Inspector should be redesigned 
Author Message
 Inspector should be redesigned

Inspector in VW should be redesigned.

Try this:

 | a |

 a := OrderedCollection new.
 a add: a.
 a inspect

Vlastik



Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:04:00 GMT  
 Inspector should be redesigned
all the windows opened become gray!!!
I can't close any window...
really strange....

Simone



Quote:
> Inspector in VW should be redesigned.

> Try this:

>  | a |

>  a := OrderedCollection new.
>  a add: a.
>  a inspect

> Vlastik



Wed, 06 Apr 2005 19:17:12 GMT  
 Inspector should be redesigned


Quote:
> Inspector in VW should be redesigned.

> Try this:

> | a |

>  a := OrderedCollection new.
>  a add: a.
>  a inspect

> Vlastik

Actually, the problem is that #printOn: ends up
in a loop.  This is a well known problem.  Most
fixes for this sacrifice its current usefulness.

As long as you think it needs to be fixed, why not
investigate it and propose a solution that fixes it
and maintains its current usefulness for most
situations.

--
Terry
===========================================================
Terry Raymond       Smalltalk Professional Debug Package
Crafted Smalltalk   *Breakpoints* and *Watchpoints* for
80 Lazywood Ln.                  VW and ENVY/Developer
Tiverton, RI  02878
(401) 624-4517        traymond at craftedsmalltalk dot com
http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com
===========================================================



Wed, 06 Apr 2005 20:16:12 GMT  
 Inspector should be redesigned
OK, my proposal....
I am not gonna fix it :)) Though I can.... See, how MS Visual Basic
Watch list (their version of an inspector) works..... It is simple and
smart... And they are avoiding the endless loop..

Or look at Smalltalk MT inspectors....It works fine....
That's the problem vith VW....there are several "well known" problems
already a quite long time.

On the other side, I think VW7 is a great product and CINCOM a great
company.

Vlastik

"Terry Raymond" <traymond-nospam-at-craftedsmalltalk-dot-com> wrote in

Quote:


> > Inspector in VW should be redesigned.

> > Try this:

> > | a |

> >  a := OrderedCollection new.
> >  a add: a.
> >  a inspect

> > Vlastik

> Actually, the problem is that #printOn: ends up
> in a loop.  This is a well known problem.  Most
> fixes for this sacrifice its current usefulness.

> As long as you think it needs to be fixed, why not
> investigate it and propose a solution that fixes it
> and maintains its current usefulness for most
> situations.

> --
> Terry
> ===========================================================
> Terry Raymond       Smalltalk Professional Debug Package
> Crafted Smalltalk   *Breakpoints* and *Watchpoints* for
> 80 Lazywood Ln.                  VW and ENVY/Developer
> Tiverton, RI  02878
> (401) 624-4517        traymond at craftedsmalltalk dot com
> http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com
> ===========================================================



Thu, 07 Apr 2005 03:24:02 GMT  
 Inspector should be redesigned
Inspector should not use #printOn: .
It should use something like
#ifNotRecursivePrintOnIfRecursivePrintRecursiveOnAndChopItOf:  :-)

Vlastik

"Terry Raymond" <traymond-nospam-at-craftedsmalltalk-dot-com> wrote in

Quote:


> > Inspector in VW should be redesigned.

> > Try this:

> > | a |

> >  a := OrderedCollection new.
> >  a add: a.
> >  a inspect

> > Vlastik

> Actually, the problem is that #printOn: ends up
> in a loop.  This is a well known problem.  Most
> fixes for this sacrifice its current usefulness.

> As long as you think it needs to be fixed, why not
> investigate it and propose a solution that fixes it
> and maintains its current usefulness for most
> situations.

> --
> Terry
> ===========================================================
> Terry Raymond       Smalltalk Professional Debug Package
> Crafted Smalltalk   *Breakpoints* and *Watchpoints* for
> 80 Lazywood Ln.                  VW and ENVY/Developer
> Tiverton, RI  02878
> (401) 624-4517        traymond at craftedsmalltalk dot com
> http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com
> ===========================================================



Thu, 07 Apr 2005 03:53:21 GMT  
 Inspector should be redesigned
Press Ctrl+Y and in the De{*filter*} window see what printOn: is doing

Vlastik


Quote:
> all the windows opened become gray!!!
> I can't close any window...
> really strange....

> Simone



> > Inspector in VW should be redesigned.

> > Try this:

> >  | a |

> >  a := OrderedCollection new.
> >  a add: a.
> >  a inspect

> > Vlastik



Thu, 07 Apr 2005 03:54:24 GMT  
 Inspector should be redesigned

Quote:
> OK, my proposal....
> I am not gonna fix it :)) Though I can.... See, how MS Visual Basic
> Watch list (their version of an inspector) works..... It is simple and
> smart... And they are avoiding the endless loop..

Could you elaborate for the unenlightened?

Quote:
> Or look at Smalltalk MT inspectors....It works fine....
> That's the problem vith VW....there are several "well known" problems
> already a quite long time.

