Request Editing/criticism re. Oberon new-users 
Author Message
 Request Editing/criticism re. Oberon new-users

Quote:

> I intend e-mailing this to URLs in the Soros Open Society Foundation.
> So it's mostly for non-technical readers.

> I'm requesting input/criticism/spell-check; even a re-write.
> And ideas of other organisations who could move some s{*filter*}hardware
> to harness some wasted human IQ.
> All Oberon users benefit from an increased user base.

[SNIP]

Quote:
> Thanks for any input,
>   Chris Glur.

Good effort. One problem besides collecting and transfering
the HW will be selecting the most appropriate people there.

--
moc dot slupofni at norebo - please revert the sequence

Carpe Diem!



Thu, 27 May 2004 20:51:25 GMT  
 Request Editing/criticism re. Oberon new-users

Quote:
> As shown in international competitions, russians have great computer
> programming skills.  The present and near future economic conditions
> in ex-soviet countries puts 'main stream' personal computers out of the
> reach of its citizens.  Microsoft and Intel have together succeeded in driving
> the 'got to have a bigger' illusion, of computer users in the G7 nations;
> to the extent that disposing of older models has become a problem.

Hello Chris!

I am russian and have great computer programming skills, :). I also like Oberon
moreover I began with this language at the 90th (with Mithril Oberon-2 system --
russian conterpart of Oberon system 3). It was really great system&language in the
begining of 90th that greatly affects on my programming skills. Thank you very
much for your care about ex-soviet programmers, however I could say that even not
programmers  (f.i. scientists) are in the reach to buy main-stream computers in
Russia today, :)). In spite of my loving relations to Oberon I will never back to
this system, not saying about other programmers (and never will use 386/486
dinosaurs) .

best regards,
Noel



Sun, 30 May 2004 19:25:02 GMT  
 Request Editing/criticism re. Oberon new-users

Quote:
> > As shown in international competitions, russians have great computer
> > programming skills.  The present and near future economic conditions
> > in ex-soviet countries puts 'main stream' personal computers out of the
> > reach of its citizens.  Microsoft and Intel have together succeeded in driving
> > the 'got to have a bigger' illusion, of computer users in the G7 nations;
> > to the extent that disposing of older models has become a problem.

> Hello Chris!

> I am russian and have great computer programming skills, :). I also like
> Oberon
> moreover I began with this language at the 90th (with Mithril Oberon-2
> system --
> russian conterpart of Oberon system 3). It was really great
> system&language in the
> begining of 90th that greatly affects on my programming skills. Thank you
> very
> much for your care about ex-soviet programmers, however I could say that
> even not
> programmers  (f.i. scientists) are in the reach to buy main-stream
> computers in
> Russia today, :)). In spite of my loving relations to Oberon I will never
> back to
> this system, not saying about other programmers (and never will use 386/486
> dinosaurs) .

You've lit up a fascinating but not discussed fact:
  programming with Oberon-2 gives little insight into the power of ETH
  system 3.   For example the cording of the 3 button mouse, is not
  dependant on Oberon-2.  I've asked myself how did they get S3
  so good.   My conclusion is that a common (socio psychological) factor
  which created the 'optimum' Oberon-2 syntax also created the various
  other aspects of ETH S3.    I.e. there are some universally applicable
  design principles which are giving good results to different design
  decisions.

I see you post via Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; I) ?
Such a monster could never keep up with my productivity on a 'dinosaur'
with native-oberon.  I could never go BACK to WinNT & Mozilla 4.6 !

Re. ex-soviet: I'm thinking of school children and people in the small
towns.   But electronic communications is needed to get full value.
I understand Fido-net is common in Russia ?
And of course I expect them to also contribute effort !
Just look what the linux community achieved.
Unfortunately after 70 years of Marxism, few ex-soviets have
motivation to contribute - by my observation.

Chris Glur.



Wed, 02 Jun 2004 04:50:34 GMT  
 Request Editing/criticism re. Oberon new-users

Quote:

> > > As shown in international competitions, russians have great computer
> > > programming skills.  The present and near future economic conditions
> > > in ex-soviet countries puts 'main stream' personal computers out of the
> > > reach of its citizens.  Microsoft and Intel have together succeeded in driving
> > > the 'got to have a bigger' illusion, of computer users in the G7 nations;
> > > to the extent that disposing of older models has become a problem.

> > Hello Chris!

