Anyone rember an Oberon Based Java killer? 
Author Message
 Anyone rember an Oberon Based Java killer?

I seem to remeber a project based on Oberon or Modula many years ago that
was supposed to compete with Java for Web applets. It exproted partily
compled source file to a plug in that did the code generation. Anyone
remeber this or know if there is a link to it?


Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:47:44 GMT  
 Anyone rember an Oberon Based Java killer?


Quote:
> I seem to remeber a project based on Oberon or Modula many years ago that
> was supposed to compete with Java for Web applets. It exproted partily
> compled source file to a plug in that did the code generation. Anyone
> remeber this or know if there is a link to it?

I think you mean "Juice". I have these links, but I don't know if they are
still ok.
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~kistler

I have some doc I picked up earlier. If you are interested...


Thu, 23 Oct 2003 00:48:10 GMT  
 Anyone rember an Oberon Based Java killer?

Quote:

> I seem to remeber a project based on Oberon or Modula many years ago that
> was supposed to compete with Java for Web applets. It exproted partily
> compled source file to a plug in that did the code generation. Anyone
> remeber this or know if there is a link to it?

Grard Meunier is right.

There have been some contributions to that topic in clo - please
check the NG archive.



Thu, 23 Oct 2003 01:02:15 GMT  
 Anyone rember an Oberon Based Java killer?
I was called Juice. There is some info here:
http://sunsite.dk/javarc/dev/misc/Juice/  but the main site
(http://caesar.ics.uci.edu/juice/ or http://www.ics.uci.edu/~juice) seems to
be down.

David B


Quote:
> I seem to remeber a project based on Oberon or Modula many years ago that
> was supposed to compete with Java for Web applets. It exproted partily
> compled source file to a plug in that did the code generation. Anyone
> remeber this or know if there is a link to it?



Sat, 25 Oct 2003 00:43:08 GMT  
 Anyone rember an Oberon Based Java killer?
You are remembering Slim Binaries developed by Michael Franz at UCI.
It IS incorporated into both MacOberon and Native Oberon, available at
ETH Switzerland.
At UCI's website they have a downloadable demo called "Juice".  It
functions as a
plug-in to your browser.

The oberon compiler emits compressed adaptive syntax trees rather than
object code. Thus the term slim binaries.

Michael Franz web page is located at http://www.ics.uci.edu/~franz/.

Perhaps you previously read his paper:

T. Kistler and M. Franz; "A Tree-Based Alternative to Java Byte-Codes"
(expanded version of conference paper C.05); International Journal of
Parallel Programming; 27:1, pp. 21-34; February 1999.
You may also wish to puruse
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~franz/SlimBinaries.html.

Lancelot

Quote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


regarding Re: Anyone rember an Oberon Based Java killer?:

Quote:
> I was called Juice. There is some info here:
> http://sunsite.dk/javarc/dev/misc/Juice/  but the main site
> (http://caesar.ics.uci.edu/juice/ or http://www.ics.uci.edu/~juice) seems
to
> be down.
> David B


> > I seem to remeber a project based on Oberon or Modula many years ago that
> > was supposed to compete with Java for Web applets. It exproted partily
> > compled source file to a plug in that did the code generation. Anyone
> > remeber this or know if there is a link to it?



Sat, 25 Oct 2003 05:08:24 GMT  
 Anyone rember an Oberon Based Java killer?

Quote:

>You are remembering Slim Binaries developed by Michael Franz at UCI.
>It IS incorporated into both MacOberon and Native Oberon, available at
>ETH Switzerland.

I don't recall where, but I seem to remember reading that slim binary
support has been removed from NativeOberon.  Is this true?

BTW, is there any way I can get ahold of the SlimBinary technical
documentation at all?  The last time I looked for anything of substance, I
kept getting nowhere.

Quote:
>T. Kistler and M. Franz; "A Tree-Based Alternative to Java Byte-Codes"
>(expanded version of conference paper C.05); International Journal of
>Parallel Programming; 27:1, pp. 21-34; February 1999.

--
KC5TJA/6, DM13, QRP-L #1447 | Official Channel Saint, *Team Amiga*
Samuel A. Falvo II          |
Oceanside, CA               |


Sat, 25 Oct 2003 06:58:06 GMT  
 Anyone rember an Oberon Based Java killer?

Quote:

> You are remembering Slim Binaries developed by Michael Franz at UCI.
> It IS incorporated into both MacOberon and Native Oberon, available at
> ETH Switzerland.

Native Oberon does not support Slim Binaries, neither does the Plug-in version
of ETH Oberon.

-- Pieter

--
Pieter Muller, Institute for Computer Systems, ETH Zurich
Native Oberon OS: http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/native/



Sat, 25 Oct 2003 18:05:52 GMT  
 Anyone rember an Oberon Based Java killer?
So what's happening with Slim Binaries and Juice?

David

Quote:


> > You are remembering Slim Binaries developed by Michael Franz at UCI.
> > It IS incorporated into both MacOberon and Native Oberon, available at
> > ETH Switzerland.

> Native Oberon does not support Slim Binaries, neither does the Plug-in
version
> of ETH Oberon.

> -- Pieter

> --
> Pieter Muller, Institute for Computer Systems, ETH Zurich
> Native Oberon OS: http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/native/



Sun, 26 Oct 2003 14:22:44 GMT  
 Anyone rember an Oberon Based Java killer?

