ST vs Java vs ST vs .... 
Author Message
 ST vs Java vs ST vs ....

There have been a few threads here about
        Java
        Smalltalk vs Java
        Java vs Smalltalk
        ...

Many have been been "rationalizations" of
a Java that will die and a Smalltalk that will
take over the world (thats a slight exageration),
but it is comforting to jump on any negative press
that Java has received and conclude that its
in its death throws.

1. Java will not die, it has been too well marketed
   and it will do some things things that ST will
   not do (currently), such as having little applets
   that automatically appear via your net browser.
2. Java will have problems (over the net) in shipping
   and running complex applications.  Consider the
   library classes.  Maybe you make them part of
   the VM (or what the average user considers the VM),
   so you don't have to ship them ever, but then you
   lose the update capability.
3. Java lacks the library that ST has, but that only
   requires time.
4. Java does not have as simple and neat a syntax
   as ST.
5. Smalltalk will probably not die, I hope not!!

Smalltalk vendors blew it a few years ago.  They
tried to sell it to the technical community rather
than to the masses.  Java has been sold the
masses, it does not matter if its great or
terrible of in-between, if everyone "knows" its great
it will be used all over the place.  Decisions are
no longer made by those with the deep knowledge
but often (mostly) by those with the power who
in the last few years "think" they also have the
knowledge because they have a computer at
home and they read the magazines.

Smalltalk SHOULD have installed in schools,
shipped for free on the internet, packaged things
with new systems, placed articles in the
magazines found in the local stores.  These
things would have made ST a success long ago.

Another problem it had was the name.
I personally ignored it for years because
of the name.  It sounded like some toy for
kindergarten use or something.  We cannot
likely change that now.

Perhaps what might be done is to do a few
of the things that were not done before.
Make it available at large, drop it under
people's noses.  Put up VS on some of
the win95 shareware pages.  Drown people in
examples that show off the "neat" stuff
(Lists of unrelated objects, not useful but
really neat).  Let home users build real GUI
apps in 10minutes -- need some nice examples
for that.

Perhaps if some of the vendors would forget
competition for an hour or two and get together
to provide something like Visual Smalltalk with
canned examples and trivial README how-to
files and figure a way to get them into homes
we might see Smalltalk as a common word.

For now, ST is one of the best but Java will
be the biggest in numbers, and sooner than
we might like to think.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Cherniak Software Development Corporation       +1 905.771.7011    
400-10 Commerce Valley Dr E                Fax: +1 905.771.6288
Thornhill, ON Canada L3T 7N7           http://www.*-*-*.com/



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 ST vs Java vs ST vs ....

Quote:

> There have been a few threads here about
>         Java
>         Smalltalk vs Java
>         Java vs Smalltalk
>         ...

> Many have been been "rationalizations" of
> a Java that will die and a Smalltalk that will
> take over the world (thats a slight exageration),
> but it is comforting to jump on any negative press
> that Java has received and conclude that its
> in its death throws.

> 1. Java will not die, it has been too well marketed
>    and it will do some things things that ST will
>    not do (currently), such as having little applets
>    that automatically appear via your net browser.
> 2. Java will have problems (over the net) in shipping
>    and running complex applications.  Consider the
>    library classes.  Maybe you make them part of
>    the VM (or what the average user considers the VM),
>    so you don't have to ship them ever, but then you
>    lose the update capability.
> 3. Java lacks the library that ST has, but that only
>    requires time.
> 4. Java does not have as simple and neat a syntax
>    as ST.
> 5. Smalltalk will probably not die, I hope not!!

> Smalltalk vendors blew it a few years ago.  They
> tried to sell it to the technical community rather
> than to the masses.  Java has been sold the
> masses, it does not matter if its great or
> terrible of in-between, if everyone "knows" its great
> it will be used all over the place.  Decisions are
> no longer made by those with the deep knowledge
> but often (mostly) by those with the power who
> in the last few years "think" they also have the
> knowledge because they have a computer at
> home and they read the magazines.

> Smalltalk SHOULD have installed in schools,
> shipped for free on the internet, packaged things
> with new systems, placed articles in the
> magazines found in the local stores.  These
> things would have made ST a success long ago.

> Another problem it had was the name.
> I personally ignored it for years because
> of the name.  It sounded like some toy for
> kindergarten use or something.  We cannot
> likely change that now.

> Perhaps what might be done is to do a few
> of the things that were not done before.
> Make it available at large, drop it under
> people's noses.  Put up VS on some of
> the win95 shareware pages.  Drown people in
> examples that show off the "neat" stuff
> (Lists of unrelated objects, not useful but
> really neat).  Let home users build real GUI
> apps in 10minutes -- need some nice examples
> for that.

> Perhaps if some of the vendors would forget
> competition for an hour or two and get together
> to provide something like Visual Smalltalk with
> canned examples and trivial README how-to
> files and figure a way to get them into homes
> we might see Smalltalk as a common word.

> For now, ST is one of the best but Java will
> be the biggest in numbers, and sooner than
> we might like to think.

