Web Apps as ST's Killer 
Author Message
 Web Apps as ST's Killer

I'm curious what people think today (Apr 2002) of the idea that web
application delivery could be Smalltalks's "killer app" and that web
application delivery could be a niche where smalltalk could outstrip
other technologies pretty handily.  What do you all think?

I've been working in Zope, ColdFusion, PHP, and JSP.  They have their
nice points, but my imagination really catches on fire thinking about a
serious database-based web application delivery environment that takes
off wildly.



Fri, 15 Oct 2004 14:53:02 GMT  
 Web Apps as ST's Killer

Quote:
> I'm curious what people think today (Apr 2002) of the idea that web
> application delivery could be SmallTalks's "killer app" and that web
> application delivery could be a niche where smalltalk could outstrip
> other technologies pretty handily.  What do you all think?

> I've been working in Zope, ColdFusion, PHP, and JSP.  They have their
> nice points, but my imagination really catches on fire thinking about a
> serious database-based web application delivery environment that takes
> off wildly.

I think it's a possibility. On the web, no one cares what your execution
environment is, and Smalltalk's are beginning to (finally) provide
competitive environments in these spaces. This is certainly the direction
that I'm looking, and the initial responses we've been getting from people
who've now had time to build stuff in the VW Web Toolkit have been very
positive. Now, we just need to take care of the database end...


Sat, 16 Oct 2004 00:48:14 GMT  
 Web Apps as ST's Killer
I think the paradigm is changing as we speak.

The trend is towards web services. This means instead of brower clients, we
may be going back to rich clients which talk to remote services via SOAP.
Thus we can have the richness, control and immediacy of a local application
but with the same reach and accessiblity as a web application.

Because SOAP is based on HTTP, SOAP clients can access web services accross
firewalls, etc.

This may be the next killer app.

Faisal


Quote:

> > I'm curious what people think today (Apr 2002) of the idea that web
> > application delivery could be SmallTalks's "killer app" and that web
> > application delivery could be a niche where smalltalk could outstrip
> > other technologies pretty handily.  What do you all think?

> > I've been working in Zope, ColdFusion, PHP, and JSP.  They have their
> > nice points, but my imagination really catches on fire thinking about a
> > serious database-based web application delivery environment that takes
> > off wildly.

> I think it's a possibility. On the web, no one cares what your execution
> environment is, and Smalltalk's are beginning to (finally) provide
> competitive environments in these spaces. This is certainly the direction
> that I'm looking, and the initial responses we've been getting from people
> who've now had time to build stuff in the VW Web Toolkit have been very
> positive. Now, we just need to take care of the database end...



Sat, 16 Oct 2004 06:21:17 GMT  
 Web Apps as ST's Killer
I could agree with that.  I think that many companies (especially large ones) have
a lot of $ invested in the "rich clients".  Also, users haven't received the
experience they are accustomed to from Web apps (not to mention the human cost of
development), but deployment of rich clients is also expensive.  So, save some
business logic and presentation while removing plumbing to a common source (data
access and aggregation).

So, I would think that a mature environment that can handle complex plumbing
issues as well as business logic in a shareable high availability environment
would be more than welcome.  

MB

Quote:

> I think the paradigm is changing as we speak.

> The trend is towards web services. This means instead of brower clients, we
> may be going back to rich clients which talk to remote services via SOAP.
> Thus we can have the richness, control and immediacy of a local application
> but with the same reach and accessiblity as a web application.

> Because SOAP is based on HTTP, SOAP clients can access web services accross
> firewalls, etc.

> This may be the next killer app.

> Faisal




> > > I'm curious what people think today (Apr 2002) of the idea that web
> > > application delivery could be SmallTalks's "killer app" and that web
> > > application delivery could be a niche where smalltalk could outstrip
> > > other technologies pretty handily.  What do you all think?

> > > I've been working in Zope, ColdFusion, PHP, and JSP.  They have their
> > > nice points, but my imagination really catches on fire thinking about a
> > > serious database-based web application delivery environment that takes
> > > off wildly.

> > I think it's a possibility. On the web, no one cares what your execution
> > environment is, and Smalltalk's are beginning to (finally) provide
> > competitive environments in these spaces. This is certainly the direction
> > that I'm looking, and the initial responses we've been getting from people
> > who've now had time to build stuff in the VW Web Toolkit have been very
> > positive. Now, we just need to take care of the database end...



Sat, 16 Oct 2004 08:53:43 GMT  
 Web Apps as ST's Killer

Quote:
>I've been working in Zope, ColdFusion, PHP, and JSP.  They have their
>nice points, but my imagination really catches on fire thinking about a
>serious database-based web application delivery environment that takes
>off wildly.

