Curious About Small Talk 
Author Message
 Curious About Small Talk

Hi;

I'm a new programmer in my first year out of school.

I spent a lot of time studying C++ & MFC/sdk.   I got frustrated with
windows programming technologies and area employers who would not give
entry level jobs in msvc++/mfc.

I did get a junior level Java position, and despite its faults I'm
starting to like Java.

Since I have been reading Java newsgroups I've learned that small talk
is alive and well and I've become curious about it.  I have a few
questions:

1.  Does small talk support gui?  Can you make a program for windows95
with small talk?

2.  Is the small talk employment sector like msvc++ in that junior level
people have a tough time getting hired?  Is there a significant amount
of small talk out there.  Is small talk making a come back or is it just
holding on to a niche?

3.  Anyone have a url for small talk tutorial?  I'm curious to see what
it looks like.

Thanks
Steve



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Curious About Small Talk

Quote:

>1.  Does small talk support gui?  Can you make a program for windows95
>with small talk?

Yes, almost all Smalltalk's have a GUI development environment can can
build GUI applications.

For starting Smalltalk on Windows, you can download the free implementations
of Dolphin Smalltalk: http://www.object-arts.com
or Smalltalk Express (16-bit) on: http://www.objectshare.com

Both have tutorials, Dolphin is more advanced, but a little more difficult
to master for GUI developement due to the Model-View-Presenter architecture

Quote:

>2.  Is the small talk employment sector like msvc++ in that junior level
>people have a tough time getting hired?  Is there a significant amount
>of small talk out there.  Is small talk making a come back or is it just
>holding on to a niche?

Job opportunities are generally less for Smalltalk than for C++, but
ofter higher paid. Look for financial institutions (banks/exchange traders)
in
your neighborhood.

Quote:
>3.  Anyone have a url for small talk tutorial?  I'm curious to see what
>it looks like.

Look at the sites above. Especially Smalltalk Express has a nice tutorial.

Richard



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Curious About Small Talk

Quote:
>Job opportunities are generally less for Smalltalk than for C++, but
>ofter higher paid. Look for financial institutions (banks/exchange traders)
>in
>your neighborhood.

try Insurance (Chubb, Progressive, USAA) and Telecom (Spring, MCI, Bells)
too.


Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Curious About Small Talk
On Wed, 03 Mar 1999 09:05:25 -0800, Steve Russell

Quote:

>Hi;

>I'm a new programmer in my first year out of school.

>I spent a lot of time studying C++ & MFC/sdk.   I got frustrated with
>windows programming technologies and area employers who would not give
>entry level jobs in msvc++/mfc.
>[...]
>Since I have been reading Java newsgroups I've learned that small talk
>is alive and well and I've become curious about it.  I have a few
>questions:

>1.  Does small talk support gui?  Can you make a program for windows95
>with small talk?

>2.  Is the small talk employment sector like msvc++ in that junior level
>people have a tough time getting hired?  Is there a significant amount
>of small talk out there.  Is small talk making a come back or is it just
>holding on to a niche?

>3.  Anyone have a url for small talk tutorial?  I'm curious to see what
>it looks like.

All Smalltalks that I've used (VisualAge, VisualWorks,
VisualSmalltalk, Dolphin) can create applications which run under and
look like a Windows 95/NT application.  Dolphin creates an application
which only will run on the Windows platform.  VisualWorks lets you
create an application which will run, unchanged, on many different
platforms.  You can get a free copy of VisualWorks from
http://www.objectshare.com.  I also recommend visiting the Dolphin web
site at http://www.object-arts.com.  From there you can download a
freely available version of Dolphin Smalltalk.  The also have a nice
"education centre" which contains information about programming in
Smalltalk.  The best way to learn Smalltalk is to simply get a copy of
it and play around with it.

James W. Howe                           Voice: (734) 669-2244
AppNet Inc.              

Ann Arbor, MI  48108                    http://www.aisys.com



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Curious About Small Talk

Quote:

> Hi;

> I'm a new programmer in my first year out of school.

> I spent a lot of time studying C++ & MFC/sdk.   I got frustrated with
> windows programming technologies and area employers who would not give
> entry level jobs in msvc++/mfc.

