: Eclipse - more than an IDE @ OTUG Mpls/St.Paul MN, Tue. May 20th 
Author Message
 : Eclipse - more than an IDE @ OTUG Mpls/St.Paul MN, Tue. May 20th

Greetings all,

The next Twin Cities Object Technology User Group meeting is this
     Tuesday, May 20th
at the University of St. Thomas, St. Paul MN
RSVP and directions at: www.otug.org.

                    Eclipse - More than an IDE
             John Wiegand,  Sr. Technical Staff Member, IBM.

Abstract:
Eclipse - more than a Java IDE!
Eclipse is a definitely a Java IDE but it is also much more.  It was
designed as a platform for tool development, a large scale plugin
architecture open sourced to enable a community of tool developers to
build their own tools with eclipse.  In the first part of this talk,
we'll discuss the Java IDE aspects of eclipse.  Later, we'll look at the
broader plugin development picture and explore what's new in the latest
eclipse releases.

www.eclipse.org

bio:
John Wiegand
Senior Technical Staff Member, IBM

John is the principal architect for the platform infrastructure. John
played a central role in the development of VA/Java, VA/Micro Edition,
and now Eclipse. His interests are in the areas of performance,
scalability, compilers, and just about anything that's hard. John is
serving as leader of the Platform subproject and PDE subproject, and is
acting lead of the Eclipse Project PMC.

###
Tom Evans
Object Technology User Group.
Abstractions Inc.
Minneapolis MN



Fri, 04 Nov 2005 13:50:08 GMT  
 : Eclipse - more than an IDE @ OTUG Mpls/St.Paul MN, Tue. May 20th
Eclipse is cool, but Smalltalk IDEs are even cooler.
Quote:

> Greetings all,

> The next Twin Cities Object Technology User Group meeting is this
>      Tuesday, May 20th
> at the University of St. Thomas, St. Paul MN
> RSVP and directions at: www.otug.org.

>                     Eclipse - More than an IDE
>              John Wiegand,  Sr. Technical Staff Member, IBM.

> Abstract:
> Eclipse - more than a Java IDE!
> Eclipse is a definitely a Java IDE but it is also much more.  It was
> designed as a platform for tool development, a large scale plugin
> architecture open sourced to enable a community of tool developers to
> build their own tools with eclipse.  In the first part of this talk,
> we'll discuss the Java IDE aspects of eclipse.  Later, we'll look at the
> broader plugin development picture and explore what's new in the latest
> eclipse releases.

> www.eclipse.org

> bio:
> John Wiegand
> Senior Technical Staff Member, IBM

> John is the principal architect for the platform infrastructure. John
> played a central role in the development of VA/Java, VA/Micro Edition,
> and now Eclipse. His interests are in the areas of performance,
> scalability, compilers, and just about anything that's hard. John is
> serving as leader of the Platform subproject and PDE subproject, and is
> acting lead of the Eclipse Project PMC.

> ###
> Tom Evans
> Object Technology User Group.
> Abstractions Inc.
> Minneapolis MN



Sun, 06 Nov 2005 10:27:50 GMT  
 : Eclipse - more than an IDE @ OTUG Mpls/St.Paul MN, Tue. May 20th


Quote:
> Eclipse is cool, but Smalltalk IDEs are even cooler.

You'll have to attend Smalltalk Solutions this year to see John O'Keefe
and Eric Clayberg attempt to convince us that we should drop Smalltalk
IDE's in favour of Eclipse, even for Smalltalk development.  Should be
an interesting talk...
--
============================================================
Thomas Koschate [|]

For PGP Key, see
http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xF45280AD



Mon, 07 Nov 2005 07:19:57 GMT  
 : Eclipse - more than an IDE @ OTUG Mpls/St.Paul MN, Tue. May 20th
On Wed, 21 May 2003 19:19:57 -0400, Thomas Koschate

Quote:



>> Eclipse is cool, but Smalltalk IDEs are even cooler.

>You'll have to attend Smalltalk Solutions this year to see John O'Keefe
>and Eric Clayberg attempt to convince us that we should drop Smalltalk
>IDE's in favour of Eclipse, even for Smalltalk development.  Should be
>an interesting talk...

"code in files.... how quaint"

<Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView



Mon, 07 Nov 2005 08:32:10 GMT  
 : Eclipse - more than an IDE @ OTUG Mpls/St.Paul MN, Tue. May 20th



Quote:


> > Eclipse is cool, but Smalltalk IDEs are even cooler.

> You'll have to attend Smalltalk Solutions this year to see John O'Keefe
> and Eric Clayberg attempt to convince us that we should drop Smalltalk
> IDE's in favour of Eclipse,

It is actually a very bright idea and I support it. Not necessary Eclipse,
but I think
IDE should ne moved "outside" of Smalltalk. (I talked about it several
months ago).

