Yourdan's recent article on SM 
Author Message
 Yourdan's recent article on SM

Has anyone read Ed Yourdan's recent (April 96) article
in Application Development Strategies intitled "The Future of Smalltalk"?
I thought the article would have raised a few eyebrows by now.  

For those who have not read it, he essentially says that Smalltalk's time has come
and gone.  (slight oversimplification here)    Though he thinks it is still possible for
Smalltalk to take a bigger slice of the pie, he just doesn't see it happening.  He
thinks it's more likely that Smalltalk will place 5th or 6th behind VB, Powerbuilder
delphi and C++.  He doesn't like the market consolidating around IBM and ParcPlace.
He sees the recent happenings of Java and Delphi as signs that Smalltalk missed
the boat.   IBM's notoriously slow product development along with their pathetic
marketing efforts have doomed Smalltalk to continued small niche status.   He does
however like the general direction IBM has taken with technical developments of
Visual Age.   He just thinks it's too little too late.  

Does anyone have any opinions on this matter one way or the other?

Regards,
Lou  (my opinions don't really matter to anyone anyway)    



Tue, 29 Sep 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Yourdan's recent article on SM
: Has anyone read Ed Yourdan's recent (April 96) article
: in Application Development Strategies intitled "The Future of Smalltalk"?
: I thought the article would have raised a few eyebrows by now.  

: For those who have not read it, he essentially says that Smalltalk's time
: has come and gone.

If you live by Ed Yourdon, you die by Ed Yourdon.

: Does anyone have any opinions on this matter one way or the other?

Smalltalk's time is now. The question is where will it be in five years
and will we have a decent replacement if its time has passed.

--



Tue, 29 Sep 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Yourdan's recent article on SM
Quote:

> Has anyone read Ed Yourdan's recent (April 96) article
> in Application Development Strategies intitled "The Future of Smalltalk"?
> I thought the article would have raised a few eyebrows by now.

> Does anyone have any opinions on this matter one way or the other?
>    The only thing worse than being talked about is *not* being

talked about.

        -Hal
--
When the going gets strange,
        the strange ask for royalties

Polymorphic Software, Inc.

http://www.polymorphicSoftware.com



Tue, 29 Sep 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Yourdan's recent article on SM

Quote:
>If you live by Ed Yourdon, you die by Ed Yourdon.
>Smalltalk's time is now. The question is where will it be in five years
>and will we have a decent replacement if its time has passed.

Patrick, I like your paraphrase from "The Ten Commandments".   I think what Ed
was trying to say is that Smalltalk will not grow dramitcally over the next 5 years
and it may be run over by Delphi and Java.  (I don't mind being run over by Delphi
personally; I hope it takes off).    That assumption means developers and MIS
managers may decide not to go with Smalltalk, which then hastens it demise.  

We need to stop the fragmentation in this industry of so many development languages.
Most people want a standard language, like COBOL was "THE" language in the old
days (for business apps).  It made it easier for both employers and employees.
It would have been nice if Smalltalk was "THE" one.  Ed thinks it won't be. I sadly
have to agree with him. God help us if either VB or C++ is "THE" one.
(You could say that VB and C++ are "THE" ones because they are pervasive,
but neither is appropriate for business applications; VB doesn't scale and
C++ is too cryptic).  

I would like to see Delphi take over.  Also, Forte is an up and comer - more
fragmentation.      :)            

Regards,
Lou  (my opinions don't really matter anyway)  



Wed, 30 Sep 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Yourdan's recent article on SM
Ed makes a living telling everyone that will listen how to design systems.
I learned his methodologies in college and have follwed since. One thing
most people don't realize is that Ed has not worked on a development
project (that I know of) in years. I don't think that he has more that a
very cursory experience with any of the tools that he talks about. Like
most speakers I think he is right some times and wroung most of the time.
When it comes to Smalltalk going away all I have to say is that it wont
happen unless the venders give up and I think you would just see new tool
providers filling the void. C++ is good for somethings but it is just
becoming to big. It tries to be everytime to everyone and ends up leaving
a bad taste in my mouth. VB and PowerBuild just do not hold up on medium
to large projects and don't think about multi-tierd or fully distributed
projects or projects with more that 1 to 3 programmers. Java is to new and
there are no tools as of yet maybe in 2 years we will see, until then it
is a great tool for Inter/Intranet development. Smalltalk holds it's own
for now and I still don't see any development environment replacing it.

Quote:

> Has anyone read Ed Yourdan's recent (April 96) article
> in Application Development Strategies intitled "The Future of Smalltalk"?
> I thought the article would have raised a few eyebrows by now.  