> > I am russian and have great computer programming skills, :). I also like
> > Oberon
> > moreover I began with this language at the 90th (with Mithril Oberon-2
> > system --
> > russian conterpart of Oberon system 3). It was really great
> > system&language in the
> > begining of 90th that greatly affects on my programming skills. Thank you
> > very
> > much for your care about ex-soviet programmers, however I could say that
> > even not
> > programmers  (f.i. scientists) are in the reach to buy main-stream
> > computers in
> > Russia today, :)). In spite of my loving relations to Oberon I will never
> > back to
> > this system, not saying about other programmers (and never will use 386/486
> > dinosaurs) .

> You've lit up a fascinating but not discussed fact:
>   programming with Oberon-2 gives little insight into the power of ETH
>   system 3.   For example the cording of the 3 button mouse, is not
>   dependant on Oberon-2.  I've asked myself how did they get S3
>   so good.   My conclusion is that a common (socio psychological) factor
>   which created the 'optimum' Oberon-2 syntax also created the various
>   other aspects of ETH S3.    I.e. there are some universally applicable
>   design principles which are giving good results to different design
>   decisions.

Mithril was comercial system like ETH S3 with 3 button mouse (idea that you can use
mouse for 9 different operation -- not only for click and double-click -- is great), 2
track windowing system (however in difference with S3 all windows may dragged freely
like in Windows, and whole UI was more friendly than original S3 UI), commands in the
manner of MODULE.PROCEDURE, all is text and MVC paradigms,  I wrote GUI builder for it
like in S3 etc. It was nice and even more productive than S3. Unfortunately it died.
As to S3 I tried to move to it after Mithril however it was not convinient for me that
time. Unprofessionality of S3 is evident. However everybody can get used to anything.
I adore S3 for its flexibility, I have never seen more flexible system than S3.
Michael Franz's paper dedicated to Wirth said good enough about advantages of S3.
Really, Dr. Wirth unfortunatly positionated like scientists not like businessman, and
therefore S3 always be student project in spite of its progressive ideas inside. I
dream about Oberon like system written in Java, by this way all ideas of S3 could get
popular color. However I realize that  this way goes to monsteroity of the system. On
the other hand it could be good ETH student project that rebirth renown of ETH and
could be main-stream system in the future.  It is not hippy (budda, fido) way, I know,
:)).

Quote:

> I see you post via Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; I) ?
> Such a monster could never keep up with my productivity on a 'dinosaur'
> with native-oberon.  I could never go BACK to WinNT & Mozilla 4.6 !

You could notice that I do not use M$ IE. I do not like all M$ and M$ related things
as you. However today M$ Windows is the only platform where you can find any program
as user and any library as programmer that you need. Can I write comercial
server-side, business, multi-media applications, etc. in S3 now?  You may be confused
by the "comercial" word, however as russian programmer, to be able to buy "main-stream
computers" and live in general, I MUST write "comercial" things. "Comercial" and
"Monsteroity" words come together: in order to do comercial things I have to add all
possible possibilities  to the system to achive maximum convinience for user that goes
to monsteroity. So lack of monsteroity as system advantage goes to lack of comercial
as system disadvantage IMHO. You can track Java way in the subject: it was small
enough in the first version, however could not be used in application development
(only applets) and now It is the monster however has 10 millions developers. And
Blackbox comercial counterpart of S3 is much more monster than S3, however It will
never be so popular as Delphi because it is not enough "monster" :)).

Quote:

> Re. ex-soviet: I'm thinking of school children and people in the small
> towns.

One of the main motivation to buy computers here in Russia for people (whenever thay
are in smal towns or big cities -- I am origianally from small town) is to play
"main-stream" games, and 386/486 are not suit for it.  Moreover It is able to buy
second-hand pentium-class computer here only for 100$ except of monitor, so if you
could organize contribution of "out-of-date" 15"monitors for, to say, 50$, it could be
great contribution for evalution IT in Russia, :). To buy computer with the price of
TV, who could refuse this, :).

Quote:
> But electronic communications is needed to get full value.

 If you offer S3 for using Internet I can say that paiing for Internet is much biger
problem here than buing computer, and S3 can not help this.

Quote:

> I understand Fido-net is common in Russia ?

It was common. I know some Fido-fans today, however all they use it from 80th-90th,
and if Fido-net grows in Russia, it is considered only as additional news-groups.

Quote:

> And of course I expect them to also contribute effort !
> Just look what the linux community achieved.
> Unfortunately after 70 years of Marxism, few ex-soviets have
> motivation to contribute - by my observation.