Anything that has been around long enough has well-known problems.  Perhaps
it would be different if people were actually fixing what say they can.

--
Vassili Bykov [|] vassili "at" parcplace "dot" com
VisualWorks Engineering
[:s | s, s printString] value: '[:s | s, s printString] value: '



Thu, 07 Apr 2005 04:03:10 GMT  
 Inspector should be redesigned

Quote:


> > OK, my proposal....
> > I am not gonna fix it :)) Though I can.... See, how MS Visual Basic
> > Watch list (their version of an inspector) works..... It is simple and
> > smart... And they are avoiding the endless loop..

> Could you elaborate for the unenlightened?

Example: an Array has 4 entries.. The first entry contains number 3,
the second one contains a symbol #whatever, the third one points to some
object and the fourth one point to itself....
To avoid andless loop when printing the selected entry in the text pane,
we should have actually a TreeView window insted to show only some basic
information about the object beeing pointed to by the entry and if the user
wish, he/she can click on that node and go deeper through the structure...
Thus, there will be no endless loop ...

Quote:

> > Or look at Smalltalk MT inspectors....It works fine....
> > That's the problem vith VW....there are several "well known" problems
> > already a quite long time.

> Anything that has been around long enough has well-known problems.
Perhaps
> it would be different if people were actually fixing what say they can.

I don't agree. This would be an anarchistic approach, the same as Linux OS
is build on.
I like more the FreeBSD OS model much more....
We can suggest changes, but we should not make them... I this way, we can
achieve a uniformity
and stability. Of course, I can completely rewamp VW, but how well it will
work with code written
by other people who have also "their own" version of VW?

Vlastik



Thu, 07 Apr 2005 04:50:12 GMT  
 Inspector should be redesigned
on the other hand, your test is kind of a pathological test.  

On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 15:24:02 -0400, "Vlastimil Adamovsky"

Quote:

>OK, my proposal....
>I am not gonna fix it :)) Though I can.... See, how MS Visual Basic
>Watch list (their version of an inspector) works..... It is simple and
>smart... And they are avoiding the endless loop..

>Or look at Smalltalk MT inspectors....It works fine....
>That's the problem vith VW....there are several "well known" problems
>already a quite long time.

>On the other side, I think VW7 is a great product and CINCOM a great
>company.

>Vlastik

>"Terry Raymond" <traymond-nospam-at-craftedsmalltalk-dot-com> wrote in



>> > Inspector in VW should be redesigned.

>> > Try this:

>> > | a |

>> >  a := OrderedCollection new.
>> >  a add: a.
>> >  a inspect

>> > Vlastik

>> Actually, the problem is that #printOn: ends up
>> in a loop.  This is a well known problem.  Most
>> fixes for this sacrifice its current usefulness.

>> As long as you think it needs to be fixed, why not
>> investigate it and propose a solution that fixes it
>> and maintains its current usefulness for most
>> situations.

>> --
>> Terry
>> ===========================================================
>> Terry Raymond       Smalltalk Professional Debug Package
>> Crafted Smalltalk   *Breakpoints* and *Watchpoints* for
>> 80 Lazywood Ln.                  VW and ENVY/Developer
>> Tiverton, RI  02878
>> (401) 624-4517        traymond at craftedsmalltalk dot com
>> http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com
>> ===========================================================

<Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
James Robertson
Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk


Thu, 07 Apr 2005 05:45:57 GMT  
 Inspector should be redesigned
Please, show us an algorithm to detect circular
references that can be arbitrarily deep, and do
so in a reasonable amount of time a memory.



Quote:
> Inspector should not use #printOn: .
> It should use something like
> #ifNotRecursivePrintOnIfRecursivePrintRecursiveOnAndChopItOf:  :-)

> Vlastik

--
Terry
===========================================================
Terry Raymond       Smalltalk Professional Debug Package
Crafted Smalltalk   *Breakpoints* and *Watchpoints* for
80 Lazywood Ln.                  VW and ENVY/Developer
Tiverton, RI  02878
(401) 624-4517        traymond at craftedsmalltalk dot com
http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com
===========================================================


Thu, 07 Apr 2005 06:37:34 GMT  
 Inspector should be redesigned


Quote:
> OK, my proposal....
> I am not gonna fix it :)) Though I can.... See, how MS Visual Basic

Gee, and I can design the next killer app... but I'm not
going to.

What a lot of hot air.  Show us!

Quote:
> Watch list (their version of an inspector) works..... It is simple and
> smart... And they are avoiding the endless loop..

> Or look at Smalltalk MT inspectors....It works fine....
> That's the problem vith VW....there are several "well known" problems
> already a quite long time.

> On the other side, I think VW7 is a great product and CINCOM a great
> company.

