Smalltalk cross-compiler for Xbox? 
Author Message
 Smalltalk cross-compiler for Xbox?

Hey folks,

Anyone know of a Smalltalk cross-compiler for the MS Xbox?  

Thanks.

--
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 Jan Theodore Galkowski      607-754-1115        The Smalltalk Idiom

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   Orthoplex, database, Smalltalk, C, PalmOS, and PERL development
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 Ted Nelson's ZigZag?   "It may well change your life."
          See http://www.*-*-*.com/
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Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:49:22 GMT  
 Smalltalk cross-compiler for Xbox?
Isn't XBox an intel box running a hidden Windows?  If so, any Windows
compliant ST ought to work there



Quote:
>Hey folks,

>Anyone know of a Smalltalk cross-compiler for the MS Xbox?  =

>Thanks.

>-- =

>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jan Theodore Galkowski      607-754-1115        The Smalltalk Idiom

>*********************************************************************
>   Orthoplex, database, Smalltalk, C, PalmOS, and PERL development
>*********************************************************************
> Ted Nelson's ZigZag=99   "It may well change your life."
>          See http://www.xanadu.net/zigzag/.
>*********************************************************************

--
James A. Robertson
Product Manager (Smalltalk), Cincom

<Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>


Thu, 11 Nov 2004 07:37:10 GMT  
 Smalltalk cross-compiler for Xbox?
Jan,

Having been on the XBox program and trying to get Smalltalk MT to be able to
run on it I can tell you that it is not at all easy.

The Windows version running on the XBox has several changed Win32APIs
because it does not support virtual memory. It also does not support DLLs.
This means that your application is statically linked with the Windows
operating system (think mainframe here).

This was our sticking point because we would be required to make Smalltalk
MT work with static libraries (this is where the library code is actually
placed in your application code vs a DLL where you call out to external
code). The effort to write a complete C/C++ style linker in Smalltalk MT
made this unrealistic.

The resulting 'application' contains no external references (i.e. all
address are resolved). When you load an XBox game (note that you cannot read
the XBOX CD in a normal PC CDROM drive), the entire application (XBox
Windows containing your code as well) is loaded into memory.

Only the really big development companies (just a handful) actually managed
to deploy any games. The security surrounding how to actually get a game
going was so tight that the vast majority of us were locked out.

Hopefully XBox2 (if there ever is one) will be open enough to allow others
to participate.

We were very disappointed with the direction MS took on this one.

So you see that a cross-compiler is just not possible for this environment
without the XBOX Windows version which is not publically available.

Dave



Fri, 12 Nov 2004 02:40:39 GMT  
 Smalltalk cross-compiler for Xbox?
I can only contribute from a theoretical point of view:

1.) porting a development (or runtime) environment is something
different than a cross compiler. The cross compiler could also produce C
or something else (Java ?!?) that is hopefully supported on the box.

2.) would it be an option to use Squeak ?

kr
G.

Quote:

> Jan,

> Having been on the XBox program and trying to get Smalltalk MT to be able to
> run on it I can tell you that it is not at all easy.

> The Windows version running on the XBox has several changed Win32APIs
> because it does not support virtual memory. It also does not support DLLs.
> This means that your application is statically linked with the Windows
> operating system (think mainframe here).

> This was our sticking point because we would be required to make Smalltalk
> MT work with static libraries (this is where the library code is actually
> placed in your application code vs a DLL where you call out to external
> code). The effort to write a complete C/C++ style linker in Smalltalk MT
> made this unrealistic.

> The resulting 'application' contains no external references (i.e. all
> address are resolved). When you load an XBox game (note that you cannot read
> the XBOX CD in a normal PC CDROM drive), the entire application (XBox
> Windows containing your code as well) is loaded into memory.

> Only the really big development companies (just a handful) actually managed
> to deploy any games. The security surrounding how to actually get a game
> going was so tight that the vast majority of us were locked out.

> Hopefully XBox2 (if there ever is one) will be open enough to allow others
> to participate.

> We were very disappointed with the direction MS took on this one.

> So you see that a cross-compiler is just not possible for this environment
> without the XBOX Windows version which is not publically available.

> Dave



Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:32:15 GMT  
 Smalltalk cross-compiler for Xbox?
IMHO X-Box static linking is there to lock out any hacks that could execute
arbitrary applications (those that have not been approved). Console vendors
derive their revenue from selling software so they want to control the
market. And right now the console market is restricted to the major game
editors.

So the technical issue is just a symptom of the licensing policy; and as
long as the latter doesn't change there is no reason to invest time in the
former.

- Tarik Kerroum


Quote:
> I can only contribute from a theoretical point of view:

> 1.) porting a development (or runtime) environment is something
> different than a cross compiler. The cross compiler could also produce C
> or something else (Java ?!?) that is hopefully supported on the box.

> 2.) would it be an option to use Squeak ?

> kr
> G.


> > Jan,

> > Having been on the XBox program and trying to get Smalltalk MT to be
able to
> > run on it I can tell you that it is not at all easy.

> > The Windows version running on the XBox has several changed Win32APIs
> > because it does not support virtual memory. It also does not support
DLLs.
> > This means that your application is statically linked with the Windows
> > operating system (think mainframe here).

> > This was our sticking point because we would be required to make
Smalltalk
> > MT work with static libraries (this is where the library code is
actually
> > placed in your application code vs a DLL where you call out to external
> > code). The effort to write a complete C/C++ style linker in Smalltalk MT
> > made this unrealistic.

> > The resulting 'application' contains no external references (i.e. all
> > address are resolved). When you load an XBox game (note that you cannot
read
> > the XBOX CD in a normal PC CDROM drive), the entire application (XBox
> > Windows containing your code as well) is loaded into memory.

> > Only the really big development companies (just a handful) actually
managed
> > to deploy any games. The security surrounding how to actually get a game
> > going was so tight that the vast majority of us were locked out.

> > Hopefully XBox2 (if there ever is one) will be open enough to allow
others
> > to participate.

> > We were very disappointed with the direction MS took on this one.

> > So you see that a cross-compiler is just not possible for this
environment
> > without the XBOX Windows version which is not publically available.

> > Dave



Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:08:01 GMT  
 
 [ 5 post ] 

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