Vlastik

Quote:
>even for Smalltalk development.  Should be
> an interesting talk...
> --
> ============================================================
> Thomas Koschate [|]

> For PGP Key, see
> http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xF45280AD



Mon, 07 Nov 2005 13:50:16 GMT  
 : Eclipse - more than an IDE @ OTUG Mpls/St.Paul MN, Tue. May 20th

says...

Quote:
> It is actually a very bright idea and I support it. Not necessary Eclipse,
> but I think
> IDE should ne moved "outside" of Smalltalk. (I talked about it several
> months ago).

I know I'll regret opening this can of worms...

Without even working at it, I can think of two extremely good reasons
for keeping the IDE right where it is.

First, it provides an incredibly powerful way for the new user to
explore the workings of Smalltalk in real code or for the experienced
programmer to verify something.  See a method you think does what you
want it to?  Let's do a sendersOf: and see how it be in use currently.  
There's no way you could do that in your freshly installed copy of
Eclipse or Bloatware's MegaQuantumSuperDeveloperStudioCafe.

Second, it makes it easier to customize the environment if you can do it
in the language you're used to developing in.  Many years ago, when I
developed in a language with a single-character name, I used an editor
called Brief (this was before IDEs).  Brief had a fantastic macro
language, but it was Lisp-based, and very few people bothered writing
macros for it.  Eventually, Brief's macro language was converted to use
a C-like syntax.  Instantly all kinds of folks started writing macros
for it.  By the time I moved on to Smalltalk, I had my Brief environment
tuned almost to the point where it would write entire functions with a
few key strokes.

Look at VisualAge for Java.  How many people wrote extensions for that
environment?  As far as I know, Eric Clayberg was about the only one
outside of IBM that even had a clue as to how to do it.

In the Eclipse space, how many people are writing extensions in
languages other than Java?  Can one even write extensions in a language
other than Java?  Where does that leave me as a Smalltalk programmer, or
Bert over there as a Ruby programmer, or Estelle as a Perl programmer?  
What's the benefit in forcing all of us to become proficient in Language
X, just so we can fine tune our development environment for Language Y?  
The situation promises to be less problematic in .NET eventually, but I
haven't seen anything yet to convince me.

Please don't bother telling me about the great unwashed mass of
programmers that management types don't want touching their development
environments.  Eventually a few of them might have some hope of rising
above the tide of mediocrity.  We don't need to make it any tougher for
them than we have to!
--
============================================================
Thomas Koschate [|]

For PGP Key, see
http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xF45280AD



Tue, 08 Nov 2005 07:14:26 GMT  
 : Eclipse - more than an IDE @ OTUG Mpls/St.Paul MN, Tue. May 20th


Quote:


>> Eclipse is cool, but Smalltalk IDEs are even cooler.

> You'll have to attend Smalltalk Solutions this year to see John O'Keefe
> and Eric Clayberg attempt to convince us that we should drop Smalltalk
> IDE's in favour of Eclipse, even for Smalltalk development.  Should be
> an interesting talk...

I think you may be misjudging what John and Eric have to say, and I don't
think I agree with some of your technical points (e.g. I'm pretty sure I
could do senders very nicely in a non-ST environment). But I very strongly
agree with your fundamental point, that people should attend Smalltalk
Solutions this year to find out (Toronto, July 14-16,
http://www.smalltalksolutions.com)

--
Alan Knight [|]
Program Chair, Smalltalk Solutions 2003



Tue, 08 Nov 2005 09:18:16 GMT  
 : Eclipse - more than an IDE @ OTUG Mpls/St.Paul MN, Tue. May 20th

says...

Quote:
> I think you may be misjudging what John and Eric have to say, and I don't
> think I agree with some of your technical points (e.g. I'm pretty sure I
> could do senders very nicely in a non-ST environment). But I very strongly
> agree with your fundamental point, that people should attend Smalltalk
> Solutions this year to find out (Toronto, July 14-16,
> http://www.smalltalksolutions.com)

I perhaps phrased things badly.  I didn't mean to imply that one can't
browse classes or look for senders.  The point of the Smalltalk
environment is that one has real, living context to look at out-of-the-
box.  With a closed IDE, there's nothing to see until you've either
written code, or pulled in examples of potentially questionable
usefulness.

As for John and Eric's presentation, I read your report about their
OOPSLA presentation, so I'm looking forward to seeing this one.  I'm
still reserving judgement...
--
============================================================
Thomas Koschate [|]

For PGP Key, see
http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xF45280AD



Tue, 08 Nov 2005 17:34:29 GMT  
 : Eclipse - more than an IDE @ OTUG Mpls/St.Paul MN, Tue. May 20th



Quote:

> says...

> > It is actually a very bright idea and I support it. Not necessary
Eclipse,
> > but I think
> > IDE should ne moved "outside" of Smalltalk. (I talked about it several
> > months ago).

> I know I'll regret opening this can of worms...

> Without even working at it, I can think of two extremely good reasons
> for keeping the IDE right where it is.

