Project Oberon 
Author Message
 Project Oberon

Hi,

I've sent the message at the end of this mail to the following
newsgroups:

comp.lang.modula2
comp.lang.modula3
comp.compilers
comp.os.misc
comp.os.research
maus.computer.sprache.oberon
z-netz.sprachen.oberon

    </Erik>

------------------------
Any people interested in a reprint of the book:

'Project Oberon : The Design of an Operating System and Compiler'

By Niklaus Wirth.

At comp.lang.oberon we are maintaining a list of interested people to

you are interested in a reprinted copy, and I will add you to the list.
(Or join the discussion at comp.lang.oberon).

Regards,

    Erik.



Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:59:38 GMT  
 Project Oberon
Any more ideas for reaching people who might be interested?

Putting a paper at the university or faculty hall perhaps?

    </Erik>

Quote:

> Hi,

> I've sent the message at the end of this mail to the following
> newsgroups:

> comp.lang.modula2
> comp.lang.modula3
> comp.compilers
> comp.os.misc
> comp.os.research
> maus.computer.sprache.oberon
> z-netz.sprachen.oberon

>     </Erik>

> ------------------------
> Any people interested in a reprint of the book:

> 'Project Oberon : The Design of an Operating System and Compiler'

> By Niklaus Wirth.

> At comp.lang.oberon we are maintaining a list of interested people to

> you are interested in a reprinted copy, and I will add you to the list.
> (Or join the discussion at comp.lang.oberon).

> Regards,

>     Erik.



Wed, 05 Nov 2003 16:05:36 GMT  
 Project Oberon

Quote:

> Hi,

> I've sent the message at the end of this mail to the following
> newsgroups:

> comp.lang.modula2
> comp.lang.modula3
> comp.compilers
> comp.os.misc
> comp.os.research
> maus.computer.sprache.oberon
> z-netz.sprachen.oberon

>     </Erik>

> ------------------------
> Any people interested in a reprint of the book:

> 'Project Oberon : The Design of an Operating System and Compiler'

> By Niklaus Wirth.

> At comp.lang.oberon we are maintaining a list of interested people to

> you are interested in a reprinted copy, and I will add you to the list.
> (Or join the discussion at comp.lang.oberon).

> Regards,

>     Erik.

Great, thanks!


Thu, 06 Nov 2003 00:05:03 GMT  
 Project Oberon

Quote:

> Any more ideas for reaching people who might be interested?


P.S.
Add me to the list too.

Anes Sadikovic



Fri, 07 Nov 2003 06:38:34 GMT  
 Project Oberon
I would then suggest that you write the book using TeX or{*filter*}for a
better look. As it looks now, the layout isn't that very nice.
However the book is superb and more concise than any of the other books I
own dealing with compiler construction.

__________________________________
\     B. Rasmus Anthin            \           _         ______ |
 \    ================             \        /   \___-=O`/|O`/__|
  \                                 \_______\          / | /    )

 / www.etek.chalmers.se/~e8rasmus  /         *              \| |
/ 64438710                        /                        (o)
----------------------------------



Sun, 09 Nov 2003 16:56:15 GMT  
 Project Oberon

Quote:

> I would then suggest that you write the book using TeX or{*filter*}for a
> better look. As it looks now, the layout isn't that very nice.
> However the book is superb and more concise than any of the other books I
> own dealing with compiler construction.

> __________________________________
> \     B. Rasmus Anthin            \           _         ______ |
>  \    ================             \        /   \___-=O`/|O`/__|
>   \                                 \_______\          / | /    )

>  / www.etek.chalmers.se/~e8rasmus  /         *              \| |
> / 64438710                        /                        (o)
> ----------------------------------

I'm not sure to which message you're referring because you
didn't include any.
But I wonder why you don't like the layout - I personally was
and am very
e{*filter*}d of the typesetting. It is from my point of view the best
typesetted
computer book which includes a major part of sources.


Mon, 10 Nov 2003 05:19:18 GMT  
 Project Oberon
Well, I referred to the first message.
However, I think that the code should be presented in fixed width (in
a courier-like style) to begin with. I also wonder which ASCII character
the up-arrow represents used in some code listings. I think that the
page-headers on the left side should have names corresponding to the
current chapter and that the headers on the right side should correspond
to the current section. But it does not really end there. The point is
that I think it would be a lot easier and would look somewhat better using
{*filter*}as a typesetter for the book. Most professionally produced papers
and reports and books within universities are typed using TeX or LaTeX,
what I have noticed so far. I do not complain about the contents of the
book. The book itself is very pedagogic and stimulates you to produce your
own compiler or interpreter.

However I would like to see some more
examples and stuff within the area of compiler construction such as
simplifying expressions (optimization) and little more in depth regarding
translating different sorts of trees into intermediate code and stuff like
that.

