5i advantage over java 
Author Message
 5i advantage over java

I am reading that one of the advantages of the VisualWorks 5i plugin, is
that "if the browser crashes, the applet is taken down with it as it
runs inside the browser's address space.  VisualWorks doesn't"

but of what use could the Smalltalk applet be without the existence of a
browser?  could a smalltalk applet determine that the browser it was
connecting to just crashed and thus launch a new one?

... or maybe I am missing something else?

- alexis

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Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 5i advantage over java
If you use the plugIn to deploy headless applications for instance, the
browser can be shut down and the app still runs.  Also, the Smalltalk
applet can launch regular windows--it isn't forced to display in a
browser...  The browser is just a deployment vehicle in this case...
Quote:

> I am reading that one of the advantages of the VisualWorks 5i plugin, is
> that "if the browser crashes, the applet is taken down with it as it
> runs inside the browser's address space.  VisualWorks doesn't"

> but of what use could the smalltalk applet be without the existence of a
> browser?  could a smalltalk applet determine that the browser it was
> connecting to just crashed and thus launch a new one?

> ... or maybe I am missing something else?

> - alexis

> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 5i advantage over java

Quote:

> If you use the plugIn to deploy headless applications for instance, the
> browser can be shut down and the app still runs.  Also, the Smalltalk
> applet can launch regular windows--it isn't forced to display in a
> browser...  The browser is just a deployment vehicle in this case...


> > I am reading that one of the advantages of the VisualWorks 5i plugin, is
> > that "if the browser crashes, the applet is taken down with it as it
> > runs inside the browser's address space.  VisualWorks doesn't"

> > but of what use could the smalltalk applet be without the existence of a
> > browser?  could a smalltalk applet determine that the browser it was
> > connecting to just crashed and thus launch a new one?

And give Pete's response, I'll bet you could do just that, detect that the
browser went down and restart it. Cool. In fact, you could probably BOSS out a
process to do just that and distribute it... ah, but I diverge. Smalltalk is
just sooo coool.

--
Travis Griggs (a.k.a. Lord of the Fries)
Member, Fraven Skreiggs Software Collective
Key Technology
P-P-P-Penguin  Power!



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 5i advantage over java

Quote:


> > If you use the plugIn to deploy headless applications for instance, the
> > browser can be shut down and the app still runs.  Also, the Smalltalk
> > applet can launch regular windows--it isn't forced to display in a
> > browser...  The browser is just a deployment vehicle in this case...


> > > I am reading that one of the advantages of the VisualWorks 5i plugin, is
> > > that "if the browser crashes, the applet is taken down with it as it
> > > runs inside the browser's address space.  VisualWorks doesn't"

> > > but of what use could the smalltalk applet be without the existence of a
> > > browser?  could a smalltalk applet determine that the browser it was
> > > connecting to just crashed and thus launch a new one?

> And give Pete's response, I'll bet you could do just that, detect that the
> browser went down and restart it. Cool. In fact, you could probably BOSS out a
> process to do just that and distribute it... ah, but I diverge. Smalltalk is
> just sooo coool.

It would also mean that you could run native multi-threaded apps on all
platforms that Netscape is available for (and that support THAPI)...
There are some real advantages to not being in Netscape's process
space...

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
> --
> Travis Griggs (a.k.a. Lord of the Fries)
> Member, Fraven Skreiggs Software Collective
> Key Technology
> P-P-P-Penguin  Power!



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 5i advantage over java


Quote:
> I am reading that one of the advantages of the VisualWorks 5i plugin, is
> that "if the browser crashes, the applet is taken down with it as it
> runs inside the browser's address space.  VisualWorks doesn't"

> but of what use could the smalltalk applet be without the existence of a
> browser?  could a smalltalk applet determine that the browser it was
> connecting to just crashed and thus launch a new one?

> ... or maybe I am missing something else?

> - alexis

I have no idea who at ObjectShare wrote the language you quote and can't
speak for them. However, I do have some thoughts on the topic.

There is nothing magic in the plug-in support, but there is a lot to be
said for having VisualWorks outside of the browser. Normally plug-ins share
the address space of the browser and whatever happens to the browser
happens to the plug-in. Since VisualWorks is outside of the browser address
proper, anything going wrong in its address space is directly related to
VisualWorks. There are things that the browser can do, such as abruptly
destroying the browser window being used by the plug-in, that will give
VisualWorks heartburn, but for the most part the two are separate.

Since both the browser and VisualWorks make effective use of memory, i.e.
more is definitely better, it is usually easier for the operating system to
manage two reasonable sized address spaces rather than one huge one. Back
before everyone went whole hog for multi-threaded designs, wasn't there
that experimental operating system at Bell Labs that divided things into
multiple processes in separate address spaces for just such reasons? I
think it was abandoned, which is why we now all run Multics on our desktop
GE 645s.

