Smalltalk !!! 
Author Message
 Smalltalk !!!

Hi,

Now people are running on C# after Java.
Why not Smalltalk.
Not enough marketing ? or is Smalltalk Dead ?

Warren
Place4Oracle



Mon, 07 Feb 2005 03:52:07 GMT  
 Smalltalk !!!

Quote:

> Now people are running on C# after Java.
> Why not Smalltalk.
> Not enough marketing ? or is Smalltalk Dead ?

Somebody once told me there are only three reasons to hype a product:

1) The product is of low quality
2) Regardless of quality, your profit margin on the product is high
3) You're trying to supplant a stronger competitor's product

The best products are sold by word of mouth.  Have you ever seen an ad
for Rolls Royce?  No, because everybody already knows that it is the
finest automobile in the world.  You do, however, see many ads for
pickup trucks.  Trucks are a high-margin item for the manufacturers,
therefore reason 2.  Microsoft has been hyping Windows for years.
Reason 1.  Sun is hyping Java.  Reason 3.  MS is hyping C#.  Reason 3.

Astute buyers know to look beyond the hype.  IT people used to complain
about "Management by Magazine" wherein their managers were reading
PCWeek and basing the company's technical direction on what they read.
Either that's still going on or technical people are falling into the
same trap of listening to hype rather than doing their jobs by seeking
out the best technology to accomplish their company's goals.

Unfortunately, in the technology world, you can't be an aloof product
like RR and expect to survive.  Look at the Sony Betamax.  Smalltalk is
the best OO technology out there.  Let's hope Java whets people's
appetite for OO and when they get tired of the Big Macs of OO ( Java,
C#) they'll check out the filet mignon.

--
Gerald Meazell
E-Idetic Strategies
Dallas, TX



Mon, 07 Feb 2005 21:08:10 GMT  
 Smalltalk !!!

Quote:

> ... Let's hope Java whets people's appetite for OO and when they get
> tired of the Big Macs of OO ( Java, C#) they'll check out the filet
> mignon.

Well put. However I'm a little worried that once people see the problems
with Java, they will blame O-O in general, and throw away Smalltalk with
the bathwater.

-Panu Viljamaa



Tue, 08 Feb 2005 09:18:34 GMT  
 Smalltalk !!!

Quote:

> Well put. However I'm a little worried that once people see the problems
> with Java, they will blame O-O in general, and throw away Smalltalk with
> the bathwater.

Weren't those problems fixed in C#? ;-)

--
Gerald Meazell
E-Idetic Strategies
Dallas, TX



Tue, 08 Feb 2005 20:31:15 GMT  
 Smalltalk !!!
Not really sure whether hype or ubiquity scores highest results. If
something good is there it stands a good chance of being used eg the
bank next to university campus probably bags the students when they
have little money and retains them for years. Hype generally
demotivates - how many buy an answering machine to dissuade the double
glazing cold callers?

However in the world of programming languages it is the employers who
call the shots and compliance to regimes such as ISO 900x demanding
teams of people who can deliver analysis, designs, documentation,
code, tests, reports and the language is only a very small part of the
work required. The best programming language is not much use without
the very best, easy to use configuration management and documentation
tools etc. Generally the ubiquitous environments eg Visual
C++/Sourcesafe/Rational Rose etc have not got there without being very
good. C++ might not be the best language but teams can produce the
required products to time, to budget.

I suspect if Smalltalk is to survive much longer it will be neceesary
to automate basic software complete life cycle functionality
(including basic change control) with the programming tools (eg
browsers). These seem to have been missed out of most environments for
some reason? However professionals have to conform to standards and it
is unlikely that in the fullness of time environments not support life
cycle (or project management?) will last as financial thumbscrews ever
tighten.

IBM attempted this with their UML add on but probably too little too
late and far far too expensive for serious take up. Now is not too
soon to start...

Quote:


> > Now people are running on C# after Java.
> > Why not Smalltalk.
> > Not enough marketing ? or is Smalltalk Dead ?