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

> Cherniak Software Development Corporation       +1 905.771.7011
> 400-10 Commerce Valley Dr E                Fax: +1 905.771.6288
> Thornhill, ON Canada L3T 7N7          http://www.cherniak.on.ca

This guy is on the right track.


Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 ST vs Java vs ST vs ....


Quote:


>>There have been a few threads here about
>>        Java
>>        Smalltalk vs Java
>>        Java vs Smalltalk
>>        ...

>>Many have been been "rationalizations" of
>>a Java that will die and a Smalltalk that will
>>take over the world (thats a slight exageration),
>>but it is comforting to jump on any negative press
>>that Java has received and conclude that its
>>in its death throws.

>It is not Java against Smalltalk but SUN against Microsoft. If you

*****   I agree that it should "not" be Java vs Smalltalk.  However
        if the perception is "Java vs Smalltalk", and it appears to
        be the perception in many cases (e.g. the thread on the
        editorial in the ST Journal), then we must recognize it as that
        and deal with it as that.   Hiding our heads doen't help.
        I with I were in a position to "do" something about it,
        I am not, we need the vendors (PP, IBM) and perhaps
        a few others (SIGS!!! re the ST Journal) to do it.
        Actually, it would help enourmously if PP and IBM would
        take a public stand that ST is a great development env,
        and is in fact in use in MANY industrial/commercial
        applications, and will continue to be into the future.
        Both of these vendors are pretty quiet, the best they
        seem to do is quietly post a few commercial examples
        on their web sites.

Quote:
>read the statements Scott McNelly made, than you notice that he never
>uses  the word Smalltalk, but only Microsoft.
>SUN also setup a group including IBM, Netscape and the OMG to fight
>Microsoft, i.e., Java combined with CORBA against DCOM and the
>Microsoft developer suite.

[...lots deleted...]

---------------------------------------------------------------

Cherniak Software Development Corporation       +1 905.771.7011
400-10 Commerce Valley Dr E                Fax: +1 905.771.6288
Thornhill, ON Canada L3T 7N7          http://www.cherniak.on.ca



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 ST vs Java vs ST vs ....

:>>It is not Java against Smalltalk but SUN against Microsoft. If you
:>*****   I agree that it should "not" be Java vs Smalltalk.  However
:>        if the perception is "Java vs Smalltalk", and it appears to
:>        be the perception in many cases (e.g. the thread on the
:>        editorial in the ST Journal), then we must recognize it as that
:>        and deal with it as that.   Hiding our heads doen't help.
:>        I with I were in a position to "do" something about it,
:>        I am not, we need the vendors (PP, IBM) and perhaps
:>        a few others (SIGS!!! re the ST Journal) to do it.
:>        Actually, it would help enourmously if PP and IBM would
:>        take a public stand that ST is a great development env,
:>        and is in fact in use in MANY industrial/commercial
:>        applications, and will continue to be into the future.
:>        Both of these vendors are pretty quiet, the best they
:>        seem to do is quietly post a few commercial examples
:>        on their web sites.

IBM managment cares about enterprise solutions not a nice
language.  If they say anything, it will be how well they provide
those solutions.  Don't misunderstand me, there are undoubtedly
many people at IBM who feel the way we do, but they are not top
level management.

On the other hand, PPD top level management should do more, it
is their life-{*filter*}.

But I think the best solution would be for the STIC to be more
aggressive and do more to promote Smalltalk.  As I wrote before,
a good place to start would be to host an eZine on their web
site.

===========================================================
Terry Raymond       Smalltalk Professional Debug Package
Crafted Smalltalk   *Breakpoints* and *Watchpoints* for
19 Tilley Ave.                  VW and ENVY/Developer
Newport, RI  02840

http://www.*-*-*.com/
===========================================================



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 ST vs Java vs ST vs ....

Quote:

> But I think the best solution would be for the STIC to be more
> aggressive and do more to promote Smalltalk.

The language wars should be over. Should we speak French or English ?It
doesn't really matter as long as the computers understand.
However, what makes Java great is its 'opennes' . Anybody can
provide a Java VM as its is standardized.  What if we had a proprietary
English ?

Panu



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 ST vs Java vs ST vs ....

:>
:>> But I think the best solution would be for the STIC to be more
:>> aggressive and do more to promote Smalltalk.
:>
:>The language wars should be over. Should we speak French or English ?It
:>doesn't really matter as long as the computers understand.
:>However, what makes Java great is its 'opennes' . Anybody can
:>provide a Java VM as its is standardized.  What if we had a proprietary
:>English ?

I have no problem with a Java/UVM as long as it supports Smalltalk semantics.
I happen to find the Smalltalk syntax and semantics to be quite productive
in writing software, so I am much more concerned about source code issues
than I am about a specific VM.

===========================================================
Terry Raymond       Smalltalk Professional Debug Package
Crafted Smalltalk   *Breakpoints* and *Watchpoints* for
19 Tilley Ave.                  VW and ENVY/Developer
Newport, RI  02840

http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com
===========================================================



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 
 [ 6 post ] 

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