Agreed,  MFC/SDK is pure garbage.  Which is why it's going out of favor REAL
fast.  Trust me, you _will_ get the last laugh when all those MFC-heavy
businesses go OUT of business.

Quote:
> I did get a junior level Java position, and despite its faults I'm
> starting to like Java.

Java has no "inherent" faults.  The language itself is superb.  I use it, I
write pure OO in it, and I'm a happy camper.  My code works on far more
systems than anything built with Smalltalk, and it's compatible and links in
with far more systems than anything Smalltalk.

And the reality is that there are a large number of Smalltalk projects out
there being converted _to_ Java.  Why?  Because Java is the superior.

Quote:
> Since I have been reading Java newsgroups I've learned that small talk
> is alive and well and I've become curious about it.  I have a few
> questions:

Smalltalk may be alive, but it is certainly not well:  the primadonna of
Smalltalk development tools -- VisualWorks -- is falling and falling fast.
It looks like they're going out of business, and the reasons should be
obvious:  Nobody uses Smalltalk anymore!!

Quote:
> 1.  Does small talk support gui?  Can you make a program for windows95
> with small talk?

> 2.  Is the small talk employment sector like msvc++ in that junior level
> people have a tough time getting hired?  Is there a significant amount
> of small talk out there.  Is small talk making a come back or is it just
> holding on to a niche?

It's a niche you schmuck.

Dude, I'm confused here.  Before you were rambling about how it's so
difficult to get a job doing MFC because of the experience requirements, yet
now you're asking about a job in Smalltalk?

Dude, the chances of you EVER getting a job programming in Smalltalk are
about the same as your chances of getting hit by a comet.

Zero Ziltch Nada.

Quote:

> 3.  Anyone have a url for small talk tutorial?  I'm curious to see what
> it looks like.

It looks like perl.


Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Curious About Small Talk

Quote:

> Java has no "inherent" faults.  The language itself is superb.  I use it, I
> write pure OO in it, and I'm a happy camper.  My code works on far more
> systems than anything built with Smalltalk, and it's compatible and links in
> with far more systems than anything Smalltalk.

-- inherent fault:  primitive data types.
-- inherent fault:  no support for genericity

The first means that you can't do unobstructed OO; there are things that aren't
objects in the way.  The second means that doing distributed processing in Java
is a few orders of magnitude harder than it is in Smalltalk.

Now let's talk about learning curve:  How many reserved words are there in Java
?  And how many built in constructs, as well as operator precednce rules ?

Smalltalk has five reserved words
Smalltalk has two operators
Smalltalk has a small handful of precedence rules that are consistent.

You should also know that the author of the post I'm responding to (by his own
admission) does not know Smalltalk.  he's therefore speaking from ignorance at
best.  Smalltalk continues to grow in usage; not as fast as Java, but it never
grew as fast as C++ either.

Quote:
> Smalltalk may be alive, but it is certainly not well:  the primadonna of
> Smalltalk development tools -- VisualWorks -- is falling and falling fast.
> It looks like they're going out of business, and the reasons should be
> obvious:  Nobody uses Smalltalk anymore!!

You haven't  looked at our download page for VW for Linux, have you ?

Quote:

> > 1.  Does small talk support gui?  Can you make a program for windows95
> > with small talk?

yes.  In VisualWorks (and to a lesser extent, VisualAge) it's portable across a
wide variety of platforms as well.

Quote:

> > 2.  Is the small talk employment sector like msvc++ in that junior level
> > people have a tough time getting hired?  Is there a significant amount
> > of small talk out there.  Is small talk making a come back or is it just
> > holding on to a niche?

We are hiring.  Look at this message board and you'll see plenty of opportunity
for junior people

Quote:
> > 3.  Anyone have a url for small talk tutorial?  I'm curious to see what
> > it looks like.

> It looks like perl.

Again, you don't know Smalltalk, so what's that opinion worth ?  Not much

--
<Talk Small and carry a Big Class Library>

Opinions expressed are mine alone, and do not necessarily reflect those
of my employer

  jarober.vcf
< 1K Download


Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Curious About Small Talk

Quote:


>> I did get a junior level Java position, and despite its faults I'm
>> starting to like Java.

>Java has no "inherent" faults.  The language itself is superb.  I use it, I
>write pure OO in it, and I'm a happy camper.