> Somebody once told me there are only three reasons to hype a product:

> 1) The product is of low quality
> 2) Regardless of quality, your profit margin on the product is high
> 3) You're trying to supplant a stronger competitor's product

> The best products are sold by word of mouth.  Have you ever seen an ad
> for Rolls Royce?  No, because everybody already knows that it is the
> finest automobile in the world.  You do, however, see many ads for
> pickup trucks.  Trucks are a high-margin item for the manufacturers,
> therefore reason 2.  Microsoft has been hyping Windows for years.
> Reason 1.  Sun is hyping Java.  Reason 3.  MS is hyping C#.  Reason 3.

> Astute buyers know to look beyond the hype.  IT people used to complain
> about "Management by Magazine" wherein their managers were reading
> PCWeek and basing the company's technical direction on what they read.
> Either that's still going on or technical people are falling into the
> same trap of listening to hype rather than doing their jobs by seeking
> out the best technology to accomplish their company's goals.

> Unfortunately, in the technology world, you can't be an aloof product
> like RR and expect to survive.  Look at the Sony Betamax.  Smalltalk is
> the best OO technology out there.  Let's hope Java whets people's
> appetite for OO and when they get tired of the Big Macs of OO ( Java,
> C#) they'll check out the filet mignon.



Tue, 08 Feb 2005 22:46:24 GMT  
 Smalltalk !!!
I dunno. XP denigrates a lot of that process, and XP is catching on
pretty well.


Quote:

>Not really sure whether hype or ubiquity scores highest results. If
>something good is there it stands a good chance of being used eg the
>bank next to university campus probably bags the students when they
>have little money and retains them for years. Hype generally
>demotivates - how many buy an answering machine to dissuade the double
>glazing cold callers?

>However in the world of programming languages it is the employers who
>call the shots and compliance to regimes such as ISO 900x demanding
>teams of people who can deliver analysis, designs, documentation,
>code, tests, reports and the language is only a very small part of the
>work required. The best programming language is not much use without
>the very best, easy to use configuration management and documentation
>tools etc. Generally the ubiquitous environments eg Visual
>C++/Sourcesafe/Rational Rose etc have not got there without being very
>good. C++ might not be the best language but teams can produce the
>required products to time, to budget.

>I suspect if Smalltalk is to survive much longer it will be neceesary
>to automate basic software complete life cycle functionality
>(including basic change control) with the programming tools (eg
>browsers). These seem to have been missed out of most environments for
>some reason? However professionals have to conform to standards and it
>is unlikely that in the fullness of time environments not support life
>cycle (or project management?) will last as financial thumbscrews ever
>tighten.

>IBM attempted this with their UML add on but probably too little too
>late and far far too expensive for serious take up. Now is not too
>soon to start...



>> > Now people are running on C# after Java.
>> > Why not Smalltalk.
>> > Not enough marketing ? or is Smalltalk Dead ?

>> Somebody once told me there are only three reasons to hype a product:

>> 1) The product is of low quality
>> 2) Regardless of quality, your profit margin on the product is high
>> 3) You're trying to supplant a stronger competitor's product

>> The best products are sold by word of mouth.  Have you ever seen an ad
>> for Rolls Royce?  No, because everybody already knows that it is the
>> finest automobile in the world.  You do, however, see many ads for
>> pickup trucks.  Trucks are a high-margin item for the manufacturers,
>> therefore reason 2.  Microsoft has been hyping Windows for years.
>> Reason 1.  Sun is hyping Java.  Reason 3.  MS is hyping C#.  Reason 3.

>> Astute buyers know to look beyond the hype.  IT people used to complain
>> about "Management by Magazine" wherein their managers were reading
>> PCWeek and basing the company's technical direction on what they read.
>> Either that's still going on or technical people are falling into the
>> same trap of listening to hype rather than doing their jobs by seeking
>> out the best technology to accomplish their company's goals.

