Refactoring Browser 
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 Refactoring Browser

Hi all.

I have a pretty simple question. What is the latest Refactoring
Browser version that is best suitable for using with VWNC5i4 and where
can I download it?

Thanks

Smalltalkstudent



Mon, 07 Feb 2005 02:00:21 GMT  
 Refactoring Browser
available for VW 7, which should be available for NC download in a few
weeks



Quote:
>Hi all.

>I have a pretty simple question. What is the latest Refactoring
>Browser version that is best suitable for using with VWNC5i4 and where
>can I download it?

>Thanks

>smalltalkstudent



Mon, 07 Feb 2005 02:18:54 GMT  
 Refactoring Browser

Quote:
> available for VW 7, which should be available for NC download in a few
> weeks

Few weeks? Wow. I know many people have been waiting for this new release
for quite a while now and last I heard was that its mostly a matter of
getting the space on the ftp server. What is holding it up now?

-Boris



Mon, 07 Feb 2005 03:35:28 GMT  
 Refactoring Browser

Quote:
> [...] VW 7, which should be available for NC download in a few weeks

A few weeks?  More then five weeks have passed since the commercial version
has been released, and it will still take a few weeks to make the NC version
available?!

I must say that I am very disappointed about this.

It seems that the non-commercial users are of no value anymore.  My
impression was that the NC version was very helpful in generating new
interest in Smalltalk in general and VisualWorks in particular (it certainly
did for me, even though I don't have the chance to use it professionally).
And a lot of the Camp Smalltalk activity might not have happened without the
availability of VWNC, too.

Is Cincom hoping to sell more licenses of VW by delaying the release of VWNC
or why is it delayed?

(Sorry about the rant)

Andreas



Mon, 07 Feb 2005 04:35:08 GMT  
 Refactoring Browser
On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:35:28 -0700, "Boris Popov"

Quote:


>> available for VW 7, which should be available for NC download in a few
>> weeks

>Few weeks? Wow. I know many people have been waiting for this new release
>for quite a while now and last I heard was that its mostly a matter of
>getting the space on the ftp server. What is holding it up now?

It's mainly a matter of getting the new NC download site up.  We are
in the process of building a general login facility (which will
eventually be shared with the online selling we are building).  The
download will be part of the new site.  The web work is the holdup.
Quote:
>-Boris



Mon, 07 Feb 2005 05:28:04 GMT  
 Refactoring Browser
Please send such comments to our marketing people -

On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:35:08 +0200, "Andreas Timmermann"

Quote:

>> [...] VW 7, which should be available for NC download in a few weeks

>A few weeks?  More then five weeks have passed since the commercial version
>has been released, and it will still take a few weeks to make the NC version
>available?!

>I must say that I am very disappointed about this.

>It seems that the non-commercial users are of no value anymore.  My
>impression was that the NC version was very helpful in generating new
>interest in Smalltalk in general and VisualWorks in particular (it certainly
>did for me, even though I don't have the chance to use it professionally).
>And a lot of the Camp Smalltalk activity might not have happened without the
>availability of VWNC, too.

>Is Cincom hoping to sell more licenses of VW by delaying the release of VWNC
>or why is it delayed?

>(Sorry about the rant)

>Andreas



Mon, 07 Feb 2005 05:28:40 GMT  
 Refactoring Browser

Quote:

> > [...] VW 7, which should be available for NC download in a few weeks

> A few weeks?  More then five weeks have passed since the commercial version
> has been released, and it will still take a few weeks to make the NC version
> available?!

C'est la vie with big slow corps.

Quote:
> I must say that I am very disappointed about this.

I am as well, but only because I'm dying to play with the 7.

Quote:
> It seems that the non-commercial users are of no value anymore.

Oh bah. C'mon, you're translating personal disappointment into a
{*filter*} theory. I'm disappointed that I'm not playing with a VW7 right
now, but not so much that I'd go through the trouble of calling up Cincom
to see if I can get one on disc rather than by download. Waiting's fine.