How do you write "pure OO" with Java? Java isn't a pure OO language. What
did you manage to learn in your high school Java course, anyway?

Quote:
>My code works on far more
>systems than anything built with Smalltalk

Such as? I bet you don't eve know what platforms VisualWorks, VisualAge and
Squeak run on.

Quote:
>and it's compatible and links in
>with far more systems than anything Smalltalk.

Again, how would you know. You claim to know nothing about Smalltalk.

Quote:
>And the reality is that there are a large number of Smalltalk projects out
>there being converted _to_ Java.

Why don't you name a few. I know of a "large number of Smalltalk projects".
I am only aware of a handful that are being converted to Java (and almost
all of those were based on VSE).

Quote:
> Why?  Because Java is the superior.

You keep saying that, but have yet to provide any evidence to support that
claim or any evidence that you have the slightest inkling of what you are
talking about.

Quote:
>Smalltalk may be alive, but it is certainly not well:  the primadonna of
>Smalltalk development tools -- VisualWorks -- is falling and falling fast.
>It looks like they're going out of business, and the reasons should be
>obvious:  Nobody uses Smalltalk anymore!!

Lots of folks use Smalltalk. According to IBM, they have over 40,000
VisualAge Smalltalk users. They also have a huge installed base of VisualAge
Generator (a VA Smalltalk superset) customers.

Quote:
>> 3.  Anyone have a url for small talk tutorial?  I'm curious to see what
>> it looks like.

>It looks like perl.

It looks like perl?!? I suppose that you would say that Greek looks a lot
like Russian or Japanese looks a lot like Chinese or that German looks a lot
like English.

-Eric



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Curious About Small Talk

Quote:


> Java has no "inherent" faults.  The language itself is superb.  I use it, I
> write pure OO in it, and I'm a happy camper.

IMHO wrong:
Integers like 5, 147, etc. are treated in an non-OO manner.
How do you write pure OO code? Can you handle a class an an object?
...

Quote:
> And the reality is that there are a large number of Smalltalk projects out
> there being converted _to_ Java.  Why?  Because Java is the superior.
NO!

> > Since I have been reading Java newsgroups I've learned that small talk
> > is alive and well and I've become curious about it.  I have a few
> > questions:

> Smalltalk may be alive, but it is certainly not well:  the primadonna of
> Smalltalk development tools -- VisualWorks -- is falling and falling fast.
> It looks like they're going out of business, and the reasons should be
> obvious:  Nobody uses Smalltalk anymore!!

Wrong! There are many people using Smalltalk. There are many people
interested in VisualWorks for Linux!!
Quote:

> It looks like perl.

NO!
Smalltalk code looks very nice and is directly understandable!

Frank



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Curious About Small Talk
No inheren faults???
* there are primitive data types
* why should anyone reasonnably base the syntax of a MODERN programming
language on c++??

Looks like Perl - ??????

I worked with Smalltalk (Digitalk, VisualAge) and I thought - "how nice :-)"
Then I had to work with VC++/MFC and I  suffered - "Why there are so many
people loosing their time with such a terrible (shitty) environment?
Now I occasionally work with Java and I think: "Well, better than C++, but
there is nothing that compares to working with Smalltalk"

In my opinion there is no programming language (except perhaps Eiffel, which
I don't know well) where th step from a conceptual OO Design to the final
implementation is less problematic than with Smalltalk!
You write, what you are thinking - and you are not bothered all the time
with these totally unnecessary and  really stupid "{,},-> and-so-on
complexity" of other languages.



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Curious About Small Talk
"VisualWorks lets you create an application which will run,
unchanged, on many different platforms."

Gawsh, Trigger, that sounds a awful lot like "rite wunce, run
any-whair".  Duh, hyuck, hyuck!

Java says it.  Smalltalk does it.  I'll take deeds, thanks.

--
--------------------------------------------
Paul McDonough
"money is a mass hallucination" - Clark Kent



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Curious About Small Talk

Quote:

> "VisualWorks lets you create an application which will run,
> unchanged, on many different platforms."

> Gawsh, Trigger, that sounds a awful lot like "rite wunce, run
> any-whair".  Duh, hyuck, hyuck!

> Java says it.  Smalltalk does it.  I'll take deeds, thanks.