>> Unfortunately, in the technology world, you can't be an aloof product
>> like RR and expect to survive.  Look at the Sony Betamax.  Smalltalk is
>> the best OO technology out there.  Let's hope Java whets people's
>> appetite for OO and when they get tired of the Big Macs of OO ( Java,
>> C#) they'll check out the filet mignon.



Tue, 08 Feb 2005 23:49:10 GMT  
 Smalltalk !!!


[...]
Quote:
> I suspect if Smalltalk is to survive much longer it will be
neceesary
> to automate basic software complete life cycle functionality
> (including basic change control) with the programming tools (eg
> browsers). These seem to have been missed out of most
environments for
> some reason?

[...]

How about VA with Envy? Doesn't this do what you mean?

Andy



Wed, 09 Feb 2005 01:24:58 GMT  
 Smalltalk !!!


Quote:
>Hi,

>Now people are running on C# after Java.
>Why not Smalltalk.
>Not enough marketing ? or is Smalltalk Dead ?

>Warren
>Place4Oracle

Running on C# after Java, a good news to Smalltalk as I'd
interpret.
C# itself has no libs and is just one of languages that fit to
the .NET framework.
This as a coming main trend gives Smalltalk better chances to
promote itself if .NET is supported (or another words, the
dialect is .NET compatible). And .NET itself expands the idea of
byte-code and VM from Smalltalk.
Where C# is a choice, there Smalltalk is another one. Or, at
least, they can be born to work together.
It's said that VW7 has good support for .NET, I hope that
support will at last become a complet one.
So the situation with Java has passed away. But it seems to me
that few's noticed this.

Best regards,


---------------------------
An old amateur



Tue, 08 Feb 2005 05:43:07 GMT  
 Smalltalk !!!


Quote:
> I dunno. XP denigrates a lot of that process, and XP is catching on
> pretty well.

I thnk that part of our problem as Smalltalkers is that we expect everyone
to use our language because it is the best.  Yes, methodologies have
appeared that fit very well with Smalltalk.  The methodologies are still
looked upon as new and therefore are suspect. I think that what is needed is
for the tools to adapt as easily to existing (and well trusted
methodologies) as they do to XP

John Gale



Wed, 09 Feb 2005 05:06:04 GMT  
 Smalltalk !!!
Smalltalk adapts well to any methodology.  There are Forward and
Reverse tools that ship with VW (Advance is supported, and the DOME
goodie is there as well).  Store handles the version control for
development, and for deployment, an image and set of parcels can go
into any old repository.

I'm not sure what people mean when they say Smalltalk doesn't fit as
well.  As well as what?



Quote:


>> I dunno. XP denigrates a lot of that process, and XP is catching on
>> pretty well.

>I thnk that part of our problem as Smalltalkers is that we expect everyone
>to use our language because it is the best.  Yes, methodologies have
>appeared that fit very well with Smalltalk.  The methodologies are still
>looked upon as new and therefore are suspect. I think that what is needed is
>for the tools to adapt as easily to existing (and well trusted
>methodologies) as they do to XP

>John Gale




Wed, 09 Feb 2005 05:40:57 GMT  
 Smalltalk !!!

Quote:

>However in the world of programming languages it is the employers who
>call the shots and compliance to regimes such as ISO 900x demanding
>teams of people who can deliver analysis, designs, documentation,
>code, tests, reports and the language is only a very small part of the
>work required.

You need to get your facts straight. ISO does not demand any sort
of development methodology. What ISO demands is that you
document the methodology you have, along with any processes
for eveloving that methodoly and having everyone working at
the company sign off on that methodology.

For example, if you have a methodology that every two weeks
a persons code must be reviewed every two weeks, then every two
weeks you must sign a document that says your code has been
reviewed, and so must the people that reviewed your code.

I can't say that that is a particularly bad idea having suffered
at places where the methodology is folded spindled and mutilated
while at the same time managers claim that is not the case. Then
when something goes wrong they point their finger at you claiming you
violated the methodology.

The problem though is that even places claiming to follow ISO are not
folowing ISO. They are just lieing to the ISO auditors.



Wed, 09 Feb 2005 13:40:05 GMT  
 Smalltalk !!!