Quote:
>  My
> impression was that the NC version was very helpful in generating new
> interest in Smalltalk in general and VisualWorks in particular (it certainly
> did for me, even though I don't have the chance to use it professionally).

And all the past NC versions are still available, and the future one is
coming, if slowly. How are the NC users of no value on this scenario? (Not
that the commercial release was delayed too! Of course, that seemed more
engineering issues than internal procedural, but still.)

Given that it *is*, in part, an act of generosity, I don't feel like I am
right not snap my fingers and say "hurry up!"

(though i was a bit puckish in one post where i offered to buy a hard
drive for them...but that was a *joke*!)

Quote:
> And a lot of the Camp Smalltalk activity might not have happened without the
> availability of VWNC, too.

Cincom's done pretty good by the genereal Smalltalk community. Aside from
VWNC, and the bits they've open sourced, they sponsered CSt2.

Quote:
> Is Cincom hoping to sell more licenses of VW by delaying the release of VWNC

Bah. C'mon. If VWNC were *in fact* cannabalizing their sales, they prolly
*should* delay or eliminate it. The market is tough for tools!

I don't believe it's the case and i'd be very very very surprised if they
thought otherwise.

Quote:
> or why is it delayed?

Cincom is slow, even when the matter seems rather trivial. Maybe the
vice-president in charge of Slowing Things Down is bucking for a
promotion...who knows?

Quote:
> (Sorry about the rant)

While that anticipatiion tends to drive one to distraction (and hence to
USENET) is understandable, it's probably wiser to relax, and it's
certainly politer to chill (or, at least, be humorous about it).

I hope it does make it out before the ICFP programming contest and folks
form a VWNC7 team to compete (i'll prolly be on a Common Lisp team this
year, though I'd kibbitz on a Smalltalk team).

Cheers,
Bijan Parsia.



Mon, 07 Feb 2005 05:35:58 GMT  
 Refactoring Browser

Quote:
> > I must say that I am very disappointed about this.
> I am as well, but only because I'm dying to play with the 7.

I hate it when they post on c.l.s about how cool it is! :-)

Quote:
> > It seems that the non-commercial users are of no value anymore.

> Oh bah. C'mon, you're translating personal disappointment into a
> {*filter*} theory. I'm disappointed that I'm not playing with a VW7 right
> now, but not so much that I'd go through the trouble of calling up Cincom
> to see if I can get one on disc rather than by download. Waiting's fine.

I must admit that I am guilty of exaggerating a bit, point taken.

But I *do* wonder why it is so difficult to make it available to the general
public.  The registration process for the previous versions worked well, so
why can't they offer it this time?

Quote:
> And all the past NC versions are still available, and the future one is
> coming, if slowly. How are the NC users of no value on this scenario?
> Given that it *is*, in part, an act of generosity, I don't feel like I am
> right not snap my fingers and say "hurry up!"

Oh, I did say that I am not a paying customer, I am not snapping my fingers.
And I don't expect the Smalltalk vendors to deliver their product for free.
We're not in c.l.l, are we? :-)

Quote:
> I hope it does make it out before the ICFP programming contest and folks
> form a VWNC7 team to compete (i'll prolly be on a Common Lisp team this
> year, though I'd kibbitz on a Smalltalk team).


happen the next weekend, though I won't attend this year.  I remember last
year in Essen when I was very e{*filter*}d to see VW5i.4 and a beta version of
the Refactoring Browser.  I'm sure there'll be lots of people asking about
VW7 this year! :-)

Cheers,
Andreas



Mon, 07 Feb 2005 06:20:24 GMT  
 Refactoring Browser
<snip>

Quote:

>But I *do* wonder why it is so difficult to make it available to the general
>public.  The registration process for the previous versions worked well, so
>why can't they offer it this time?

Basically, the registration page was something that could be bypassed,
and our logs showed that most of the downloads were doing that -0
i.e., not filling in the form at all and just downloading.  