VisualWorks only has one of its windows tied to the browser. Any windows it
opens outside of the browser will continue to be active after the browser
is long gone. Similarly any application specific termination cleanup needed
is done outside of the browser and not directly dependent on the browser.

However, now that you mention it, one could monitor the status of the
browser and start a new one, but that would take some extra code and, in my
opinion, be asking for trouble. If the browser went down when it wasn't
expected to, there may be a problem that needs to be addressed before
firing up the next attempt.

That notwithstanding, the most obvious implementation would be a separate
thread in the VisualWorks image, i.e. a Smalltalk Process, that checks for
stalled plug-in requests and termination of the browser process. Other
techniques could also be used. The browsers are not especially good about
informing plug-ins as to the cause of errors and stalled requests are
possible for more prosaic reasons. Some browsers are also prone to doing
things like freeing all plug-in allocated memory and destroying the plug-in
before any error handling is possible, so very defensive coding would be
needed to make this a reliable feature.

There is a function still not in the VW 5i plug-in for rejoining the image
with the browser once the browser comes back up, and that would be needed
to really get things started again. It would be a handy feature to have for
other reasons as well, but gosh, you have to stop somewhere or nothing ever
gets released.

--

John L. Baker

Advanced Boolean Concepts, Ltd.
http://www.advbool.com



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 5i advantage over java
So long as you either

-- don't need to communicate with the server
-- communicate via sockets, CORBA, COM, or OpenTalk

Then you don't need the browser itself.

Quote:

> I am reading that one of the advantages of the VisualWorks 5i plugin, is
> that "if the browser crashes, the applet is taken down with it as it
> runs inside the browser's address space.  VisualWorks doesn't"

> but of what use could the smalltalk applet be without the existence of a
> browser?  could a smalltalk applet determine that the browser it was
> connecting to just crashed and thus launch a new one?

> ... or maybe I am missing something else?

> - alexis

> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

--
<Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>

Opinions expressed are mine alone, and do not necessarily reflect those
of my employer

James A. Robertson
Senior Sales Engineer, ObjectShare



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 5i advantage over java

Quote:

> > > > I am reading that one of the advantages of the VisualWorks 5i plugin, is
> > > > that "if the browser crashes, the applet is taken down with it as it
> > > > runs inside the browser's address space.  VisualWorks doesn't"

Could anybody comment on how 5i's offering
compares to Dolphin's smalltalk applets ?

Thanks
-panu



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 5i advantage over java
This would currently be difficult because the dolphin one is not released as
of yet.
I would post this question to the dolphin newsgroup though, Andy Bower may
have some
comments on it.

Quote:


>> > > > I am reading that one of the advantages of the VisualWorks 5i
plugin, is
>> > > > that "if the browser crashes, the applet is taken down with it as
it
>> > > > runs inside the browser's address space.  VisualWorks doesn't"

>Could anybody comment on how 5i's offering
>compares to Dolphin's smalltalk applets ?

>Thanks
>-panu



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 5i advantage over java
Panu Viljamaa schrieb:

Quote:


> > > > > I am reading that one of the advantages of the VisualWorks 5i plugin, is
> > > > > that "if the browser crashes, the applet is taken down with it as it
> > > > > runs inside the browser's address space.  VisualWorks doesn't"

> Could anybody comment on how 5i's offering
> compares to Dolphin's smalltalk applets ?

 Does Dolphin run under non-windows based operating systems ?

 Marten



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 5i advantage over java
Nope



Quote:
> Panu Viljamaa schrieb:


> > > > > > I am reading that one of the advantages of the VisualWorks
5i plugin, is
> > > > > > that "if the browser crashes, the applet is taken down with
it as it
> > > > > > runs inside the browser's address space.  VisualWorks
doesn't"

> > Could anybody comment on how 5i's offering
> > compares to Dolphin's smalltalk applets ?

>  Does Dolphin run under non-windows based operating systems ?

>  Marten

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.


Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 5i advantage over java
Does the VW Plugin run on non-Windows platforms? I think this is only
planned, isn't it?
Quote:

> Panu Viljamaa schrieb:


> > > > > > I am reading that one of the advantages of the VisualWorks 5i plugin, is
> > > > > > that "if the browser crashes, the applet is taken down with it as it
> > > > > > runs inside the browser's address space.  VisualWorks doesn't"

> > Could anybody comment on how 5i's offering
> > compares to Dolphin's smalltalk applets ?

>  Does Dolphin run under non-windows based operating systems ?

>  Marten



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 
 [ 11 post ] 

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