Quote:


> >You are remembering Slim Binaries developed by Michael Franz at UCI.
> >It IS incorporated into both MacOberon and Native Oberon, available at
> >ETH Switzerland.

> I don't recall where, but I seem to remember reading that slim binary
> support has been removed from NativeOberon.  Is this true?

> BTW, is there any way I can get ahold of the SlimBinary technical
> documentation at all?  The last time I looked for anything of substance, I
> kept getting nowhere.

> >T. Kistler and M. Franz; "A Tree-Based Alternative to Java Byte-Codes"
> >(expanded version of conference paper C.05); International Journal of
> >Parallel Programming; 27:1, pp. 21-34; February 1999.

> --
> KC5TJA/6, DM13, QRP-L #1447 | Official Channel Saint, *Team Amiga*
> Samuel A. Falvo II          |
> Oceanside, CA               |

AFAIK the Uni Linz has an Oberon V4 which heavily uses slim
binaries or something like this.


Sun, 26 Oct 2003 18:32:56 GMT  
 Anyone rember an Oberon Based Java killer?

Quote:
>AFAIK the Uni Linz has an Oberon V4 which heavily uses slim
>binaries or something like this.

I'm pretty certain (read 95% sure) that Linz Oberon V4 doesn't use
slim binaries.  At least not the Windows version.  The ETH verion
of Oberon Sys3 prior to "plugin" Oberon used it as well as the
MacIntosh version.  Also there was a version of Slim Binaries that
was developed under Oberon/F (now BlackBox) called Gazelle.  It
was meant to be a commercial Juice development platform.  
Unfortunately it's no longer available.

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Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:04:42 GMT  
 Anyone rember an Oberon Based Java killer?

Quote:

>AFAIK the Uni Linz has an Oberon V4 which heavily uses slim
>binaries or something like this.

Well, that's nice.  But I'm looking for a piece of paper (or, preferably, a
webpage or PDF document) that documents the binary layout of the
SlimBinaries.  Looking at source code gets me nowhere. I'm not one of those
people who can look at a source file and deduce the entire architecture from
that.  I need a systems-level specification (more or less), and work my way
to finer-grained inspection before I can truely understand what's going on.

--
KC5TJA/6, DM13, QRP-L #1447 | Official Channel Saint, *Team Amiga*
Samuel A. Falvo II          |
Oceanside, CA               |



Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:07:54 GMT  
 Anyone rember an Oberon Based Java killer?



Quote:
>So what's happening with Slim Binaries and Juice?

>David

I think Juice is pretty much dead at this point.  It was meant mainly as
a proof of concept of the power of Slim Binaries.  When it first came out
it KICKED {*filter*}speed wise with comparison to Java.  That's because it
was first in the just in time compilation department.  But when Java JITs
came out that advantage diminished somewhat.  However Java's biggest hold
up in speed these days seems to be in download speed and here the smaller
size of slim binary files helps also.  The disadvantages were more
managerial than technical.  Juice had its own diplay implementation.  It
allowed for 24 bit color (unlike the 8 bit color of System 3 at the time
Juice was released), but it wasn't as powerful.  Also the Juice plugin
was only ported to 3 processors (x86, 68K, PPC) and two operating systems
(Windows and Mac).  A lack of a Linux implementation was a drawback.
The lack of a UI might have been overcome if Juice had been positioned
as a Flash competitor instead of a Java competitor.

As someone pointed out neither Plugin Oberon nor Native Oberon use slim
binaries.  I think Plugin Oberon is now using the same compiler as Native
Oberon (the Active Oberon compiler without concurrency) so that might be
part of the explanation for this.  Also the slim binary concept seems to
be harder to port to different processors than other options.

Michael Franz, one of the creators of slim binaries, is still extending
his work and adding cool features like dynamic re-optimization.  However
I'm not sure if he has any plans on putting this into Oberon.  You can
read work from his group at:   http://www.*-*-*.com/ ~franz/

I still have the source code for Juice.  If anyone wanted to revive Juice
they would need to update the plugin.  Perhaps the source from Plugin Oberon
could help in this.  Plugin Oberon itself might grow into a Java alternative.
The biggest issue (for me) would be security.  While Juice might not have
been powerful enough, Plugin Oberon is probably a little TOO powerful.  Of
course people do download "signed" Active-X components.  I've been thinking
about a potential security model.  Juice modules were not allowed to import
module SYSTEM.  Say if this idea was extended so that the end user could
specify which modules could and could not be loaded by any program running
under the Netscape plugin?  For example, certain games, demos, ect. might
only need to import the Gfx and Input modules.  For file handling a new
"secure" file module would need to be added that could keep track of
permissions a particular application would have.  By default everything
could be "sandboxed" to one directory, but a user could override this
if necessary.  My idea is sort of a "lightweight" capabilities based system.

Also it would be could if Plugin Oberon could use some kind of portable binary.  If not slim binaries, then perhaps compressed tokens.  Though I
would prefer using the SafeTSA format developed at UCI because it has the
potential of being as fast as optimized C.

http://www.*-*-*.com/ ~franz/pubs-pdf/BC02.pdf
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Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:56:25 GMT  
 
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