So marketing (rightly, I think) was not happy with this, and wanted to
make changes that would make sure that all NC users went through the
registration form at least once.  

What we will end up with is a community site where you login and get
access to the NC - possibly more as time goes by - and eventually, the
online sales site.  The NC download will require very little data
entry, while the online sales part will (obviously) require more.

In any case, that's the main hold up - we were waiting on a machine,
and for our always efficient IT folks to get the the new box online
for us.  

Quote:
>> And all the past NC versions are still available, and the future one is
>> coming, if slowly. How are the NC users of no value on this scenario?
>> Given that it *is*, in part, an act of generosity, I don't feel like I am
>> right not snap my fingers and say "hurry up!"

>Oh, I did say that I am not a paying customer, I am not snapping my fingers.
>And I don't expect the Smalltalk vendors to deliver their product for free.
>We're not in c.l.l, are we? :-)

>> I hope it does make it out before the ICFP programming contest and folks
>> form a VWNC7 team to compete (i'll prolly be on a Common Lisp team this
>> year, though I'd kibbitz on a Smalltalk team).


>happen the next weekend, though I won't attend this year.  I remember last
>year in Essen when I was very e{*filter*}d to see VW5i.4 and a beta version of
>the Refactoring Browser.  I'm sure there'll be lots of people asking about
>VW7 this year! :-)

>Cheers,
>Andreas



Mon, 07 Feb 2005 06:33:00 GMT  
 Refactoring Browser
On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:33:00 GMT, James A. Robertson

Quote:

>Basically, the registration page was something that could be bypassed,
>and our logs showed that most of the downloads were doing that -0
>i.e., not filling in the form at all and just downloading.  

There are several products like this. The ones I have in mind are
OminORb and it's variant pieces. You go to download and you register
like three times before you get fed up and just search for the pages
beyond the registratin page.

VW is a *big* download. Has anyone considered the high percantage of
people bypassing registration are doing so to for one reason or
another resume a download?

After all you are getting something for free and what you are being
asked is so trivial.



Mon, 07 Feb 2005 07:24:11 GMT  
 Refactoring Browser


Quote:
> On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:35:28 -0700, "Boris Popov"


>>> available for VW 7, which should be available for NC download in a few
>>> weeks

>>Few weeks? Wow. I know many people have been waiting for this new release
>>for quite a while now and last I heard was that its mostly a matter of
>>getting the space on the ftp server. What is holding it up now?

> It's mainly a matter of getting the new NC download site up.  We are
> in the process of building a general login facility (which will
> eventually be shared with the online selling we are building).  The
> download will be part of the new site.  The web work is the holdup.

Well, maybe it will make a good Christmas present.

--
Terry
===========================================================
Terry Raymond       Smalltalk Professional Debug Package
Crafted Smalltalk   *Breakpoints* and *Watchpoints* for
80 Lazywood Ln.                  VW and ENVY/Developer
Tiverton, RI  02878

http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com
===========================================================



Mon, 07 Feb 2005 09:11:35 GMT  
 Refactoring Browser


Quote:
>> [...] VW 7, which should be available for NC download in a few weeks

> A few weeks?  More then five weeks have passed since the commercial
> version has been released, and it will still take a few weeks to make
> the NC version available?!

> I must say that I am very disappointed about this.

> It seems that the non-commercial users are of no value anymore.  My
> impression was that the NC version was very helpful in generating new
> interest in Smalltalk in general and VisualWorks in particular (it
> certainly did for me, even though I don't have the chance to use it
> professionally). And a lot of the Camp Smalltalk activity might not
> have happened without the availability of VWNC, too.

> Is Cincom hoping to sell more licenses of VW by delaying the release of
> VWNC or why is it delayed?

I think we are seeing the assimilation of VW
by Cincom.

--
Terry
===========================================================
Terry Raymond       Smalltalk Professional Debug Package
Crafted Smalltalk   *Breakpoints* and *Watchpoints* for
80 Lazywood Ln.                  VW and ENVY/Developer
Tiverton, RI  02878

http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com
===========================================================



Mon, 07 Feb 2005 09:12:26 GMT  
 Refactoring Browser
usage of cookies on our part will likely allow for avoidance of the
login page as well - so long as you allow cookies on your end.

