Smalltalk, Smalltalk cross-compiler for Xbox?

Smalltalk cross-compiler for Xbox?

Author	Message
Jan Theodore Galkowsk #1 / 5	Smalltalk cross-compiler for Xbox? Hey folks, Anyone know of a Smalltalk cross-compiler for the MS Xbox? Thanks. -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jan Theodore Galkowski 607-754-1115 The Smalltalk Idiom ******************************************************************* Orthoplex, database, Smalltalk, C, PalmOS, and PERL development ******************************************************************* Ted Nelson's ZigZag? "It may well change your life." See http://www.--.com/ ********************************************************************
Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:49:22 GMT

jaro.. #2 / 5	Smalltalk cross-compiler for Xbox? Isn't XBox an intel box running a hidden Windows? If so, any Windows compliant ST ought to work there Quote: >Hey folks, >Anyone know of a Smalltalk cross-compiler for the MS Xbox? = >Thanks. >-- = >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jan Theodore Galkowski 607-754-1115 The Smalltalk Idiom >******************************************************************* > Orthoplex, database, Smalltalk, C, PalmOS, and PERL development >***************************************************************** > Ted Nelson's ZigZag=99 "It may well change your life." > See http://www.xanadu.net/zigzag/. >******************************************************************* -- James A. Robertson Product Manager (Smalltalk), Cincom <Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
Thu, 11 Nov 2004 07:37:10 GMT

D #3 / 5	Smalltalk cross-compiler for Xbox? Jan, Having been on the XBox program and trying to get Smalltalk MT to be able to run on it I can tell you that it is not at all easy. The Windows version running on the XBox has several changed Win32APIs because it does not support virtual memory. It also does not support DLLs. This means that your application is statically linked with the Windows operating system (think mainframe here). This was our sticking point because we would be required to make Smalltalk MT work with static libraries (this is where the library code is actually placed in your application code vs a DLL where you call out to external code). The effort to write a complete C/C++ style linker in Smalltalk MT made this unrealistic. The resulting 'application' contains no external references (i.e. all address are resolved). When you load an XBox game (note that you cannot read the XBOX CD in a normal PC CDROM drive), the entire application (XBox Windows containing your code as well) is loaded into memory. Only the really big development companies (just a handful) actually managed to deploy any games. The security surrounding how to actually get a game going was so tight that the vast majority of us were locked out. Hopefully XBox2 (if there ever is one) will be open enough to allow others to participate. We were very disappointed with the direction MS took on this one. So you see that a cross-compiler is just not possible for this environment without the XBOX Windows version which is not publically available. Dave
Fri, 12 Nov 2004 02:40:39 GMT

Gerald Zinck #4 / 5	Smalltalk cross-compiler for Xbox? I can only contribute from a theoretical point of view: 1.) porting a development (or runtime) environment is something different than a cross compiler. The cross compiler could also produce C or something else (Java ?!?) that is hopefully supported on the box. 2.) would it be an option to use Squeak ? kr G. Quote: > Jan, > Having been on the XBox program and trying to get Smalltalk MT to be able to > run on it I can tell you that it is not at all easy. > The Windows version running on the XBox has several changed Win32APIs > because it does not support virtual memory. It also does not support DLLs. > This means that your application is statically linked with the Windows > operating system (think mainframe here). > This was our sticking point because we would be required to make Smalltalk > MT work with static libraries (this is where the library code is actually > placed in your application code vs a DLL where you call out to external > code). The effort to write a complete C/C++ style linker in Smalltalk MT > made this unrealistic. > The resulting 'application' contains no external references (i.e. all > address are resolved). When you load an XBox game (note that you cannot read > the XBOX CD in a normal PC CDROM drive), the entire application (XBox > Windows containing your code as well) is loaded into memory. > Only the really big development companies (just a handful) actually managed > to deploy any games. The security surrounding how to actually get a game > going was so tight that the vast majority of us were locked out. > Hopefully XBox2 (if there ever is one) will be open enough to allow others > to participate. > We were very disappointed with the direction MS took on this one. > So you see that a cross-compiler is just not possible for this environment > without the XBOX Windows version which is not publically available. > Dave
Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:32:15 GMT

Tarik Kerrou #5 / 5	Smalltalk cross-compiler for Xbox? IMHO X-Box static linking is there to lock out any hacks that could execute arbitrary applications (those that have not been approved). Console vendors derive their revenue from selling software so they want to control the market. And right now the console market is restricted to the major game editors. So the technical issue is just a symptom of the licensing policy; and as long as the latter doesn't change there is no reason to invest time in the former. - Tarik Kerroum Quote: > I can only contribute from a theoretical point of view: > 1.) porting a development (or runtime) environment is something > different than a cross compiler. The cross compiler could also produce C > or something else (Java ?!?) that is hopefully supported on the box. > 2.) would it be an option to use Squeak ? > kr > G. > > Jan, > > Having been on the XBox program and trying to get Smalltalk MT to be able to > > run on it I can tell you that it is not at all easy. > > The Windows version running on the XBox has several changed Win32APIs > > because it does not support virtual memory. It also does not support DLLs. > > This means that your application is statically linked with the Windows > > operating system (think mainframe here). > > This was our sticking point because we would be required to make Smalltalk > > MT work with static libraries (this is where the library code is actually > > placed in your application code vs a DLL where you call out to external > > code). The effort to write a complete C/C++ style linker in Smalltalk MT > > made this unrealistic. > > The resulting 'application' contains no external references (i.e. all > > address are resolved). When you load an XBox game (note that you cannot read > > the XBOX CD in a normal PC CDROM drive), the entire application (XBox > > Windows containing your code as well) is loaded into memory. > > Only the really big development companies (just a handful) actually managed > > to deploy any games. The security surrounding how to actually get a game > > going was so tight that the vast majority of us were locked out. > > Hopefully XBox2 (if there ever is one) will be open enough to allow others > > to participate. > > We were very disappointed with the direction MS took on this one. > > So you see that a cross-compiler is just not possible for this environment > > without the XBOX Windows version which is not publically available. > > Dave
Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:08:01 GMT

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