Integrated debugger in Oberon? 
Author Message
 Integrated debugger in Oberon?

: The Oberon compiler for the Amiga (Oberon-2) comes with a source level
: de{*filter*}.
:
: Peter Braeuer

may be interresting for the ones who have amigas... but what about
oberon-system users on mac, dos, sun or whatever else :-?

daniel



Sun, 29 Oct 1995 17:28:27 GMT  
 Integrated debugger in Oberon?

Quote:

>: The Oberon compiler for the Amiga (Oberon-2) comes with a source level
>: de{*filter*}.
>:
>: Peter Braeuer

>may be interresting for the ones who have amigas... but what about
>oberon-system users on mac, dos, sun or whatever else :-?

The Oberon compiler for the Amiga is a commercial product. If You wan't
a de{*filter*} this time You have to wait for a commercial compiler on Your
machine (or You buy an Amiga: "Only Amiga makes it possible").

Sven



Mon, 30 Oct 1995 02:41:35 GMT  
 Integrated debugger in Oberon?

:

: >: The Oberon compiler for the Amiga (Oberon-2) comes with a source level
: >: de{*filter*}.
: >:
: >: Peter Braeuer

:
: >may be interresting for the ones who have amigas... but what about
: >oberon-system users on mac, dos, sun or whatever else :-?
:
: The Oberon compiler for the Amiga is a commercial product. If You wan't
: a de{*filter*} this time You have to wait for a commercial compiler on Your
: machine (or You buy an Amiga: "Only Amiga makes it possible").

as it looks, there won't be any commercial version on other computers than
the amiga, because with and gutknecht won't give permission for an oberon
language without the oberon system.

p.s.: i used to have an amiga, but sold it, when it didn't make it
possible anymore :'-)

daniel



Mon, 30 Oct 1995 18:30:33 GMT  
 Integrated debugger in Oberon?

Quote:
> : The Oberon compiler for the Amiga (Oberon-2) comes with a source level

> may be interresting for the ones who have amigas... but what about

Simple: they can buy an Amiga! ;-)

Martin
--





Mon, 30 Oct 1995 20:44:27 GMT  
 Integrated debugger in Oberon?

(Gerhard D. (SBORK)) says:

Quote:

>as it looks, there won't be any commercial version on other computers than
>the amiga, because with and gutknecht won't give permission for an oberon
>language without the oberon system.

Did they say that, or do you simply assume that?

If it is true, then Oberon will never be more than a toy. Restricting the
use of a programming language to a nonstandard environment with
severe restrictions is a sure way to kill it.




Mon, 30 Oct 1995 22:06:36 GMT  
 Integrated debugger in Oberon?

Quote:

> as it looks, there won't be any commercial version on other computers than
> the amiga, because with and gutknecht won't give permission for an oberon
> language without the oberon system.

Does it matter whether they give permission?  Are programming
languages copyrightable in Europe now?

                                        Thomas.



Tue, 31 Oct 1995 00:53:09 GMT  
 Integrated debugger in Oberon?

 >For pedagogical reasons, it may indeed be desirable to not have a
 >de{*filter*} in a teaching system.  I can certainly see arguments in favor

As a teacher, I disagree.  Having a source level de{*filter*} is a very valuable
instructional tool.  Funny, but I have to make my students use it.  I use
the de{*filter*} to help them visualize what is happening in their program.

 >of this.  However, what's appropriate for a teaching system and what's
 >appropriate for a production software development environment are two
 >different things.

I disagree.  What is good is good - period.  Maybe I would have a different
attitude if I were in the CS department, but I am trying to teach my
students how to make the most effective use of the computer, and a
de{*filter*} is a powerful tool.

Dr. James P. Henley Jr.
Department of Chemical Engineering
Auburn University



Mon, 30 Oct 1995 23:30:13 GMT  
 Integrated debugger in Oberon?

Quote:


>(Gerhard D. (SBORK)) says:

>>as it looks, there won't be any commercial version on other computers than
>>the amiga, because with and gutknecht won't give permission for an oberon
>>language without the oberon system.

>Did they say that, or do you simply assume that?

>If it is true, then Oberon will never be more than a toy. Restricting the
>use of a programming language to a nonstandard environment with
>severe restrictions is a sure way to kill it.



It's just an assumption. There are several companies distributing Oberon
compilers which don't have the system distributed with it. One of them even
compiles to C as intermediate code! So neither Gutknecht nor Wirth would
restrict the usage of the language to just the system. Of course, with the
system you get portability over all major platforms.
Gerhard, please be more careful about posting such wild guesses!


        Institute for Computer Systems
        Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH)
        CH-8092 Zurich, Switzerland



Tue, 31 Oct 1995 00:00:49 GMT  
 Integrated debugger in Oberon?

Quote:

>> may be interresting for the ones who have amigas... but what about

>Simple: they can buy an Amiga! ;-)

>Martin

"Let them eat cake!" cried Marie Antoinette, oblivious to the needs of the
masses.  Not to pick on Martin particularly, but recently the tone of
the Oberon faithful has been sounding more and more out of touch with reality,
and I don't think I can keep up my interest in Oberon much longer.