There are much Linux fans here in Russia (much of them Fido-fans). However they are
all "C" fans, so you could not expect for them Oberon contribution, since these
languages are on the different sides of barricades, :)). And Marxism is not in
connection, in spite of Oberon is much more marxist system then Linux, :)).

regards,
Noel



Fri, 04 Jun 2004 18:31:23 GMT  
 Request Editing/criticism re. Oberon new-users

Quote:

> You've lit up a fascinating but not discussed fact:
>   programming with Oberon-2 gives little insight into the power of ETH
>   system 3.   For example the cording of the 3 button mouse, is not
>   dependant on Oberon-2.  I've asked myself how did they get S3
>   so good.   My conclusion is that a common (socio psychological) factor
>   which created the 'optimum' Oberon-2 syntax also created the various
>   other aspects of ETH S3.    I.e. there are some universally applicable
>   design principles which are giving good results to different design
>   decisions.

> I see you post via Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; I) ?
> Such a monster could never keep up with my productivity on a 'dinosaur'
> with native-oberon.  I could never go BACK to WinNT & Mozilla 4.6 !

> Re. ex-soviet: I'm thinking of school children and people in the small
> towns.   But electronic communications is needed to get full value.
> I understand Fido-net is common in Russia ?
> And of course I expect them to also contribute effort !
> Just look what the linux community achieved.
> Unfortunately after 70 years of Marxism, few ex-soviets have
> motivation to contribute - by my observation.

> Chris Glur.

Chris, there are two variances in your letter.
“Good programming skills(so you mention russian professionals)
and “school children” – that means novices.
My opinion – programming is a real profession. Like physician.
And increasing of user base and support for russian professionals are
definitely different.

Weak spots of your project:
Let we try to equip one million of users of 150 million populated
Russia. You should to transport at least 1 million of system units and
monitors(?), unsupported by producer, without technical service net
able to repair so ancient hardware in Russia. It’s so expensive
and so unreliable in use.
The best way is – to develop a modern and low-cost hardware,
something like handhelds, at <200 $  consumer price. With appropriate
software(Oberon? Why not?) it can be reachable for low income people.
Thanks. Alys.

PS/ Now, we, russian professionals, have any modern hardware, but not
any projects, or orders for job. It is a real problem.



Sat, 05 Jun 2004 00:17:03 GMT  
 Request Editing/criticism re. Oberon new-users

Quote:

> Mithril was comercial system like ETH S3 with 3 button mouse (idea that
> you can use
> mouse for 9 different operation -- not only for click and double-click --
> is great), 2
> track windowing system (however in difference with S3 all windows may
> dragged freely
> like in Windows, and whole UI was more friendly than original S3 UI),
> commands in the
> manner of MODULE.PROCEDURE, all is text and MVC paradigms,  I
> wrote GUI builder for it
> like in S3 etc. It was nice and even more productive than S3.
> Unfortunately it died.

Mithril must have been a direct *COPY* of S3, because the S3 mousing
has no connection with oberon, and could be used on any system.
Also the "2 track windowing .. dragged freely etc."  If I'm wearing the
same hat, shoes, and shirt as you, then I'm trying to reverse engineer you.
Which is OK.

So why did Mithril die ?  Was it able to use cheap hardware like S3 ?
Would a free OS have more chance to spread ?
I don't want to kill an attempt at a russian 'oberon', by competition ?
Or is it really dead already ?  Did it use Cyrillic (only) script ?

Quote:
> One of the main motivation to buy computers here in Russia for people
> (whenever thay
> are in smal towns or big cities -- I am origianally from small town) is to
> play
> "main-stream" games, and 386/486 are not suit for it.  Moreover It is able
> to buy
> second-hand pentium-class computer here only for 100$ except of monitor,
> so if you
> could organize contribution of "out-of-date" 15"monitors for, to say, 50$,
> it could be
> great contribution for evalution IT in Russia, :). To buy computer with
> the price of
> TV, who could refuse this, :).

I think you know:
  1. monitor technology is NOT fast changing like computer technology.
  2. transport is more problematic for monitor than 'box'.
These 2 facts mean there are not cheap "out-of-date" 15"monitors.

Quote:
> > But electronic communications is needed to get full value.

>  If you offer S3 for using Internet I can say that payng for Internet is
> much biger
> problem here than buing computer, and S3 can not help this.

When I was in Bulgaria and Russia/Udmurtia, I saw that there was
a functioning telephone system and local calls were free.

