Debugging (response 2) 
Author Message
 Debugging (response 2)

Quote:
> Edgar Knapp (who is just about as rabid as I) says:
> (regarding Thomas' (of ETH) post:
>>emacs and gdb are unlikely. Windows are RESIZABLE and MOVABLE. What you
>>probably mean is overlapping windows instead of tiling windows. These you
>>probably will not get. Honestly, why would you want overlapping windows?
>>The algorithms to handle them do not correspond to the additional profit
>>you get from the overlapping windows.
> First of all, Oberon viewers are not windows. Secondly, viewers are
> not freely resizable. Pray tell how to change the width of a viewer?
> Viewers are not freely movable either. How do you center a viewer on
> the screen, for instance? Viewers do overlap, though. If you open a
> second viewer in a track, the first one is partly obscured.

Hmmm, borders.  Moves.  Resizes.  Scrolls (in a fashion).  If it
walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and smells like a duck, must be
a duck.  Please describe what you think windows are?  A window does
not have to be freely moveable.

The width of a viewer is changeable via the Viewers modules (I
believe, from memory).

Quote:
> Please think before responding.

Hey! Hey!  I've got the lock on the acerbic voice in this group!  And
besides, this is too close to my "Go back to BASIC"(tm) statement.  I
am starting trademark infringement proceedings as soon as I finish my
class action against MS, Borland & Zortech for telling us they have
C++ compilers.  But, when you open the package, the warranty says
(basically): "You have just purchased some diskettes that we warrant
against defects.  It is nothing else".

Quote:
> How can you tell how much I profit from "real" windows (such as on
> the Mac or under X)? For instance, I arrange my (20 or 30) windows so
> that I can at all times get most of them foremost with a single
> click. Have you ever tried that in Oberon? What kind of excuse is:
> "Sorry, the algorithms are too complex"?

"Real" is another subjective term.  My, my.  You are not a very
objective person, are you?

If you indeed have 20 or 30 windows on your screen, then you are not
the normal person.  Most 'computer users' (the point of all the
software we write) only operate on one program at a time.  The do not
understand multi-tasking, multiple windows, or any other techie terms
of their ilk.

Even if they had a large monitor, people generally (from what I have
seen) do not like looking at a small region on the screen, so if they
are working (even with multiple programs loaded) will zoom the window
to the full screen.  In this case, tiled or overlapping makes no
difference.

In reality, tiled is no better or worse than overlapping.  Just
different.  The problem is that people think that 'overlapping' is
newer & somehow better.

The point that Thomas was making is this:  Since most people will
zoom a window anyway, the supposed benefit of overlapping windows is
not worth the extra programming effort.

If people worked only with small windows, and consistently shuffled them
on their desktop, then perhaps it would be beneficial.

Taylor "Defender of the Faith" Hutt
Metal rules the land.



Sun, 22 Oct 1995 09:22:51 GMT  
 Debugging (response 2)
: If you indeed have 20 or 30 windows on your screen, then you are not
: the normal person.  Most 'computer users' (the point of all the
: software we write) only operate on one program at a time.  The do not
: understand multi-tasking, multiple windows, or any other techie terms
: of their ilk.

Of course he isn't.
Proof:
- uses netnews;
- doesn't complain about having to use multiple-button mice;
- knows oberon.
. :-)

But Oberon isn't intended for the normal person. It's for people who make
their own software. They happen to have lots of windows open, and even
understand multi-tasking & multiple windows.

: Even if they had a large monitor, people generally (from what I have
: seen) do not like looking at a small region on the screen, so if they
: are working (even with multiple programs loaded) will zoom the window
: to the full screen.  In this case, tiled or overlapping makes no
: difference.

But fast switching between windows is very important. The oberon system
currently has no way to do that (though writing a program that does just that
should be trivial).

: In reality, tiled is no better or worse than overlapping.  Just
: different.  The problem is that people think that 'overlapping' is
: newer & somehow better.

Overlapping windows make it possible to organize what you want to see better.
That makes them better for experienced users who have to do many things at
concurrently.

Stephan Eggermont
silicon rules the world



Tue, 24 Oct 1995 18:56:37 GMT  
 Debugging (response 2)

Quote:

>> Edgar Knapp (who is just about as rabid as I) says:
>> First of all, Oberon viewers are not windows. Secondly, viewers are
>> not freely resizable. Pray tell how to change the width of a viewer?
>> Viewers are not freely movable either. How do you center a viewer on
>> the screen, for instance? Viewers do overlap, though. If you open a
>> second viewer in a track, the first one is partly obscured.
>Hmmm, borders.  Moves.  Resizes.  Scrolls (in a fashion).  If it
>walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and smells like a duck, must be
>a duck.  Please describe what you think windows are?  A window does
>not have to be freely moveable.

There is a reason why Oberon "windows" were called viewers. Because
they are different.

Quote:
>The width of a viewer is changeable via the Viewers modules (I
>believe, from memory).

Sure, the offset of teh text in the printed page can be changed as
well. But the effort is takes to do so makes it hardly worth my while.

Quote:
>> How can you tell how much I profit from "real" windows (such as on
>> the Mac or under X)? For instance, I arrange my (20 or 30) windows so
>> that I can at all times get most of them foremost with a single
>> click. Have you ever tried that in Oberon? What kind of excuse is:
>> "Sorry, the algorithms are too complex"?
>If you indeed have 20 or 30 windows on your screen, then you are not
>the normal person.  Most 'computer users' (the point of all the
>software we write) only operate on one program at a time.  The do not
>understand multi-tasking, multiple windows, or any other techie terms
>of their ilk.
[...]
>The point that Thomas was making is this:  Since most people will
>zoom a window anyway, the supposed benefit of overlapping windows is
>not worth the extra programming effort.

I did not say that "real" (and please note the quotes this time)
windows are better, I said that they are better for me. And that is
why I want them. Furthermore, I don't seem to be alone with this
sentiment either.

Edgar

--

Purdue University                      
Department of Computer Sciences         +1 (317) 494-6028 (voice)
West Lafayette, IN 47907-1398           +1 (317) 494-0739  (fax)



Wed, 25 Oct 1995 03:52:53 GMT  
 Debugging (response 2)

Quote:
Taylor Hutt writes:
> Most 'computer users' (the point of all the
> software we write) only operate on one program at a time.  The do not
> understand multi-tasking, multiple windows, or any other techie terms
> of their ilk.

That's not my experience.

I manage a couple of dozen Macs in an office of non-technical people.  You're
right that they wouldn't know the term "multi-tasking" if they fell over it,
but that doesn't stop them from regularly using two or three programs at the
same time.  If I suddenly told them that they couldn't open more than one
document or program at a time I'd have a mutiny on my hands.



Thu, 26 Oct 1995 15:23:09 GMT  
 
 [ 6 post ] 

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