On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 23:24:11 GMT, Thaddeus L Olczyk

Quote:

>On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:33:00 GMT, James A. Robertson

>>Basically, the registration page was something that could be bypassed,
>>and our logs showed that most of the downloads were doing that -0
>>i.e., not filling in the form at all and just downloading.  

>There are several products like this. The ones I have in mind are
>OminORb and it's variant pieces. You go to download and you register
>like three times before you get fed up and just search for the pages
>beyond the registratin page.

>VW is a *big* download. Has anyone considered the high percantage of
>people bypassing registration are doing so to for one reason or
>another resume a download?

>After all you are getting something for free and what you are being
>asked is so trivial.



Mon, 07 Feb 2005 08:55:30 GMT  
 Refactoring Browser

Quote:



[snip]
> But I *do* wonder why it is so difficult to make it available to the general
> public.  The registration process for the previous versions worked well, so
> why can't they offer it this time?

I'm glad you asked this as James's reply made clear what the hold up is.
It's a bit more complex than just adding more disk space (which, I'm
learning, can be harder than one would like in a procurement setting :().

(Acutally, I have to TOTALLY retract my joke. I'm finding out just how
long a seemingly trivial and easy request can take to get fulfilled in an
institution. Just getting people to agree on the basics can be hard
(scarily, I've found myself swept up in such discussions! as a
roadblock!), then the process of making the order, getting payment out,
etc.  etc....it can be slow on both sides! For something as non-critical
as an NC thing, it's probably going to be worse.)

Quote:
> > And all the past NC versions are still available, and the future one is
> > coming, if slowly. How are the NC users of no value on this scenario?
> > Given that it *is*, in part, an act of generosity, I don't feel like I am
> > right not snap my fingers and say "hurry up!"

> Oh, I did say that I am not a paying customer, I am not snapping my fingers.
> And I don't expect the Smalltalk vendors to deliver their product for free.
> We're not in c.l.l, are we? :-)

Everywhere is c.l.l....

Quote:
> > I hope it does make it out before the ICFP programming contest and folks
> > form a VWNC7 team to compete (i'll prolly be on a Common Lisp team this
> > year, though I'd kibbitz on a Smalltalk team).


> happen the next weekend, though I won't attend this year.

[snip]

Perhaps a designated person could be authorized to distribute CDs upon
getting registration info?
[snip]

Cheers,
Bijan Parsia.



Mon, 07 Feb 2005 11:31:44 GMT  
 Refactoring Browser

Quote:

> I hope it does make it out before the ICFP programming contest and folks
> form a VWNC7 team to compete (i'll prolly be on a Common Lisp team this
> year, though I'd kibbitz on a Smalltalk team).

> Cheers,
> Bijan Parsia.

Well a few weeks is longer than one, which is roughly the length of time
till ICFP 2002.  The contest is starting on Friday, August 30, 2002 --
Monday, September 2, 2002. So, my hope to use the RB and VW to crush the
competition is dashed for another year.  Back in  March when the talk of
the imminent release of VW7 and the RB  I thought that we had a shot.
Now the only choice is to try to get T-Gen and RB to work inside of
Squeak.  I wonder if Ian can get a high performance jitter to work by
then? :) I do think that using the power of the ST community and a
collaboration tool like Nebraska would make a cool way to put up a
decent fight with a Smalltalk entry sometime.  I'd laid out a plan on
how to go about being competetive using Smalltalk for this event.  But,
I didn't have time to debug and test the necessary tools to really do
things right.  Let alone do a dress rehearsal using the problems from
the previous years for experience and practice.

Oh well, there's always next year to prove that Smalltalk is the
language of choice for discriminating hackers.

Steve Gilbert



Mon, 07 Feb 2005 13:00:41 GMT  
 
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