Quote:

> > I understand Fido-net is common in Russia ?

> It was common. I know some Fido-fans today, however all they use it from
> 80th-90th,
> and if Fido-net grows in Russia, it is considered only as additional
> news-groups.

Fido-net is a transport mechanism. You and other russians need to stop
trying to ape the americans (using an 8 cylinder one ton automobile
to move one person) !!  Try to be resourcefull. Work from 1st principles.
Do you know the concept of 'bulletin board' which existed for many
years, before normal people had internet connection ?

Quote:

> > And of course I expect them to also contribute effort !
> > Just look what the linux community achieved.
> > Unfortunately after 70 years of Marxism, few ex-soviets have
> > motivation to contribute - by my observation.
> There are much Linux fans here in Russia (much of them Fido-fans).
> However they are
> all "C" fans, so you could not expect for them Oberon contribution, since
> these
> languages are on the different sides of barricades, :)). And Marxism is
> not in
> connection, in spite of Oberon is much more marxist system then Linux, :)).

That's good Linux and S3 can cooperate, to the benefit of both.
We both repect open standards.
The one who can't afford a Linux box can use S3, and his Linux friend
will cooperate to make Fido-net utilities.

Marxism is much 'in connection', by having removed independant initiative.
Thanks for special info about Mithril !

I'm leaving the strange characters which you sent ?

Quote:
> Chris, there are two variances in your letter.
> &#8220;Good programming skills(so you mention russian professionals)
> and &#8220;school children&#8221; &#8211; that means novices.
> My opinion &#8211; programming is a real profession. Like physician.
> And increasing of user base and support for russian professionals are
> definitely different.

Most will just be users.  Ten programmers can support a thousand
users.   There are plenty bright students who can improve their
skills and potential for later life, who don't need to be professionals.

Quote:
> Weak spots of your project:
> Let we try to equip one million of users of 150 million populated
> Russia. You should to transport at least 1 million of system units and
> monitors(?), unsupported by producer, without technical service net
> able to repair so ancient hardware in Russia. It&#8217;s so expensive
> and so unreliable in use.

'Ancient hardware' means 5 to 10 years old. These are easier to repair
(yet not as easy as 20 year old technology) than today's technology.
Ball-pens, cigarettes and computers don't get repaired ?
If a few schools, clubs, libraries across the country can offer some
members e-mail, news-groups, http-by-email, it can make a social
impact.   Some professionals ...doctors, engineers can communicate
with colleages etc.

Quote:
> The best way is &#8211; to develop a modern and low-cost hardware,
> something like handhelds, at <200 $  consumer price. With appropriate
> software(Oberon? Why not?) it can be reachable for low income people.

This is the task for the most competent research organisations of G7.

  Bringing together:
*  the development/charity/aid organisation(s),
*  the problematic, redundant hardware needing to be disposed of,
*  the software - Oberon - which can use redundant hardware,
      is relatively easy.
 I hope.

If some find it succesfull, it will automatically expand, independant of
the original development organisation(s).
Cheap, redundant computers will continue to exist, as long as the WinTel
farce continues.

The reason it may fail is because it lacks the herd appeal of WinTel.

Quote:
> PS/ Now, we, russian professionals, have any modern hardware, but not
> any projects, or orders for job. It is a real problem.

Perhaps you could provide one of the nodes for the expanded fido-net
with increasing numbers of paying users ?

-- Chris Glur.

Sorry for long post.



Fri, 11 Jun 2004 06:21:59 GMT  
 Request Editing/criticism re. Oberon new-users
Merry Christmas!!

Quote:
> > Mithril was comercial system like ETH S3 with 3 button mouse (idea that
> > you can use
> > mouse for 9 different operation -- not only for click and double-click --
> > is great), 2
> > track windowing system (however in difference with S3 all windows may
> > dragged freely
> > like in Windows, and whole UI was more friendly than original S3 UI),
> > commands in the
> > manner of MODULE.PROCEDURE, all is text and MVC paradigms,  I
> > wrote GUI builder for it
> > like in S3 etc. It was nice and even more productive than S3.
> > Unfortunately it died.

> Mithril must have been a direct *COPY* of S3, because the S3 mousing
> has no connection with oberon, and could be used on any system.
> Also the "2 track windowing .. dragged freely etc."  If I'm wearing the
> same hat, shoes, and shirt as you, then I'm trying to reverse engineer you.
> Which is OK.