> For those who have not read it, he essentially says that Smalltalk's
time has come
> and gone.  (slight oversimplification here)    Though he thinks it is
still possible for
> Smalltalk to take a bigger slice of the pie, he just doesn't see it
happening.  He
> thinks it's more likely that Smalltalk will place 5th or 6th behind VB,
Powerbuilder
> Delphi and C++.  He doesn't like the market consolidating around IBM and
ParcPlace.
> He sees the recent happenings of Java and Delphi as signs that Smalltalk
missed
> the boat.   IBM's notoriously slow product development along with their
pathetic
> marketing efforts have doomed Smalltalk to continued small niche
status.   He does
> however like the general direction IBM has taken with technical
developments of
> Visual Age.   He just thinks it's too little too late.  

> Does anyone have any opinions on this matter one way or the other?

> Regards,
> Lou  (my opinions don't really matter to anyone anyway)



Wed, 30 Sep 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Yourdan's recent article on SM

Quote:

>We need to stop the fragmentation in this industry
>of so many development languages.

 If all the "forecaster" would look a little more into the
 future, they would recognize, that the language is not so
 important. It's the framework of the systems we're using.

 NextStep is a very good example for a system, I hope we'll see
 many more in the future. IBM with SOM is another example, MS
 with OLE perhaps another candidate.

 Marten



Fri, 02 Oct 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Yourdan's recent article on SM
: Has anyone read Ed Yourdan's recent (April 96) article
: in Application Development Strategies intitled "The Future of Smalltalk"?
: I thought the article would have raised a few eyebrows by now.  

I find Ed Yourdan quite easy to dismiss.  Just have a look at "The Decline
and Fall of the American Programmer" and think about the industry today.
I don't think his predictions quite match up.

Actually, I think he just likes to make provocative statements in an effort
to promote his speaking fees.  I would be interested to learn when he last
coded anything of size, or even lead a project.

I just skipped over the article.  Should smalltalk cease to be commercially
viable, I'll be coding in whatever pays the bills.  These "my language is
better and your going to hell without it" articles are only noise.

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

        CK6! INC * P.O. Box 2269, Ramona, CA. 92065 * (619) 789-8106
                     http://www.electriciti.com/~ck6inc/



Sat, 03 Oct 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Yourdan's recent article on SM

writes:

Quote:
>I find Ed Yourdan quite easy to dismiss.  Just have a look at "The Decline
>and Fall of the American Programmer" and think about the industry today.
>I don't think his predictions quite match up.

Four years after THAT book, he has a new one saying the opposite. (The
Rise of the American Programmer, or some such.)

I've read about 30 pages. Very poorly done, lousie graphs, tables,
thinking. But it'll probably make him a lot of money.

He does mention Smalltalk and VisualAge a number of places in passing, as
if they were the great new things that'll save mankind.

Oh, yes, he has a new great thing that is one of the saviors of the
American Programmer. It's detailedin a chapter I've not read, but it was
previewed in one I have:

   Good-enough Programming

That is producing programs with bugs, but not really bad ones. Programs
that work Good Enough to use. It's going to save us. FOrget quality. Just
be Good Enough...

I need a book like this sometimes to take my frustrations out upon.

Dave

"If you're not making waves, you're not rowing."
_____________________________________________________
David N. Smith
IBM T J Watson Research Center, Hawthorne, NY



Home Page: http://www.azc.com/client/dnsmith/
_____________________________________________________
Any opinions or recommendations are those
of the author and not of his employer.



Sun, 04 Oct 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Yourdan's recent article on SM

snip --

Quote:

>I need a book like this sometimes to take my frustrations out upon.

>Dave

>"If you're not making waves, you're not rowing."
>_____________________________________________________
>David N. Smith
>IBM T J Watson Research Center, Hawthorne, NY



>Home Page: http://www.azc.com/client/dnsmith/
>_____________________________________________________
>Any opinions or recommendations are those
>of the author and not of his employer.

Dave,

Are you saying that Ed Yourdan is "making waves" without "rowing"

;-)

Ronny

---------------------------------

Mark Winter & Assoc.
<instance of standard disclaimer>
----------------------------------



Mon, 05 Oct 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Yourdan's recent article on SM

Quote:
>Oh, yes, he has a new great thing that is one of the saviors of the
>American Programmer. It's detailedin a chapter I've not read, but it was
>previewed in one I have:
>   Good-enough Programming
>That is producing programs with bugs, but not really bad ones. Programs
>that work Good Enough to use. It's going to save us. FOrget quality. Just
>be Good Enough...

If it's good enough for Microsoft...
-dms


Mon, 05 Oct 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Yourdan's recent article on SM

Quote:
> >   Good-enough Programming

> >That is producing programs with bugs, but not really bad ones. Programs
> >that work Good Enough to use. It's going to save us. FOrget quality. Just
> >be Good Enough...

> If it's good enough for Microsoft...

