Buying Visual Smalltalk Licenses 
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 Buying Visual Smalltalk Licenses

Does anyone know whether it is legal to buy pre-owned Visual Smalltalk
licenses?

Thanks.



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Buying Visual Smalltalk Licenses

Quote:

>Does anyone know whether it is legal to buy pre-owned Visual Smalltalk
>licenses?

Yes, especially if they are unopened.  Otherwise retailers would be illegal.
But these legal things are not ever entirely cut-and-dry, and may depend on
what country you're in, and the precise wording of the license agreement
that probably only intellectual propertly lawyers could give you a decent
opinion on the legalities.  It's also my understanding that even though they
have precise wording of the license agreement, they still take it with a
grain of salt.  If in doubt, move the operation to the Bahamas.  :)  I've
never heard of anyone loosing a court case because they bought pre-owned
software.  It probably wouldn't be too hard to win a case in court of just
copying the software simply because it was no longer commercially available,
with evidence that you tried to pay your dues to the company but they
refused it. (Preferably in writing)  It looks bad on them, they're asking
for money in court, yet refused it before, a very tough claim I would think.
You definitely would not recieve any sort of criminal punishment for such an
act, and even if they did try to sue you it would be exceptionally difficult
for them to get any more out of you than the original cost of the software.
While software is different than other mediums, it's my understanding that
in most countries, they treat all copyright material much the same --
software, books, music, etc.  It is completely legal to resell used books,
music, etc.  Here in Canada, we even have places that (so far) legally rent
software for short periods of time.

Ian

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Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Buying Visual Smalltalk Licenses

Thank you for your reply.  It will lead to my next posting for UNOPENED VS
or VSE software for sale.

Bob



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Buying Visual Smalltalk Licenses

Quote:

>> I've never heard of anyone loosing a court case because they bought pre-owned

software. <<

Uh...

There have been MANY such cases.  The key issue (at least in the US) is
that software is licensed and not sold;  that is, you purchase rights
and not the product.  When you buy VSE, you buy the right to USE it
under the terms set forth in the VSE license agreement.  You agree to
this license by virtue of opening the package;  if you choose not to
agree you can pack up the software and send it back.

One of the terms in the agreement is that the software license is
nontransferrable.  This has been thoroughly tested in court.  Strangely
enough, you DO have the right to transfer the physical media and the
books, just not the right to do anything with them :)

Why, you may ask, do I know so much about this?  Because I *wrote* the
license agreement for VSE when I was VP Business Development for
Digitalk - one of my jobs was overseeing Digitalk's legal affairs.

:)

...dan



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Buying Visual Smalltalk Licenses

Quote:


>>> I've never heard of anyone loosing a court case because they bought pre-owned
>software. <<

>[snip]

>One of the terms in the agreement is that the software license is
>nontransferrable.  This has been thoroughly tested in court.  Strangely
>enough, you DO have the right to transfer the physical media and the
>books, just not the right to do anything with them :)

>Why, you may ask, do I know so much about this?  Because I *wrote* the
>license agreement for VSE when I was VP Business Development for
>Digitalk - one of my jobs was overseeing Digitalk's legal affairs.

>:)

>...dan

Well Dan, I guess my statement still holds true, it's not illegal to
purchase the copy, or sell the copy, it's just illegal to use it.  :)  I
suppose if you spilt a cup of Java all over your manuals, and your buddy
decided to put your VSE cd in his toaster for a neat art project, it'd be
completely legal to buy used copies of them from someone, because you've
already got the license to use it.  The odd thing is, even though you may
have a completely valid license, it is still illegal to make backup
photocopies of the manual or copies of the media itself, unless explicitly
given permission to do so.  I had one person tell me that technically, for
many software license agreements, it is illegal to install the software on
your hard-drive.  :)  I'm not sure if that's true or not.

I wasn't sure if VSE's agreement had a non-transferable clause in it.
Apparently you'd know!  I'll definitely take your word over mine!  :)  If
you're buying used copies of non-transferable licenses for the sake of being
legal, it's not really logical.

Off on another thread, I've heard of some deranged companies that always
shelve their copies of software, untouched, unopened.  That way, if they
ever want to dump the software, they just resell it;  Yet, at any point in
time they have valid licenses for all the software they are using.  Still
illegal, but more difficult to prove that they had people using the software
for a period of time.  It's amazing at what lengths some people do to cheat
software companies out of some money.

Ian

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Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Buying Visual Smalltalk Licenses


Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Buying Visual Smalltalk Licenses

On Tue, 03 Jun 1997 10:40:50 -0700, Dan Goldman

Quote:


>>> I've never heard of anyone loosing a court case because they bought pre-owned
>software. <<

>Uh...

....

Dan,

Is the Smalltalk Store still in business ?  We have sent many e-mails
without replies regarding an outstanding unpaid invoice ?

Regards
Luc



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Buying Visual Smalltalk Licenses


Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Buying Visual Smalltalk Licenses

: There have been MANY such cases.  The key issue (at least in the US) is
: that software is licensed and not sold;  that is, you purchase rights
: and not the product.  When you buy VSE, you buy the right to USE it
: under the terms set forth in the VSE license agreement.  You agree to
: this license by virtue of opening the package;  if you choose not to
: agree you can pack up the software and send it back.

: One of the terms in the agreement is that the software license is
: nontransferrable.  This has been thoroughly tested in court.

<snip>

Hi Dan!

Okay, but are you saying that if the package was unopened, the license
terms have not been accepted, and the license is still open to be
accepted by someone else who will open the package (even an nth purchaser
of the package)?

Correct me if I misunderstand.  :)

: Why, you may ask, do I know so much about this?  Because I *wrote* the
: license agreement for VSE when I was VP Business Development for
: Digitalk - one of my jobs was overseeing Digitalk's legal affairs.

Carl
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Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Buying Visual Smalltalk Licenses


Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Buying Visual Smalltalk Licenses


Hi,

I know how you feel.

I sent them an order over a month ago with nary a peep out of them.  I
have since sent follow-up messages with receipt notification, and the
receipt notifications have not arrived, but the E-Mail did not bounce.

Craig

Quote:

>Dan,

>Is the Smalltalk Store still in business ?  We have sent many e-mails
>without replies regarding an outstanding unpaid invoice ?

>Regards
>Luc



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Buying Visual Smalltalk Licenses


Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Buying Visual Smalltalk Licenses



Quote:

>>> I've never heard of anyone loosing a court case because they bought pre-owned
>software. <<

>Uh...

>There have been MANY such cases.  The key issue (at least in the US) is
>that software is licensed and not sold;  that is, you purchase rights
>and not the product.  When you buy VSE, you buy the right to USE it
>under the terms set forth in the VSE license agreement.  You agree to
>this license by virtue of opening the package;  if you choose not to
>agree you can pack up the software and send it back.

>One of the terms in the agreement is that the software license is
>nontransferrable.  This has been thoroughly tested in court.  Strangely
>enough, you DO have the right to transfer the physical media and the
>books, just not the right to do anything with them :)

 I do not hope, that this is of any worth outside the US.

 Marten



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 
 [ 13 post ] 

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