 >Hi,
 >
 >Now people are running on C# after Java.
 >Why not Smalltalk.
 >Not enough marketing ? or is Smalltalk Dead ?
 >
 >Warren
 >Place4Oracle
 >
 >
 >From technological point of view there's OO aspect which is common to
both worlds. That is problem decomposition into objects, creation of
object instances by templates - classes and mechanism for abstraction
known as inheritance. However I see the biggest gap is in philosophy how
objects "live". In Java, an application starts as something blind that
grows in functionality as the code is being performed. When there's need
for use of class, that class is attached /loaded/ in its compiled form
and then eventually an instance of object is created. Hence the form of
Java application as set of folders and .class files.
On the other hand, in Smalltalk, objects and so classes as well are
already there [in memory]. When developer adds new class to the system,
it is compiled and stored in memory ready to use. This results in fact
there's no single entry point. Just send a message to some object/class
and here we go. The imagined border between developing and running is
vanishing.

In today's world of retail software development, typical pathway is to
have development stage (writing code, debugging, testing), then there's
point the program is given version and is prepared for user and finally
there's runtime execution. But in Smalltalk there's huge theatre of
living objects. Starting an application merely means to click on
something so a message is being sent and thus something gets created and
so on... I was always tempted to have user level of operating system in
Smalltalk, so for example harddisk would be one big virtual memory, file
would be just name for object stored for later use. In fact any physical
part of computer (see how deep it goes..) could be virtualized into
presence of particular objects in this vast playground...

--
Kamil



Wed, 09 Feb 2005 22:06:51 GMT  
 Smalltalk !!!
Eventually Smalltalk and similar including Java will develop into a
language that will be an adaption of Smalltalk's fast typing
capabilities. It probably will emphasize object creation to an extent
of an object having a component with just one of its relationship's
beeing its class. SELF is a good example...:-)

Developers will have to deal with some kind of versioning, ENVY just
beeing the most effective amongst OO languages these days (Smalltalk,
C++, Java), but not quite ready for the future yet. Why?

ENVY, even more advanced than standard PVCS with flat-directory-kind
of version control deployment, still can't handle aspect or
component-oriented versioning where the versioning base is unknown.

Versioning without that base is quite common nowadays with WAR and
J2EE...

Cheers,
Martin F. Kraft


Quote:


> [...]
> > I suspect if Smalltalk is to survive much longer it will be
>  neceesary
> > to automate basic software complete life cycle functionality
> > (including basic change control) with the programming tools (eg
> > browsers). These seem to have been missed out of most
>  environments for
> > some reason?
> [...]

> How about VA with Envy? Doesn't this do what you mean?

> Andy



Mon, 21 Feb 2005 07:03:59 GMT  
 Smalltalk !!!

Quote:
> Eventually Smalltalk and similar including Java will develop into a
> language that will be an adaption of Smalltalk's fast typing
> capabilities. It probably will emphasize object creation to an extent
> of an object having a component with just one of its relationship's
> beeing its class. SELF is a good example...:-)

I'm not sure what you mean by "fast typing capabilities"?

One day maybe we can get beyond having programmers maintain type
information by hand - type inferencing seems to work for OCaml.

Until then maybe I can sneakily use Nice in place of Java.



Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:31:33 GMT  
 Smalltalk !!!
By "fast typing capabilities" I mean

    no type :== fast typing

having no object type or class constraint means I can type much faster
into my keyboard: lets worry about the kind/class of output when it is
put out.

A good one for large scale projects and their interfaces to other
platforms:-)

Cheers,
Martin F. Kraft

Quote:


> > Eventually Smalltalk and similar including Java will develop into a
> > language that will be an adaption of Smalltalk's fast typing
> > capabilities. It probably will emphasize object creation to an extent
> > of an object having a component with just one of its relationship's
> > beeing its class. SELF is a good example...:-)

> I'm not sure what you mean by "fast typing capabilities"?
> [...]



Fri, 25 Feb 2005 05:30:48 GMT  
 
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