It was written from scratch, however it was a copy of S3 in many aspects. The
main difference from S3 was that the core was written in Oberon-2 not Oberon.
It simplifies code process.

Quote:
> So why did Mithril die ?

It was no resources to maintain and promote the system.

Quote:
> Was it able to use cheap hardware like S3 ?

It was flying on 386 processor, :).

Quote:

> Would a free OS have more chance to spread ?

Yes, of course, however nobody was interested to move it to academic background.
I have relationships with autors and maybe you will see Mithril in the near
future as free and open source, :). Thanx for help to remember Mithril.

Quote:

> I don't want to kill an attempt at a russian 'oberon', by competition ?
> Or is it really dead already ?  Did it use Cyrillic (only) script ?

It was no cyrillic support at all.

Quote:

> >  If you offer S3 for using Internet I can say that payng for Internet is
> > much biger
> > problem here than buing computer, and S3 can not help this.

> When I was in Bulgaria and Russia/Udmurtia, I saw that there was
> a functioning telephone system and local calls were free.

Of course, telephones exist with free local calls -- we are not brabarians.
However Internet is not free. It is mostly russian psychological problem.
Everybody can borrow money to buy computer,
however to pay for Internet constantly -- it could be problem, but not in
general.

Quote:

> > > I understand Fido-net is common in Russia ?

> > It was common. I know some Fido-fans today, however all they use it from
> > 80th-90th,
> > and if Fido-net grows in Russia, it is considered only as additional
> > news-groups.

> Fido-net is a transport mechanism. You and other russians need to stop
> trying to ape the americans (using an 8 cylinder one ton automobile
> to move one person) !!  Try to be resourcefull. Work from 1st principles.
> Do you know the concept of 'bulletin board' which existed for many
> years, before normal people had internet connection ?

Finally, I understand your concept. Thanx for automobile example, :) -- I like
it.
Do not europeans ape americans, in this case? I see that now whole world apes
americans, does not it?
Even China and India. 'Bulletin board' is good solution however Internet now is
much more than this. Moreover someone could say that we do not need computers and
other technologies at all -- live in forest, mountains, comunicate with universe
by etemal language. It is much more resourcefull.

Quote:

> That's good Linux and S3 can cooperate, to the benefit of both.
> We both repect open standards.
> The one who can't afford a Linux box can use S3, and his Linux friend
> will cooperate to make Fido-net utilities.

Perhaps It matters.

Quote:

> Marxism is much 'in connection', by having removed independant initiative.
> Thanks for special info about Mithril !

:). You are welcome.

Happy New Year,
Noel



Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:14:50 GMT  
 Request Editing/criticism re. Oberon new-users

Quote:
> > So why did Mithril die ?

> It was no resources to maintain and promote the system.

 Does Linux have this problem ? If not, then why not ?

Quote:
> > Did it use Cyrillic (only) script ?

> It was no cyrillic support at all.

Why, oh why !  Excluding Cyrillic is absurd. You exclude many potential
users/contributors.  I don't think Soviet upbringing allows you to see the
mechanism of a spreading virus or a forest fire; duplicated in social terms ?

I imagine young school children using it.
And other people who have no need to read english.
A killer application for many would be translators from several languages
to Russian.  You know that S3 is very good for text processing. { I hope
native-oberon abandons the new "let's copy Winxx: use cute icon instead
of whole menu-frame to move viewer".}   Journalist and other
non-technical users can benefit.

Due to decades of Stalism, russians are ignorant of many important
subjects, from human {*filter*}ity to health care.  There has been
an explosion of 'self help' publications in the west over the last few
decades.  Ex-soviets don't even know that they don't know; eg. about
proven life-style effects in health and life expectancy.  You are where
the west was in 1950.  Don't ape McDonalds, MicroSoft and Disney;
rather get access to texts of world specialists and translate some to
russian.  Today value lies in applicable knowledge - no gold.

You say that Linux has a growing user base.  Can they use Cyrillic ?
Are there not Linux users who DON'T need to know english ?
Did Mithril use foreign language or method: "Etot dokument opisyvaet.."?

Re. 'data communications needed to 'spread' the system':-

Quote:
> Of course, telephones exist with free local calls -- we are not brabarians.
> However Internet is not free. It is mostly russian psychological problem.
> Everybody can borrow money to buy computer,
> however to pay for Internet constantly -- it could be problem, but not in
> general.

