Small Programs written in SmallTalk or Eiffel 
Author Message
 Small Programs written in SmallTalk or Eiffel

comp.lang.java.advocacy is often visited by people using Eiffel and
specially Smalltalk talking about the benefits of using their language
of choice.

Usually they are talking about large projects where the benefits of
"real" OO languages are most noticeable.

My questions is: Can you point me to a place where I can download some
small programs that will give me some feeling about what kind of
performance (and size of the programs) I can expect from this languages.
I would also like to see how the GUI created with this languages looks
like and works.

The only application written in SmallTalk that I think have used is
Visual Age For Java. (I was told that was written in SmallTalk - I hope
somebody can confirm this.)

Regards,

Eugene



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Small Programs written in SmallTalk or Eiffel


Quote:
>comp.lang.java.advocacy is often visited by people using Eiffel and
>specially SmallTalk talking about the benefits of using their language
>of choice.

>Usually they are talking about large projects where the benefits of
>"real" OO languages are most noticeable.

>My questions is: Can you point me to a place where I can download some
>small programs that will give me some feeling about what kind of
>performance (and size of the programs) I can expect from this languages.
>I would also like to see how the GUI created with this languages looks
>like and works.

>The only application written in SmallTalk that I think have used is
>Visual Age For Java. (I was told that was written in SmallTalk - I hope
>somebody can confirm this.)

>Regards,

>Eugene

http://www.eiffel-forum.org/archive/index.htm

would probably be a good place to start for Eiffel.
--
Jim Cochrane



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Small Programs written in SmallTalk or Eiffel
Take a look at:

http://brain.cs.uiuc.edu/VisualWorks

for a start.

You can also browse:

http://www.goodstart.com/

Quote:

> comp.lang.java.advocacy is often visited by people using Eiffel and
> specially SmallTalk talking about the benefits of using their language
> of choice.

> Usually they are talking about large projects where the benefits of
> "real" OO languages are most noticeable.

> My questions is: Can you point me to a place where I can download some
> small programs that will give me some feeling about what kind of
> performance (and size of the programs) I can expect from this languages.
> I would also like to see how the GUI created with this languages looks
> like and works.

> The only application written in SmallTalk that I think have used is
> Visual Age For Java. (I was told that was written in SmallTalk - I hope
> somebody can confirm this.)

> Regards,

> Eugene



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Small Programs written in SmallTalk or Eiffel



Quote:
> comp.lang.java.advocacy is often visited by people using Eiffel and
> specially SmallTalk talking about the benefits of using their language
> of choice.

> Usually they are talking about large projects where the benefits of
> "real" OO languages are most noticeable.

> My questions is: Can you point me to a place where I can download some
> small programs that will give me some feeling about what kind of
> performance (and size of the programs) I can expect from this languages.
> I would also like to see how the GUI created with this languages looks
> like and works.

Try downloading, e.g. SmallEiffel /Elj-Win32 (www.elj-com) or ISE's Personal
Eiffel (http://eiffel.com) and run some of the examples to get a feel for
the stuff. When using ISE Eiffel, try compiling using the finalize option
(not just melt).

Eirik Mangseth
Obejct Technology Partners AS, Lysaker, Norway

Quote:

> The only application written in SmallTalk that I think have used is
> Visual Age For Java. (I was told that was written in SmallTalk - I hope
> somebody can confirm this.)

> Regards,

> Eugene



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Small Programs written in SmallTalk or Eiffel
VisualAge for Java was (and still is) written in Smalltalk.

Ian

Quote:

> comp.lang.java.advocacy is often visited by people using Eiffel and
> specially SmallTalk talking about the benefits of using their language
> of choice.

> Usually they are talking about large projects where the benefits of
> "real" OO languages are most noticeable.

> My questions is: Can you point me to a place where I can download some
> small programs that will give me some feeling about what kind of
> performance (and size of the programs) I can expect from this languages.
> I would also like to see how the GUI created with this languages looks
> like and works.

> The only application written in SmallTalk that I think have used is
> Visual Age For Java. (I was told that was written in SmallTalk - I hope
> somebody can confirm this.)

> Regards,

> Eugene



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Small Programs written in SmallTalk or Eiffel

Quote:
>VisualAge for Java was (and still is) written in Smalltalk.

>Ian

.. and you can order a free try-and-buy CD from
http://www.software.ibm.com/ad/smalltalk/. Great stuff.

chris



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Small Programs written in SmallTalk or Eiffel


Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Small Programs written in SmallTalk or Eiffel
I could not find anything there. There was a link that was supposed to
get me to a www browser but it did not work.

So I am yet to find small or medium size executable program written in
Smalltalk.

I played a bit with Squeak and it looks pretty neat but I really want to
find something developed with it - small utility, game or whatever.

When Java was introduced it came along with the HotJava browser that
could really demonstrate that something useful can be developed with the
language.

Smalltalk appears to be language for the programming elite - everybody
is talking about million lines of code plus projects but I am having
hard time finding anything simple and useful developed with it.