> Vlastik

--
Terry
===========================================================
Terry Raymond       Smalltalk Professional Debug Package
Crafted Smalltalk   *Breakpoints* and *Watchpoints* for
80 Lazywood Ln.                  VW and ENVY/Developer
Tiverton, RI  02878
(401) 624-4517        traymond at craftedsmalltalk dot com
http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com
===========================================================


Thu, 07 Apr 2005 06:38:46 GMT  
 Inspector should be redesigned


Quote:
> Example: an Array has 4 entries.. The first entry contains number 3,
> the second one contains a symbol #whatever, the third one points to
> some object and the fourth one point to itself....
> To avoid andless loop when printing the selected entry in the text
> pane, we should have actually a TreeView window insted to show only
> some basic information about the object beeing pointed to by the entry
> and if the user wish, he/she can click on that node and go deeper
> through the structure... Thus, there will be no endless loop ...

These are two orthogonal issues.  One is an infinite loop in printOn: which
surfaces in the inspector, the other is whether the inspector should use
printOn: or not.  If I understand correctly, the VisualBasic approach is an
inspector without a text pane at all, so all one gets is a tree with simple
labels.  To find out defails, one is supposed to drill down the tree.  
Maybe this works for protecting users from themselves, but in some ways
it's rather like curing a headache by chopping off the head.  printOn: is a
very powerful thing in Smalltalk, because it's essentially a very simple
inspector plug-in protocol.  Any  newbie can write printOn: that would
print a meaningful summary of a complex object, something it would take a
lot of tree expanding to uncover.  Properly treating circularities in
printOn: is another thing, but it has nothing to do with the inspector
itself.

Quote:
> I don't agree. This would be an anarchistic approach, the same as
> Linux OS is build on.
> I like more the FreeBSD OS model much more....
> We can suggest changes, but we should not make them...

That depends on the definition of "suggest".  It is one thing to send a
request of what you want, another to send code that does what you want.  
Working code does a much better job of convincing other people--or
sometimes they don't need convincing, they just have different priorities.  
On the flip side, of course, they don't have to like your code even if you
are sending it.  Would this approach be autocratic enough? :)

--
Vassili Bykov [|] vassili "at" parcplace "dot" com
VisualWorks Engineering
[:s | s, s printString] value: '[:s | s, s printString] value: '



Thu, 07 Apr 2005 06:26:02 GMT  
 Inspector should be redesigned


.....

Quote:
>  Any  newbie can write printOn: that would
> print a meaningful summary of a complex object, something it would take a
> lot of tree expanding to uncover.  Properly treating circularities in
> printOn: is another thing, but it has nothing to do with the inspector
> itself.

Yes, it has. The inspector is using #printOn: , it should use some
specialized #printOnForInspector:

Quote:

> > I don't agree. This would be an anarchistic approach, the same as
> > Linux OS is build on.
> > I like more the FreeBSD OS model much more....
> > We can suggest changes, but we should not make them...

> That depends on the definition of "suggest".  It is one thing to send a
> request of what you want, another to send code that does what you want.
> Working code does a much better job of convincing other people--or
> sometimes they don't need convincing, they just have different priorities.

My code may not comply with future design plans of the designer in charge

Quote:
> On the flip side, of course, they don't have to like your code even if you
> are sending it.  Would this approach be autocratic enough? :)

Vlastik


Thu, 07 Apr 2005 07:04:04 GMT  
 Inspector should be redesigned



Quote:
> on the other hand, your test is kind of a pathological test.

> On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 15:24:02 -0400, "Vlastimil Adamovsky"

> >OK, my proposal....
> >I am not gonna fix it :)) Though I can.... See, how MS Visual Basic
> >Watch list (their version of an inspector) works..... It is simple and
> >smart... And they are avoiding the endless loop..

> >Or look at Smalltalk MT inspectors....It works fine....
> >That's the problem vith VW....there are several "well known" problems
> >already a quite long time.

> >On the other side, I think VW7 is a great product and CINCOM a great
> >company.

> >Vlastik

> >"Terry Raymond" <traymond-nospam-at-craftedsmalltalk-dot-com> wrote in



> >> > Inspector in VW should be redesigned.

> >> > Try this:

> >> > | a |

> >> >  a := OrderedCollection new.
> >> >  a add: a.
> >> >  a inspect

> >> > Vlastik

> >> Actually, the problem is that #printOn: ends up
> >> in a loop.  This is a well known problem.  Most
> >> fixes for this sacrifice its current usefulness.

> >> As long as you think it needs to be fixed, why not
> >> investigate it and propose a solution that fixes it
> >> and maintains its current usefulness for most
> >> situations.

> >> --
> >> Terry
> >> ===========================================================
> >> Terry Raymond       Smalltalk Professional Debug Package
> >> Crafted Smalltalk   *Breakpoints* and *Watchpoints* for
> >> 80 Lazywood Ln.                  VW and ENVY/Developer
> >> Tiverton, RI  02878
> >> (401) 624-4517        traymond at craftedsmalltalk dot com
> >> http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com
> >> ===========================================================

> <Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
> James Robertson
> Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk



Thu, 07 Apr 2005 07:04:39 GMT  
 Inspector should be redesigned



Quote:
> on the other hand, your test is kind of a pathological test.

I checked with Webster dictionary... Yes, you are right :)

Vlastik



Thu, 07 Apr 2005 07:09:53 GMT  
 
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