Again, you're missing my point. Try to work from fundamentals, rather
than empirically trying to imitate US.  Forget about hi-speed channels
for graphics and such garbage.  What is needed is an afforable data
transport mechanism.    The local telephone systems already exist.
How are costs for calling neighbouring towns ?
Obviously the Fido-boys have already solved this problem.

Quote:
> 'Bulletin board' is good solution however Internet
> now is much more than this.

 "Much more" is not always "much better": a big percentage of US
population has problems of obesity.

Chris Glur.



Sat, 19 Jun 2004 18:05:39 GMT  
 Request Editing/criticism re. Oberon new-users
Chris, you are talking to us not ape Americans, but advise to use
American 10 years old technical solutions and hardware, and European
10 years old software. Thanks! What I know:
- there are cheap and powerful chips like ARM7 and ARM9, there are
cheap chips for networking and radio connection. Costs for development
handheld are about 20-30 k$ for PCB. Manufacturer prices can be
limited to 50-60 $ per unit. Therefore customer prices are about
100-150-200. A set of such devices can organize the ad-hoc net and can
communicate. You do not need local calls or inet payments. Few months
ago I was involved in such project, and was the leading system
software developer. There are no technical problems at all. Forget,
please, old and crumble 386; but I respect your efforts to support
ex-soviets. Vashy energiy, da v mirnyh celyah! (if you know Russian :)
);
About software-some ARM producers support Java VM codes as build-in or
optional core block. Elsewise you can use jit compilation, simple jit
compiler can be written at two months by experienced person. I forgot
Oberon in details, but can not find reasons why Oberon cannot be
translated to Java VM codes. So you can support both Java and Oberon
on the same target machine(look before about hendheld). This is a way
to simplify and unify human connection, software development..etc.


Sun, 20 Jun 2004 13:56:26 GMT  
 Request Editing/criticism re. Oberon new-users

Quote:

> > > Did it use Cyrillic (only) script ?

> > It was no cyrillic support at all.

> Why, oh why !  Excluding Cyrillic is absurd. You exclude many potential
> users/contributors.  I don't think Soviet upbringing allows you to see the
> mechanism of a spreading virus or a forest fire; duplicated in social terms ?

> I imagine young school children using it.
> And other people who have no need to read english.
> A killer application for many would be translators from several languages
> to Russian.  You know that S3 is very good for text processing. { I hope
> native-oberon abandons the new "let's copy Winxx: use cute icon instead
> of whole menu-frame to move viewer".}   Journalist and other
> non-technical users can benefit.

Ah! Stop fighting. I had no intention to discuss disadventages of the system that
does not exist anymore.  It was very extensible system with minimum features. As
to cyrillic, I added this support to the system  by 5 minutes. The main reason of
absence cyrillic support was the fact that programs in Russia are never bought
but stolen so the product was intended for foreign customers.

Quote:
> Due to decades of Stalism, russians are ignorant of many important
> subjects, from human {*filter*}ity to health care.  There has been
> an explosion of 'self help' publications in the west over the last few
> decades.  Ex-soviets don't even know that they don't know; eg. about
> proven life-style effects in health and life expectancy.  You are where
> the west was in 1950.  Don't ape McDonalds, MicroSoft and Disney;
> rather get access to texts of world specialists and translate some to
> russian.  Today value lies in applicable knowledge - no gold.

Your information about Russia are from 50th. Here all possible McDonalds books
about 'self help', 'human sexulity', 'health care'  are translated and could be
on the market before the West see it due to pirates, :). Begin with yourself to
not ape americans! If you think that you don't because you use 386, I
congratulate you -- you are aping 90-th years americans.

Quote:
> Again, you're missing my point. Try to work from fundamentals, rather
> than empirically trying to imitate US.  Forget about hi-speed channels
> for graphics and such garbage.  What is needed is an afforable data
> transport mechanism.    The local telephone systems already exist.
> How are costs for calling neighbouring towns ?
> Obviously the Fido-boys have already solved this problem.

Again, you are missing my point. Try to work from fundamentals, rather
than empirically trying to imitate US.  Forget about computers at all, go to the
forest, meditate, feel the nature,  it is the only way to not imitate US.

Quote:

> > 'Bulletin board' is good solution however Internet
> > now is much more than this.

>  "Much more" is not always "much better": a big percentage of US
> population has problems of obesity.

There is old russian by-word-joke: it should be much of good man.

I suggest pease! Hands?

cheers,
Noel



Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:43:26 GMT  
 
 [ 11 post ] 

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