I am still willing to assume that Smalltalk is a wonderful programming
environment but the above observation answers for me the question from
the long thread in comp.lang.java.advocacy and comp.lang.smalltalk -
"Why didn't Smalltalk catch on?"

Eugene

P.S. I still hope I am wrong thinking that smalltalk is more hyped(by
the smalltalk evangelists) that even Java. Please prove me wrong - I
would be happy to find something better than Java and I am sure
something eventually will come up.

Quote:

> Take a look at:

> http://brain.cs.uiuc.edu/VisualWorks

> for a start.

> You can also browse:

> http://www.goodstart.com/


> > comp.lang.java.advocacy is often visited by people using Eiffel and
> > specially SmallTalk talking about the benefits of using their language
> > of choice.

> > Usually they are talking about large projects where the benefits of
> > "real" OO languages are most noticeable.

> > My questions is: Can you point me to a place where I can download some
> > small programs that will give me some feeling about what kind of
> > performance (and size of the programs) I can expect from this languages.
> > I would also like to see how the GUI created with this languages looks
> > like and works.

> > The only application written in SmallTalk that I think have used is
> > Visual Age For Java. (I was told that was written in SmallTalk - I hope
> > somebody can confirm this.)

> > Regards,

> > Eugene



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Small Programs written in SmallTalk or Eiffel

: So I am yet to find small or medium size executable program written
: in Smalltalk.

: I played a bit with Squeak and it looks pretty neat but I really
: want to find something developed with it - small utility, game or
: whatever.

: When Java was introduced it came along with the HotJava browser that
: could really demonstrate that something useful can be developed with
: the language.

Squeak comes with a web browser and a mail reader and a class browser
and a de{*filter*} and music stuff and graphics stuff and... all kinds of
stuff. Maybe you could hook up with a Smalltalk enthusiast in your
area to give you a guided tour over lunch?

--



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Small Programs written in SmallTalk or Eiffel

Quote:

> I could not find anything there. There was a link that was supposed to
> get me to a www browser but it did not work.

> So I am yet to find small or medium size executable program written in
> Smalltalk.

Hi Eugene,

All Smalltalk IDEs are written in Smalltalk and some of them are impressive
pieces of software which I'd judge medium sized. You can get non-commercial or
eval copies of most of them, including their sources. If you look e.g. at
VisualWorks NC, you get a lot of optional extra stuff in the small to medium
size range.

regards,
Johannes Link



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Small Programs written in SmallTalk or Eiffel
Eugene,

I think that the reason you are having difficulty with your search for
applications is that, in my experience, there are few "shrink-wrapped"
products out there that are written using Smalltalk. You will find, however,
that there are very many "vertical" applications used by medium to large
size institutions but, for obvious reasons, these sorts of establishments
are reluctant to come forward and advertise their wares to others.

The reasons for this are probably two-fold. However, just in case you are
not interested in my explanation but only in some example apps - there are
some links at the bottom of this message.

I would say that before (around) 1995 the available hardware was not
powerful enough to run snappy Smalltalk applications on all but high end
computers. Shrink-wrap programmers make their money by opening out their
applications to the widest possible market so Smalltalk wouldn't have been
suitable for such use before this date. In addition, Smalltalk applications
have tended to be quite large (i.e. multi-megabyte executables). This would
also have disuaded "component" producers from writing in the language.
Neither of these limitations would have affected the corperate market
overmuch.

Things have changed today, of course. Processors are easily fast enough to
run top notch Smalltalk applications. Indeed, it is my opinion that the
performance of *real* Smalltalk applications has overtaken that of many
similar apps built in C++. Also, as the memory size of the basic computer
has grown to over 32Mb, there doesn't seem much point in whinging about an
application that is 1-2Mb in size. Smalltalk applications have also shrunk
in size too. Smalltalk MT (www.object-connect.com) is capable of generating
tiny executables.

Our company produces Dolphin Smalltalk which is or one of the newer breed of
Smalltalks. Dolphin is capable of producing applications for Microsoft
Windows that are in the 1+ Mb range (I'm not sure when you would class this
as large or small). With Dolphin, the smallest application you can write
will produce approximately one megabyte of executable. However, after that,
as your application grows in complexity the executable size increases very
slowly. I know of quite a a few commercial "vertical" applications written
in Dolphin but, as I said before, these companies tend not to like to expose
what they've done to the outside world (and certainly not to let them
download it).

However, I have found a couple of sites which might be of interest. The
first is a trading system for the Zagreb stock exchange. A description of
the system is at:

http://www.zse.hr/most_features.html

and some screen shots:

http://www.zse.hr/screens.html

If you want to get hold of applications that you can download then you might
like to try one of the following game demos. The author does state that you
really need a graphic card with OpenGL acceleration for these to run at a
reasonable frame rate:

www.creative-computing-inc.com

Anyway, I hope these help you on your quest.

Best regards,

Andy Bower
Object Arts Ltd.
http://www.object-arts.com


Quote:
> I could not find anything there. There was a link that was supposed to
> get me to a www browser but it did not work.