Sure, Microsoft sets the de facto standards, but,

I've upped my standards, so, up yours.  :-)

-- Mike Klein



Mon, 05 Oct 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Yourdan's recent article on SM

Quote:


>: Has anyone read Ed Yourdan's recent (April 96) article
>: in Application Development Strategies intitled "The Future of Smalltalk"?
>: I thought the article would have raised a few eyebrows by now.  
>I find Ed Yourdan quite easy to dismiss.  Just have a look at "The Decline
>and Fall of the American Programmer" and think about the industry today.
>I don't think his predictions quite match up.

 But in general his overall statements (at least in his book
 you mentioned) seems for me pretty correct. Perhaps the
 timetable is not right, but the effects can be seen.

 Marten



Tue, 06 Oct 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Yourdan's recent article on SM

Quote:

> >Oh, yes, he has a new great thing that is one of the saviors of the
> >American Programmer. It's detailedin a chapter I've not read, but it was
> >previewed in one I have:

> >   Good-enough Programming

> >That is producing programs with bugs, but not really bad ones. Programs
> >that work Good Enough to use. It's going to save us. FOrget quality. Just
> >be Good Enough...

> If it's good enough for Microsoft...
> -dms

Actually, it is good enough for just about anybody.  :-(   At
least, I'm not aware of any software companies selling products
with zero errors.  (The space shuttle software may be close,
but it doesn't have a very large market :-).

On the other hand, why should companies do this?  Customers are
_not_ willing to pay double or triple prices for quality software.
I remember reading that a number of software companies that won
TQM awards (or something like that - anyone know for sure?)
subsequently went bankrupt.  How many people here would pay
$20,000 for an error-free version of smalltalk???  (Maybe a few
large - or smart - companies, but my experience has been that
the cheapest product will most likely win.  I once recommended
ParcPlace over Digitalk, and...  :-(  )

While I'm on the band-wagon, the same thing applies to feature
bloat (also known here as image bloat  :-).  Lots of people
complain about it, but any company actually trying to do some-
thing about it would quickly go broke (IMHO).

  Sigh...
  Alan
    (standard disclaimer)



Tue, 06 Oct 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Yourdan's recent article on SM

: >: Has anyone read Ed Yourdan's recent (April 96) article
: >: in Application Development Strategies intitled "The Future of Smalltalk"?
: >: I thought the article would have raised a few eyebrows by now.  

: >I find Ed Yourdan quite easy to dismiss.  Just have a look at "The Decline
: >and Fall of the American Programmer" and think about the industry today.
: >I don't think his predictions quite match up.

:  But in general his overall statements (at least in his book
:  you mentioned) seems for me pretty correct. Perhaps the
:  timetable is not right, but the effects can be seen.

I'm sorry to hear that.  Maybe it's time for me to sign up to learn
welding or diesel repair.  Goodbye, cruel world.  I bet on the wrong
career.  (And I sure feel sorry for the new CS graduates this May).
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

        CK6! INC * P.O. Box 2269, Ramona, CA. 92065 * (619) 789-8106
                     http://www.electriciti.com/~ck6inc/



Tue, 06 Oct 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Yourdan's recent article on SM

Quote:
>> >   Good-enough Programming

>> >That is producing programs with bugs, but not really bad ones. Programs
>> >that work Good Enough to use. It's going to save us. FOrget quality. Just
>> >be Good Enough...

>> If it's good enough for Microsoft...

>Sure, Microsoft sets the de facto standards, but,

>I've upped my standards, so, up yours.  :-)

>-- Mike Klein


Not meaning to be critical of you here; just posting an opinion to this thread:

I heard an interesting thing from a consultant who is the project leader of our team to evaluate the development tools.  He said that he knows for a fact that many NEXT salespeople are leaving NEXT and going to Forte.  We had invited NEXT to bid on our project and they declinded, saying that they did not have the resources to support a site visit for a demo, which we are insisting on.   Our manager said that he knew a few of those salespeople and they were all leaving to go to Forte.  He was sad to see it, because he really likes NEXTSTEP; however it's not a viable solution for us, while Forte has a good chance of being selected.  

I have to make one comment regarding a statement that Smalltalk will replace COBOL.  I know that is the conventional wisdom, but I'm not convinced it will fly.  Based on speaking with many people at the SIGS Smalltalk Solutions 96 conference back in March, along with my own experience, I think it's much harder for COBOL folks to learn Smalltalk then the conventional wisdom suggests.  Not only Smalltalk itself, but object thinking in general is a very different paradigm from procedural thinking.  I have seen the difficulty in making the transition first hand and I don't think everyone can do it.  Heck, I barely did it.  

The fact that IBM seems to be pushing Smalltalk is good and bad.  If they push it like they did OS/2, well , , ,         In fact, I am sensing some of the same defensivness in the Smalltalk usergroup as in the OS/2 groups.  I don't think it's a good think to compare Smalltalk with OS/2's history.   :)



Wed, 07 Oct 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 
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