As long as the choice of programming language will matter, we still will be
in early stages of software
development evolution.

 Vlastik



Wed, 09 Nov 2005 12:23:05 GMT  
 : Eclipse - more than an IDE @ OTUG Mpls/St.Paul MN, Tue. May 20th

Quote:

>Eclipse is cool, but Smalltalk IDEs are even cooler.

I agree. Yet I can see the market rationale for Eclipse.

Especially since in the web-centered world projects
are often multi-language, and a single developer
may use several languages within single day (Java,
JavaScript, JSP, ASP, HTML, CSS, XML, XSLT, SVG  
- and Smalltalk!).

Therefore I would hope to see a Smalltalk IDE that
allowed for development in other languages besides
Smalltalk itself. Something *like* Ecplipse, but
implemented - and extendable - in Smalltalk.

-Panu Viljamaa



Wed, 09 Nov 2005 14:51:35 GMT  
 : Eclipse - more than an IDE @ OTUG Mpls/St.Paul MN, Tue. May 20th

says...

Quote:
> Therefore I would hope to see a Smalltalk IDE that
> allowed for development in other languages besides
> Smalltalk itself. Something *like* Ecplipse, but
> implemented - and extendable - in Smalltalk.

One can only dream about what might have been accomplished had John and
Eric and the Black Knight team put their efforts into bringing Eclipse-
like features to VisualAge for Smalltalk, rather than trying to get
Smalltalk working in Eclipse...
--
============================================================
Thomas Koschate [|]

For PGP Key, see
http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xF45280AD



Thu, 10 Nov 2005 07:44:52 GMT  
 : Eclipse - more than an IDE @ OTUG Mpls/St.Paul MN, Tue. May 20th


Quote:

> You'll have to attend Smalltalk Solutions this year to see John O'Keefe
> and Eric Clayberg attempt to convince us that we should drop Smalltalk
> IDE's in favour of Eclipse, even for Smalltalk development.

Yikes! If you come to Smalltalk Solutions expecting to see a talk like that,
you will be disappointed.

BTW, I did a talk last year at SS'02 on "Eclispe for Smalltalkers". You can
see the presentation here:

    http://www.instantiations.com/sts/files/Eclipse4Smalltalkers.pdf

-Eric Clayberg
 Sr. Vice President of Product Development
 Instantiations, Inc.

 http://www.instantiations.com/sts



Thu, 10 Nov 2005 09:57:50 GMT  
 : Eclipse - more than an IDE @ OTUG Mpls/St.Paul MN, Tue. May 20th
Eclipse is pretty cool. I've spent some time both developing in
Eclipse as well as developing
an ide based on Eclipse and it definitely has it's pluses but... I
wouldn't even consider it
the best java development environment let alone pass it off as a
replacement for Smalltalk
development environments (IdeaJ is much better than Eclipse).  

Even if it was the best Java environment the advantages that can be
gained buy having an environment written in the language being
developed is quite compelling. Being able to edit that environment as
you develop your software can lead to an unparalleled development
experience.

But that's just my opinion :-)

Quote:


> says...

> > Therefore I would hope to see a Smalltalk IDE that
> > allowed for development in other languages besides
> > Smalltalk itself. Something *like* Ecplipse, but
> > implemented - and extendable - in Smalltalk.

> One can only dream about what might have been accomplished had John and
> Eric and the Black Knight team put their efforts into bringing Eclipse-
> like features to VisualAge for Smalltalk, rather than trying to get
> Smalltalk working in Eclipse...



Fri, 11 Nov 2005 01:00:56 GMT  
 : Eclipse - more than an IDE @ OTUG Mpls/St.Paul MN, Tue. May 20th

Quote:

> Eclipse is pretty cool. I've spent some time both developing in
> Eclipse as well as developing
> an ide based on Eclipse and it definitely has it's pluses but... I
> wouldn't even consider it
> the best java development environment let alone pass it off as a
> replacement for Smalltalk
> development environments (IdeaJ is much better than Eclipse).  

> Even if it was the best Java environment the advantages that can be
> gained buy having an environment written in the language being
> developed is quite compelling. Being able to edit that environment as
> you develop your software can lead to an unparalleled development
> experience.

> But that's just my opinion :-)

and which of course Smalltalk is still unrivaled. BTW, we all miss you
out here in NYC. Ignore that comment if you are not the Steve Harris I
think you are.

-Charles

- Show quoted text -

Quote:



> > says...

> > > Therefore I would hope to see a Smalltalk IDE that
> > > allowed for development in other languages besides
> > > Smalltalk itself. Something *like* Ecplipse, but
> > > implemented - and extendable - in Smalltalk.

> > One can only dream about what might have been accomplished had John and
> > Eric and the Black Knight team put their efforts into bringing Eclipse-
> > like features to VisualAge for Smalltalk, rather than trying to get
> > Smalltalk working in Eclipse...



Sat, 12 Nov 2005 02:01:32 GMT  
 
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