> So I am yet to find small or medium size executable program written in
> Smalltalk.

> I played a bit with Squeak and it looks pretty neat but I really want to
> find something developed with it - small utility, game or whatever.

> When Java was introduced it came along with the HotJava browser that
> could really demonstrate that something useful can be developed with the
> language.

> Smalltalk appears to be language for the programming elite - everybody
> is talking about million lines of code plus projects but I am having
> hard time finding anything simple and useful developed with it.

> I am still willing to assume that Smalltalk is a wonderful programming
> environment but the above observation answers for me the question from
> the long thread in comp.lang.java.advocacy and comp.lang.smalltalk -
> "Why didn't Smalltalk catch on?"

> Eugene

> P.S. I still hope I am wrong thinking that smalltalk is more hyped(by
> the smalltalk evangelists) that even Java. Please prove me wrong - I
> would be happy to find something better than Java and I am sure
> something eventually will come up.


> > Take a look at:

> > http://brain.cs.uiuc.edu/VisualWorks

> > for a start.

> > You can also browse:

> > http://www.goodstart.com/


> > > comp.lang.java.advocacy is often visited by people using Eiffel and
> > > specially SmallTalk talking about the benefits of using their language
> > > of choice.

> > > Usually they are talking about large projects where the benefits of
> > > "real" OO languages are most noticeable.

> > > My questions is: Can you point me to a place where I can download some
> > > small programs that will give me some feeling about what kind of
> > > performance (and size of the programs) I can expect from this
languages.
> > > I would also like to see how the GUI created with this languages looks
> > > like and works.

> > > The only application written in SmallTalk that I think have used is
> > > Visual Age For Java. (I was told that was written in SmallTalk - I
hope
> > > somebody can confirm this.)

> > > Regards,

> > > Eugene



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Small Programs written in SmallTalk or Eiffel
Yes - VisualWorks is written in itself.  For examples of apps written in
VisualWorks, download VisualWorks NC, then load the AdvancedTools.  Examine the
Class Reports tool - to get it running, select in the Launcher

Tools>>Advanved>>Class Reports

Quote:


> > I could not find anything there. There was a link that was supposed to
> > get me to a www browser but it did not work.

> > So I am yet to find small or medium size executable program written in
> > Smalltalk.

> Hi Eugene,

> All Smalltalk IDEs are written in Smalltalk and some of them are impressive
> pieces of software which I'd judge medium sized. You can get non-commercial or
> eval copies of most of them, including their sources. If you look e.g. at
> VisualWorks NC, you get a lot of optional extra stuff in the small to medium
> size range.

> regards,
> Johannes Link



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Small Programs written in SmallTalk or Eiffel
I did find that Squeak have built in browser but it is very very slow. I
have also used VA for Java and it was quite slow with Pentium 200 with
128Meg (But so is JBuider which is written in C++)

I know that you have been interested in Erlang so just to use it as
example - it is language for large telecommunications products but they
have quite a few small games and utilities that allow people to study the
source and get a general feeling about the performance of the language.
So I am looking for things like this done in Smalltalk.

Maybe you are right - I should go to one of those Smalltalk User Group
meetings. There will be one in Toronto very soon.

Regards,

Eugene

Quote:


> : So I am yet to find small or medium size executable program written
> : in Smalltalk.

> : I played a bit with Squeak and it looks pretty neat but I really
> : want to find something developed with it - small utility, game or
> : whatever.

> : When Java was introduced it came along with the HotJava browser that
> : could really demonstrate that something useful can be developed with
> : the language.

> Squeak comes with a web browser and a mail reader and a class browser
> and a de{*filter*} and music stuff and graphics stuff and... all kinds of
> stuff. Maybe you could hook up with a Smalltalk enthusiast in your
> area to give you a guided tour over lunch?

> --




Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Small Programs written in SmallTalk or Eiffel
Hello Johannes,

I am thinking about downloading VisualWorks NC to check it out. I have used VA
for Java that I am told is written in Smalltalk. I found it quite slow on Pentium
200 with 128 Meg. To be fair the same computer runs JBuider (C++ program) also
slow.

Eugene

Quote:

> Hi Eugene,

> All Smalltalk IDEs are written in Smalltalk and some of them are impressive
> pieces of software which I'd judge medium sized. You can get non-commercial or
> eval copies of most of them, including their sources. If you look e.g. at
> VisualWorks NC, you get a lot of optional extra stuff in the small to medium
> size range.

> regards,
> Johannes Link



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Small Programs written in SmallTalk or Eiffel
One of these days I will get  VisualWorks NC but I was looking for shortcut -
somebody that have used it to create some interesting stuff.

Oh well. I will download the software and check the samples that you mentioned.

Eugene

Quote:

> Yes - VisualWorks is written in itself.  For examples of apps written in
> VisualWorks, download VisualWorks NC, then load the AdvancedTools.  Examine the
> Class Reports tool - to get it running, select in the Launcher

> Tools>>Advanved>>Class Reports



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 
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