Yup. Have you looked at Squeak's Seaside? I'm porting it to VW. My killer
environment: VW, OmniBase, Seaside; hopefully running in a week or so,
when I can start underbidding people using any of the technologies you
cite above by at least 30%. As an ISP that is also involved in site
building and mediation (we find a fitting builder in our partner network
for the customer and do the project management), I have noted that a lot
of customers are completely uninterested in what sort of technology is
applied, as long as their site gets up.

Great opportunities for Smalltalk (oh, and did I mention we host the
stuff you build? ;-))

--

GnuPG 1024D/E0989E8B 0016 F679 F38D 5946 4ECD  1986 F303 937F E098 9E8B



Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:22:18 GMT  
 Web Apps as ST's Killer

Quote:
>Now, we just need to take care of the database end...

Hmm. OmniBase does almost everything I want ;-)

(almost - because it wants to write implementation-independent databases, you
cannot persist stuff like processes and method blocks...)

--

GnuPG 1024D/E0989E8B 0016 F679 F38D 5946 4ECD  1986 F303 937F E098 9E8B



Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:24:04 GMT  
 Web Apps as ST's Killer

Quote:
>The trend is towards web services.

Hmm. The trend is certainly towards talking about web services, but I've yet
to see them on the desktop on any large scale (at the server end, I think yes,
and it would really be useful - there are hardly any stand-alone complex web
apps left, and they can benefit a lot by putting all the connections under a
single umbrella. At the very least, it'll save a lot of stupid low-level work
like writing yet another message format's generator/scanner).

Quote:
>Because SOAP is based on HTTP, SOAP clients can access web services accross
>firewalls, etc.

>This may be the next killer app.

Well, with the instant firewall piercing capabilities, it is certainly the
next security killer app. But whaddaya expect, with so much heavy Microsoft
involvement ;-)

(hopefully people will come to realize that firewalls are, in a lot of
respects, a really stupid idea).

--

GnuPG 1024D/E0989E8B 0016 F679 F38D 5946 4ECD  1986 F303 937F E098 9E8B



Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:28:39 GMT  
 Web Apps as ST's Killer


Quote:

>>Now, we just need to take care of the database end...

> Hmm. OmniBase does almost everything I want ;-)

> (almost - because it wants to write implementation-independent
> databases, you cannot persist stuff like processes and method
> blocks...)

For OODB users I'd consider the problem essentially taken care of. Perhaps
I should say "we just need to take care of the _relational_ database end"


Sat, 16 Oct 2004 22:28:58 GMT  
 Web Apps as ST's Killer

Quote:
> The trend is towards web services. This means instead of brower clients, we
> may be going back to rich clients which talk to remote services via SOAP.
> Thus we can have the richness, control and immediacy of a local application
> but with the same reach and accessiblity as a web application.

> Because SOAP is based on HTTP, SOAP clients can access web services accross
> firewalls, etc.

> This may be the next killer app.

As it happens, I've just come across REST - "representational state
transfer". It's kinda like positioned the opposite of SOAP.

http://conveyor.com/RESTwiki/moin.cgi

--



Sun, 17 Oct 2004 00:46:33 GMT  
 Web Apps as ST's Killer

Quote:


>>The trend is towards web services. This means instead of brower clients, we
>>may be going back to rich clients which talk to remote services via SOAP.
>>Thus we can have the richness, control and immediacy of a local application
>>but with the same reach and accessiblity as a web application.

>>Because SOAP is based on HTTP, SOAP clients can access web services accross
>>firewalls, etc.

>>This may be the next killer app.

> As it happens, I've just come across REST - "representational state
> transfer". It's kinda like positioned the opposite of SOAP.

> http://conveyor.com/RESTwiki/moin.cgi

I'm skeptical of SOAP.

After a quick read, I also find the REST papers intriguing.

Nevin



Sun, 17 Oct 2004 12:01:06 GMT  
 Web Apps as ST's Killer

Quote:

> I'm curious what people think today (Apr 2002) of the idea that web
> application delivery could be SmallTalks's "killer app" and that web
> application delivery could be a niche where smalltalk could outstrip
> other technologies pretty handily.  What do you all think?

I think it will come to pass! Smalltalk is simply more productive
in terms of conceptual modeling of problems and solutions. Once
you got a good IDE, and a good open-source community working on
the libraries, it will beat other things out there.

The deciding factor at that point will be fast Web-Application-
server -support for Smalltalk. The sooner we get it, better for
this planet.