If you want a lot of code, then you might look at the book "Writing
Compilers and Interpreters" by Ronald Mak (that is, if you know some C++).

Sincerely,

//Raz

Quote:

> I'm not sure to which message you're referring because you
> didn't include any.
> But I wonder why you don't like the layout - I personally was
> and am very
> e{*filter*}d of the typesetting. It is from my point of view the best
> typesetted
> computer book which includes a major part of sources.

__________________________________
\     B. Rasmus Anthin            \           _         ______ |
 \    ================             \        /   \___-=O`/|O`/__|
  \                                 \_______\          / | /    )

 / www.etek.chalmers.se/~e8rasmus  /         *              \| |
/ 64438710                        /                        (o)
----------------------------------


Wed, 12 Nov 2003 00:53:36 GMT  
 Project Oberon

Quote:

> Well, I referred to the first message.
> However, I think that the code should be presented in fixed width (in
> a courier-like style) to begin with. I also wonder which ASCII character
> the up-arrow represents used in some code listings. I think that the
> page-headers on the left side should have names corresponding to the
> current chapter and that the headers on the right side should correspond
> to the current section. But it does not really end there. The point is
> that I think it would be a lot easier and would look somewhat better using
>{*filter*}as a typesetter for the book. Most professionally produced papers
> and reports and books within universities are typed using TeX or LaTeX,
> what I have noticed so far. I do not complain about the contents of the
> book. The book itself is very pedagogic and stimulates you to produce your
> own compiler or interpreter.

PO is written with the Oberon Text system whose sources are
included with the system. AFAIR this also mentioned in the book.
The special way the caret character "^" is printed is the normal
shape of this character in the font Syntax(?). The suggestions
about the page headers might help in ease of finding, I
personally didn't miss them.

Printing program text in fixed space font is the worst thing we
can do. I just read an enlighting article in Software Concepts &
Tools about the years of training we needed to be able to only
read fixed space text. The problem is that most dev systems
don't allow attributing the program texts. If you read
D.E.Knuth's contributions about litteral programming you will
probably agree that proportional spacing and style attributes
*are* the way to go.

Quote:
> However I would like to see some more
> examples and stuff within the area of compiler construction such as
> simplifying expressions (optimization) and little more in depth regarding
> translating different sorts of trees into intermediate code and stuff like
> that.

> If you want a lot of code, then you might look at the book "Writing
> Compilers and Interpreters" by Ronald Mak (that is, if you know some C++).

> Sincerely,

> //Raz

[SNIP]


Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:01:40 GMT  
 Project Oberon

Quote:
> don't allow attributing the program texts. If you read
> D.E.Knuth's contributions about litteral programming you will
> probably agree that proportional spacing and style attributes
> *are* the way to go.

I think that was "literate" not "literal" (unless you're talking about
soemthing else).

I've been trying (and failing) to get my various employers to consider this
concept since I first read about it.  Either I've been "enchanted" with the
idea or they just don't "get it."  Either way, I've never gotten anyone to
agree it's a good idea.

    - Bill



Thu, 13 Nov 2003 02:14:09 GMT  
 Project Oberon

Quote:



> > don't allow attributing the program texts. If you read
> > D.E.Knuth's contributions about litteral programming you will
> > probably agree that proportional spacing and style attributes
> > *are* the way to go.

> I think that was "literate" not "literal" (unless you're talking about
> soemthing else).

> I've been trying (and failing) to get my various employers to consider this
> concept since I first read about it.  Either I've been "enchanted" with the
> idea or they just don't "get it."  Either way, I've never gotten anyone to
> agree it's a good idea.

>     - Bill

At least Niklaus Wirth and Jrg Gutknecht the authors of PO seem
to follow this idea. Maybe I haven't got the idea of litterate
programming: to write the source in a way that it could be read
and understood like prose. I always thought this is good
programming style no matter what PL.


Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:53:21 GMT  
 Project Oberon

Quote:
> At least Niklaus Wirth and Jrg Gutknecht the authors of PO seem
> to follow this idea. Maybe I haven't got the idea of litterate
> programming: to write the source in a way that it could be read
> and understood like prose. I always thought this is good
> programming style no matter what PL.

I think you're right.  But remember that those-who-pay-me don't agree with
me either.  Still, I try to write code that can be understood and doesn't
cause they eyes to cross when trying to read it.  I seem to get fairly
constant criticizm of my "wasted time" in doing so... until someone else has
to work on it.  They seem to stop complaining shorty after that.  A good
feeling, to be sure, but always a bit disappointing that the value couldn't
be observed on it's own.

Does anyone have a URL for what you consider some good literate programming
material?  I'll try Yahoo, of course, but that doesn't have opinions of
readers, just the references.

