourrce of the problems, you are
>essentially correct:  While Borland's products are a lot more
>programmable and a lot morre powerful in many areas, their querying
>capabilities can't touch Access.

>></FLAME>



Sat, 12 Sep 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Just cant be !!!! (TQuery)

Quote:
>Completely untrue.  Microsoft's Jet database engine allows editing of joined
>and ordered data.  I've done VB programming for years, and this shortcoming
>has me just about ready to go back to VB.  I'd assumed this shortcoming was
>caused by a rush-to-market of 1.0, but 2.0 has the same limitations.

>It's trivial to write a database browser/editor in VB; in Delphi, it's painful
>if you want to allow something revolutionary like sorting or drilling down on
>the dataset.

>I need a TQUERY that returns a live dataset when a table is ordered, or
>filtered.  Editible joins would be nice, but are too much to hope for.  :-(

        I will aggree this drove me crazy when I first came to Delphi. However, all you
eed to do is link a TTAble to the Query, and bind your edit's to it.

        It is just in the way you think. Thought habits are hard to change.

_
******************************************************************
NOTE: This software is currently in early alpha. If you notice any

Please do not report duplicates, as this is usually a manual resend
+------------------------------------------------------------+


|Physically in Church Hill, TN - Logically Not Sure          |
+------------------------------------------------------------+

Quote:
>>SQUID - The ultimate 32 bit offline databasing reader

**Special Compile: 3.000A (Alpha)


Sat, 12 Sep 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Just cant be !!!! (TQuery)

Quote:
>From the Delphi 2.0 README.TXT file:

>    Updateable SQL queries
>    ----------------------------------------
>      o The online help on Syntax Requirements for a Live Result Set
>        should state that ORDER BY clauses are allowed in updateable
>        queries.

        I have seen this, however using Paradox tables (7.0) I have NOT been able to
getthis to work.

        Go to the BDE, set it to request live results. Then run a query, the resultant
tble does NOT have the little icons on the field which state it is updatable.

        Any one else?

_
******************************************************************
NOTE: This software is currently in early alpha. If you notice any

Please do not report duplicates, as this is usually a manual resend
+------------------------------------------------------------+


|Physically in Church Hill, TN - Logically Not Sure          |
+------------------------------------------------------------+

Quote:
>>SQUID - The ultimate 32 bit offline databasing reader

**Special Compile: 3.000A (Alpha)


Sat, 12 Sep 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Just cant be !!!! (TQuery)

Quote:

> I'm not the greatest fan of Borland but again I have no love for
> Microsoft either.  Lets face it the BDE with all its shortcomings is
> still the best one on the market.  While others praise Apollo tey fail
> to note it's shortcomings.  VB with its Access engine is no bargain
> either.  But in final comparison the BDE with Delphi beats the bunch
> hands down.  The writer below belittling the BDE seems like he has no
> programming experience whatsoever and I would say no knowledge of that
> beast at all.  Or in the alternative is an agent for Microsoft.  I
> still can't think of a real solid product Microsoft put out on its own.
> I think proffesional here would concur with me.

I'm sorry to have to disagree with you. I've worked with both extensively, and there's really no point
comparing the Jet engine/.MDB against the BDE/P7.  Nested transactions, updateable joins, relational
cascade, performance, stability, and on and on. Offhand, other than perhaps a smaller memory footprint,
I can't think of anything to prefer about BDE.

Sadly - at least until the AmiSys BDE replacement is released - there's just no acceptable way to use
Jet3 with D2.

=steve



Sun, 13 Sep 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Just cant be !!!! (TQuery)

Quote:


> > I'm not the greatest fan of Borland but again I have no love for
> > Microsoft either.  Lets face it the BDE with all its shortcomings is
> > still the best one on the market.  While others praise Apollo tey fail
> > to note it's shortcomings.  VB with its Access engine is no bargain
> > either.  But in final comparison the BDE with Delphi beats the bunch
> > hands down.  The writer below belittling the BDE seems like he has no
> > programming experience whatsoever and I would say no knowledge of that
> > beast at all.  Or in the alternative is an agent for Microsoft.  I
> > still can't think of a real solid product Microsoft put out on its own.
> > I think proffesional here would concur with me.

> I'm sorry to have to disagree with you. I've worked with both extensively, and there's really no point
> comparing the Jet engine/.MDB against the BDE/P7.  Nested transactions, updateable joins, relational
> cascade, performance, stability, and on and on. Offhand, other than perhaps a smaller memory footprint,
> I can't think of anything to prefer about BDE.

> Sadly - at least until the AmiSys BDE replacement is released - there's just no acceptable way to use
> Jet3 with D2.

> =steve

What is "AmiSys BDE replacement"????

Michael Beck



Mon, 14 Sep 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Just cant be !!!! (TQuery)

Quote:

> I'm not the greatest fan of Borland but again I have no love for
> Microsoft either.  Lets face it the BDE with all its shortcomings is
> still the best one on the market.  

Based upon what criteria?  The shortcomings of the product (a few of which I
enumerated in my original post) were simply unbelievable to me... I spent lots
of time trying to find *my* mistake.

How can someone market a database engine in 1996 that won't let you edit a
sorted or filtered table?

Quote:
>But in final comparison the BDE with Delphi beats the bunch
> hands down.  The writer below belittling the BDE seems like he has no
> programming experience whatsoever and I would say no knowledge of that
> beast at all.  

I've been doing commercial software development since 1983.  I've released
multiple commercial products which have been Editor's Choices in publications
such as PC Magazine.  I'll refer you to my resume if you need more specific
references.  (http://www.data.net/albert/an_prof.htm)

Quote:
>Or in the alternative is an agent for Microsoft.

I'm not, and have never been, a Microsoft representative.

Quote:
> I still can't think of a real solid product Microsoft put out on its own.

I don't care where a firm finds its products.  I do care about what they
deliver, and Microsoft has delivered a powerful DBMS engine with Visual Basic.

Quote:
> I think proffesional here would concur with me.

I won't touch this.

| Albert Nurick                     | "In case of doubt, decide in |

| http://www.data.net               |                              |
| http://www.data.net/albert        |                 - Karl Kraus |



Sat, 19 Sep 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Just cant be !!!! (TQuery)

Quote:


>> [BDE supporting comments deleted]

>Sadly - at least until the AmiSys BDE replacement is released - there's just no
>acceptable way to use Jet3 with D2.

Do you have a pointer to this AmiSys product?

| Albert Nurick                     | "In case of doubt, decide in |

| http://www.data.net               |                              |
| http://www.data.net/albert        |                 - Karl Kraus |



Sat, 19 Sep 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 
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