Perhaps I sound naive - or a mad scientist - but I agree
to a degree with the TV -series Highlander:  In the end
there can be only one.

The streamlined characteristics of Smalltalk will within next
10 to 20 years make it inevitable for most programmers to choose
it - or something like it - over other programming languages.

The biggest challenge in my view for Smalltalk right now, is
how to make it tap into the vast libraries of software written
in other languages, and how to allow other applications - such
as Web-servers - tap into Smalltalk, to allow us implement
web-services with Smalltalk.

-Panu Viljamaa



Sun, 17 Oct 2004 15:02:24 GMT  
 Web Apps as ST's Killer
Look at the Web Toolkit in VW 5i.4 - and in teh soon to be released VW 7.
By adding support for custom tag libs, servlets, and ssps - we make the
development of web apps a whole lot easier



Quote:

>> I'm curious what people think today (Apr 2002) of the idea that web
>> application delivery could be SmallTalks's "killer app" and that web
>> application delivery could be a niche where smalltalk could outstrip
>> other technologies pretty handily.  What do you all think?

>I think it will come to pass! Smalltalk is simply more productive
>in terms of conceptual modeling of problems and solutions. Once
>you got a good IDE, and a good open-source community working on
>the libraries, it will beat other things out there.

>The deciding factor at that point will be fast Web-Application-
>server -support for Smalltalk. The sooner we get it, better for
>this planet.

>Perhaps I sound naive - or a mad scientist - but I agree
>to a degree with the TV -series Highlander:  In the end
>there can be only one.

>The streamlined characteristics of Smalltalk will within next
>10 to 20 years make it inevitable for most programmers to choose
>it - or something like it - over other programming languages.

>The biggest challenge in my view for Smalltalk right now, is
>how to make it tap into the vast libraries of software written
>in other languages, and how to allow other applications - such
>as Web-servers - tap into Smalltalk, to allow us implement
>web-services with Smalltalk.

>-Panu Viljamaa

--
James A. Robertson
Product Manager (Smalltalk), Cincom

<Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>


Sun, 17 Oct 2004 20:27:09 GMT  
 Web Apps as ST's Killer


Quote:


> >>The trend is towards web services. This means instead of brower clients,
we
> >>may be going back to rich clients which talk to remote services via
SOAP.
> >>Thus we can have the richness, control and immediacy of a local
application
> >>but with the same reach and accessiblity as a web application.

> >>Because SOAP is based on HTTP, SOAP clients can access web services
accross
> >>firewalls, etc.

> >>This may be the next killer app.

> > As it happens, I've just come across REST - "representational state
> > transfer". It's kinda like positioned the opposite of SOAP.

> > http://conveyor.com/RESTwiki/moin.cgi

> I'm skeptical of SOAP.

> After a quick read, I also find the REST papers intriguing.

> Nevin

I think the value of SOAP is that it is most likely to become a widespread
standard. Also, most of the grunt work of SOAP will be handled by tools. We
as developers will probably never write a WSDL (Web Services Description
Language) file by hand.

Also, SOAP/Web Services will have a lot of support such as security spec,
workflow spec, directory services (UDDI), etc.

Faisal



Sun, 17 Oct 2004 23:00:10 GMT  
 Web Apps as ST's Killer
I'm also impressed with seaside - and I use OmniBase on Dolphin.  I'm
looking to see if we can port there also - only as an academic exercise
to start - Dolphin needs continuations first -

jlo

Quote:


>>I've been working in Zope, ColdFusion, PHP, and JSP.  They have their
>>nice points, but my imagination really catches on fire thinking about a
>>serious database-based web application delivery environment that takes
>>off wildly.

> Yup. Have you looked at Squeak's Seaside? I'm porting it to VW. My killer
> environment: VW, OmniBase, Seaside; hopefully running in a week or so,
> when I can start underbidding people using any of the technologies you
> cite above by at least 30%. As an ISP that is also involved in site
> building and mediation (we find a fitting builder in our partner network
> for the customer and do the project management), I have noted that a lot
> of customers are completely uninterested in what sort of technology is
> applied, as long as their site gets up.

> Great opportunities for Smalltalk (oh, and did I mention we host the
> stuff you build? ;-))



Mon, 18 Oct 2004 01:03:54 GMT  
 Web Apps as ST's Killer

Quote:

>I'm also impressed with seaside - and I use OmniBase on Dolphin.  I'm
>looking to see if we can port there also - only as an academic exercise
>to start - Dolphin needs continuations first -

>jlo

I'm going to port Seaside to SmallScript for fun.

Ian

---
http://www.upright.net/ian/



Mon, 18 Oct 2004 04:15:37 GMT  
 
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