Boy, I'm tired of seeing casual comments about how perfect ST is, in
comparison to that horrible, yechy, Java.

Two people in our group just spent a week porting, hacking, and coercing
a VW program that was written on Windows NT to function, minimally, on a
Macintosh.  Getting this working right involved hacking VW standard
libraries (they didn't handle the Mac's :: directory symbols), as well
as installing 3rd party hacks (In order to have windows that can be
resized!).

- Robb



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Curious About Small Talk

Quote:

> Two people in our group just spent a week porting, hacking, and coercing
> a VW program that was written on Windows NT to function, minimally, on a
> Macintosh.  Getting this working right involved hacking VW standard
> libraries (they didn't handle the Mac's :: directory symbols), as well
> as installing 3rd party hacks (In order to have windows that can be
> resized!).

1) Did you load the Mac Filename support (there's an additional parcel that
I believe handles this issue)

As to the Window resize issue, please let me know what that was.

Quote:

> - Robb

--
<Talk Small and carry a Big Class Library>

Opinions expressed are mine alone, and do not necessarily reflect those
of my employer

  jarober.vcf
< 1K Download


Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Curious About Small Talk

Quote:


> > "VisualWorks lets you create an application which will run,
> > unchanged, on many different platforms."

> > Gawsh, Trigger, that sounds a awful lot like "rite wunce, run
> > any-whair".  Duh, hyuck, hyuck!

> > Java says it.  Smalltalk does it.  I'll take deeds, thanks.

> Boy, I'm tired of seeing casual comments about how perfect ST is, in
> comparison to that horrible, yechy, Java.

> Two people in our group just spent a week porting, hacking, and coercing
> a VW program that was written on Windows NT to function, minimally, on a
> Macintosh.  Getting this working right involved hacking VW standard
> libraries (they didn't handle the Mac's :: directory symbols), as well
> as installing 3rd party hacks (In order to have windows that can be
> resized!).

> - Robb

Huh.  The Mac Filename part is solved by system code that you didn't
have loaded.  What I'm curious about is the window problem you were
having.  Could you explain it in more detail?  Which 3rd party products
did you use to fix the problem?

Also, you say that those two problems got the program up to "minimal
functionality."  What are the masses of other problems?

We're you transfering your code between similar versions of VW?

For my personal contracts, I do all of my development on Linux, and
deploy exclusively to Windows95/NT.  I've never had any problems with
it.  Obviously you had some pretty hideous problems, and I'd really like
to get them corrected.

Thanks---pete

-----------------------------------------------------------
Peter Hatch     pete at parcplace.com
-----------------------------------------------------------



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 Curious About Small Talk
On Tue, 09 Mar 1999 19:56:03 GMT, "James A. Robertson"

Quote:


>> Two people in our group just spent a week porting, hacking, and coercing
>> a VW program that was written on Windows NT to function, minimally, on a
>> Macintosh.  Getting this working right involved hacking VW standard
>> libraries (they didn't handle the Mac's :: directory symbols), as well
>> as installing 3rd party hacks (In order to have windows that can be
>> resized!).

Maybe I was too dumb to know better, but I took my very first
(VW2.x) application -- a reasonable size, about 50 classes --
written and debugged on Win3.1 and Win95 and dropped onto a MAC
(I had never touched never mind used a MAC before), and the only
problem I had was a minor Dataset Widget line size bug in WinXX
for which my workaround caused micro-sized lines in the dataset
widget.  Other than that (easily fixed by removing my workaround)
the whole thing "just worked" -- including filesystem accesses for
loading/unloading are client's data via ascii files as well as
user customization via folder-per-user with other ascii files --
also binary files of compressed (in-house compress) tar'ed
(in-house tar) folder structures.  ALL of this worked first time.

Quote:

>1) Did you load the Mac Filename support (there's an additional parcel that
>I believe handles this issue)

>As to the Window resize issue, please let me know what that was.

>> - Robb

=================================================================
Dennis Smith, MaSc  --  Cherniak Software Development Corporation
400-10 Commerce Valley Dr E, Thornhill ON Canada  L3T 7N7
Phone: 905.771.7011      FAX: 905.771.6288



Wed, 18 Jun 1902 08:00:00 GMT  
 
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