I am saddened to learn of the attitude about multi-tasking.  I don't see how
I'm going to be able to use this nice language for what I need to do.  I
can bear some shortcomings of a new language, as long as there is hope that
things will improve.  I see no indications of such, and so, with regret,
I must move on to other brave new worlds.

Dr. James P. Henley Jr.
Department of Chemical Engineering
Auburn University



Tue, 31 Oct 1995 00:23:10 GMT  
 Integrated debugger in Oberon?
: >(Gerhard D. (SBORK)) says:
: >>
: >>as it looks, there won't be any commercial version on other computers than
: >>the amiga, because with and gutknecht won't give permission for an oberon
: >>language without the oberon system.
: >
: It's just an assumption. There are several companies distributing Oberon
: compilers which don't have the system distributed with it. One of them even
: compiles to C as intermediate code! So neither Gutknecht nor Wirth would
: restrict the usage of the language to just the system. Of course, with the
: system you get portability over all major platforms.
: Gerhard, please be more careful about posting such wild guesses!

Right! an assumption.. but i must say that i was quite sure of that one :-).
the fact is, that i asked everyone about an oberon-system-less oberon-language
and couldn't find any ?!?!
so if YOU know a (commercial) oberon-language packet without the system
for MSDOS, please let me know.

p.s.: oberon on oberon system only would indeed be nothing more than a toy!

daniel gerhard



Tue, 31 Oct 1995 01:56:13 GMT  
 Integrated debugger in Oberon?

Quote:
>p.s.: oberon on oberon system only would indeed be nothing more than a toy!

>daniel gerhard

Gee, I'm sure glad the all our *very* impressed customers don't realize
all this software's being prototyped on a toy... :-)

-greg
---
Greg DeLozier/Senior Scientific Analyst/L{*filter*}Defense Systems



Tue, 31 Oct 1995 07:32:57 GMT  
 Integrated debugger in Oberon?

   [ original message deleted ]

Quote:
>  "Let them eat cake!" cried Marie Antoinette, oblivious to the needs of the
>  masses.  Not to pick on Martin particularly, but recently the tone of
>  the Oberon faithful has been sounding more and more out of touch with reality,
>  and I don't think I can keep up my interest in Oberon much longer.

>  I am saddened to learn of the attitude about multi-tasking.  I don't see how
>  I'm going to be able to use this nice language for what I need to do.  I
>  can bear some shortcomings of a new language, as long as there is hope that
>  things will improve.  I see no indications of such, and so, with regret,
>  I must move on to other brave new worlds.

>  Dr. James P. Henley Jr.
>  Department of Chemical Engineering
>  Auburn University

The lack of multitasking is due to the environment, not the language.
It is true that "single-process multitasking" was one of the
(perhaps unfortunate) goals of project Oberon, and I feel it
would be quite difficult to integrate into the Oberon environment,
Oberon the language is an elegant and clever alternative to
the languages we have been using to date.

I know that from SPARC Oberon it is possible to call the fork()
function, but I don't know if it works or has limitations.
In other words, where Oberon is built on top of an operating
system that has multitasking, you are probably going to find
some support, albeit non-standard.  You will find that
the Oberon compilers (without the environment) will generally
offer support for the underlying O/S -- if the O/S has
preemptive multitasking, then the compiler will support it.

A quick look at the book "Project Oberon" has me firmly
convinced that porting the compiler is a very simple task,
as long as you have another Oberon running so that you
can cross-compile.  The book contains practically all
of the source code (in Oberon of course!) and the compiler
source goes right down to the object level.  Publishing
this is a very clever (and developer-friendly) move, which
will undoubtedly see Oberon ported to just about every
computer known.  I myself will attempt to port the
Oberon O/S to the Amiga -- the safe-pointers in Oberon
mean that the host computer can do without an MMU
for most things!

The people involved with the Oberon project are also
very helpful and open -- I sent them mail asking
about the Ceres-3 workstation, and they air-mailled
me detailed shematics!  It looks quite easy to build
and is about 1/3 the speed of a SparcStationII !
I don't know if I will attempt to build the computer,
but with the excellent information given, and the
standard of the language, I have been won over to
the Oberon camp.

Cheers,

Andrew McVeigh,


-- sune is not working properly!

--
*****

Andrew McVeigh



Tue, 31 Oct 1995 23:04:16 GMT  
 Integrated debugger in Oberon?

Quote:

>computer known.  I myself will attempt to port the
>Oberon O/S to the Amiga -- the safe-pointers in Oberon
>mean that the host computer can do without an MMU
>for most things!

There is alreadz such a project at ETH. One of the developers
of M2Amiga is porting the Oberon System to the Amiga. And a
standalone compiloer (commercial) is available since two years
now.

Quote:
>Andrew McVeigh,

---
+++hartmut



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