    - Bill



Thu, 13 Nov 2003 22:18:58 GMT  
 Project Oberon

Quote:

> Does anyone have a URL for what you consider some good literate programming
> material?  I'll try Yahoo, of course, but that doesn't have opinions of
> readers, just the references.

You can find links to literate programming from Knuth's homepage:

http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/

I'm a big fan of TeX, and a big fan of code that has documentation,
but I'm not a big fan of using the 'web' literate programming
techniques; the code that you must maintain for these is quite ugly.

I'd much prefer a system where the editor and compiler cooperate to
ignore certain things in the source - gee, like Oberon's op2 compiler
& the Write editor.

If anyone has been around long enough to remember 'Framework' (from
Ashton-Tate) -- the idea of using Write and special Elems (that are
ignored by the compiler) to control the documentation of the source
would be much better than having your source embedded (basically) in a
TeX document.

Taylor "Oberon Paladin" Hutt
No longer at Borland.... (thankfully)



Fri, 14 Nov 2003 00:18:25 GMT  
 Project Oberon

Quote:



> > At least Niklaus Wirth and Jrg Gutknecht the authors of PO seem
> > to follow this idea. Maybe I haven't got the idea of litterate
> > programming: to write the source in a way that it could be read
> > and understood like prose. I always thought this is good
> > programming style no matter what PL.

> I think you're right.  But remember that those-who-pay-me don't agree with
> me either.  Still, I try to write code that can be understood and doesn't
> cause they eyes to cross when trying to read it.  I seem to get fairly
> constant criticizm of my "wasted time" in doing so... until someone else has
> to work on it.  They seem to stop complaining shorty after that.  A good
> feeling, to be sure, but always a bit disappointing that the value couldn't
> be observed on it's own.

> Does anyone have a URL for what you consider some good literate programming
> material?  I'll try Yahoo, of course, but that doesn't have opinions of
> readers, just the references.

>     - Bill

This is basically a question of style and culture. I once worked
for a company which implemented a storage control system for
another company. When we rolled out the first production system
we went to the customers site and had to work together with IT
people there. We had to write some scripts, change the
configuration a.s.o. and my colleague and I worked sometimes at
different places independently. At one occasion a person of the
customer's IT stuff looked over my shoulder and saw me writing a
lengthy comment in a script. He was very surprised but later on
told other colleagues about the good practices we had in
commenting our work.

There are some bad practices like comment free programming which
can on a short term assure your seat. But if e.g. a due
dilligence is undertaken and independent supervisors look at the
sources you'll be the winner. With the high fluctuation rates no
company which wants to stay in business can afford programmers
who mess up the sources.



Fri, 14 Nov 2003 00:39:47 GMT  
 Project Oberon

Quote:


> > Does anyone have a URL for what you consider some good literate programming
> > material?  I'll try Yahoo, of course, but that doesn't have opinions of
> > readers, just the references.

> You can find links to literate programming from Knuth's homepage:

> http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/

> I'm a big fan of TeX, and a big fan of code that has documentation,
> but I'm not a big fan of using the 'web' literate programming
> techniques; the code that you must maintain for these is quite ugly.

> I'd much prefer a system where the editor and compiler cooperate to
> ignore certain things in the source - gee, like Oberon's op2 compiler
> & the Write editor.

> If anyone has been around long enough to remember 'Framework' (from
> Ashton-Tate) -- the idea of using Write and special Elems (that are
> ignored by the compiler) to control the documentation of the source
> would be much better than having your source embedded (basically) in a
> TeX document.

> Taylor "Oberon Paladin" Hutt
> No longer at Borland.... (thankfully)

I'm long enough around to remember Ashton-Tate but unfortunately
I didn't work with 'Framework'. But I really like the ObSys
technique to enrich the sources by attributes which aren't seen
by the compiler. These attributes are not only TextElems these
could be quite normal attributes like different font sizes,
bold, italics and colour.

What I like to be extended is the independency of the
attributes. At present we can't have bold and italics together.
I would although like to have underscoring as a text attribute
instead of the "fancy" solution as a TextElem. Apart from that
the ways to include documentation into the source are quite
satisfying. It is e.g. possible to include a drawing like a
schema graph in the source text.



Fri, 14 Nov 2003 00:45:56 GMT  
 Project Oberon

Quote:
> I'd much prefer a system where the editor and compiler cooperate to
> ignore certain things in the source - gee, like Oberon's op2 compiler
> & the Write editor.

This is exactly what I'd like to see.  The early, at least, literate
programming editor/compiler driver I saw worked this way.  I only got to
read about it, but it seemed like a great way to fly.

    - Bill



Fri, 14 Nov 2003 04:24:16 GMT  
 
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