Concurrent Oberon, where to get ? 
Author Message
 Concurrent Oberon, where to get ?

Hi!

 Is there a compiler available for $SUBJECT ?
 I was given the homework of translating something about Oberon into
hungarian, and didn't realise that I'd have to try it out :)

 Article: S. Lalis and B. Sanders - Adding Concurrency to the Oberon
          System - PLSA'94, p. 328-344

bye, krajo



Sun, 19 Oct 2003 17:24:06 GMT  
 Concurrent Oberon, where to get ?

Quote:

> Hi!

>  Is there a compiler available for $SUBJECT ?
>  I was given the homework of translating something about Oberon into
> hungarian, and didn't realise that I'd have to try it out :)

>  Article: S. Lalis and B. Sanders - Adding Concurrency to the Oberon
>           System - PLSA'94, p. 328-344

> bye, krajo

The problem with the work of S.Lalis was and is that *from my
point of view* he didn't understand the requirements of network
communications very well. He gave another talk at the recent
JMLC in Zrich revealing the same lack of understanding. *From
my point of view* his work is of no relevance to the praxis - it
is simply not usable. *From my point of view* don't waste your
time with his work.


Mon, 20 Oct 2003 07:16:11 GMT  
 Concurrent Oberon, where to get ?
The paper on networking is a different paper.  Personally I liked that one
also, but that's beside the point.

I really liked the work done with Concurrent Oberon.  I think its a shame that
it never got incorporated into any of the main Oberon distributions.  It added
threading to Oberon without causing any languages changes or even any major changes to the system.  The only implementation of it that I've ever heard of was for the Ceres workstation.



Quote:

>> Hi!

>>  Is there a compiler available for $SUBJECT ?
>>  I was given the homework of translating something about Oberon into
>> hungarian, and didn't realise that I'd have to try it out :)

>>  Article: S. Lalis and B. Sanders - Adding Concurrency to the Oberon
>>           System - PLSA'94, p. 328-344

>> bye, krajo

>The problem with the work of S.Lalis was and is that *from my
>point of view* he didn't understand the requirements of network
>communications very well. He gave another talk at the recent
>JMLC in Zrich revealing the same lack of understanding. *From
>my point of view* his work is of no relevance to the praxis - it
>is simply not usable. *From my point of view* don't waste your
>time with his work.

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Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:24:55 GMT  
 Concurrent Oberon, where to get ?

Quote:

> The paper on networking is a different paper.  Personally I liked that one
> also, but that's beside the point.

> I really liked the work done with Concurrent Oberon.  I think its a shame that
> it never got incorporated into any of the main Oberon distributions.  It added
> threading to Oberon without causing any languages changes or even any major changes to the system.  The only implementation of it that I've ever heard of was for the Ceres workstation.




> >> Hi!

> >>  Is there a compiler available for $SUBJECT ?
> >>  I was given the homework of translating something about Oberon into
> >> hungarian, and didn't realise that I'd have to try it out :)

> >>  Article: S. Lalis and B. Sanders - Adding Concurrency to the Oberon
> >>           System - PLSA'94, p. 328-344

> >> bye, krajo

> >The problem with the work of S.Lalis was and is that *from my
> >point of view* he didn't understand the requirements of network
> >communications very well. He gave another talk at the recent
> >JMLC in Zrich revealing the same lack of understanding. *From
> >my point of view* his work is of no relevance to the praxis - it
> >is simply not usable. *From my point of view* don't waste your
> >time with his work.

> _______________________________________________
> Submitted via WebNewsReader of http://www.interbulletin.com

There are/were several different versions of concurrency
implementation. May I remind you to the paper of Jrg Gutknecht
with the IMHO strange English title: "Do the fish really need
remote control?"?
I don't understand the problem of concurrency implementation if
it done without language change: why do you "wait" then for
incorporation into any of the main Oberon distributions. What's
the problem in doing that yourself?
I *personally* would completely refrain from any work of Spiros
Lalis. *From my point of view* and *only with my own experience*
how this guy thinks (if we dare to call his kind of brain (?)
activity as thinking) there is really no point in paying
attention to what he has done or what he is doing. Simply: this
guy has *no clue* - as I said - *from my point of view*.


Tue, 21 Oct 2003 05:55:44 GMT  
 Concurrent Oberon, where to get ?
For heaven's sake, please, stop insulting people.


[snip]

Quote:
> I *personally* would completely refrain from any work of Spiros
> Lalis. *From my point of view* and *only with my own experience*
> how this guy thinks (if we dare to call his kind of brain (?)
> activity as thinking) there is really no point in paying
> attention to what he has done or what he is doing. Simply: this
> guy has *no clue* - as I said - *from my point of view*.



Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:59:21 GMT  
 Concurrent Oberon, where to get ?


Quote:

>There are/were several different versions of concurrency
>implementation. May I remind you to the paper of Jrg Gutknecht
>with the IMHO strange English title: "Do the fish really need
>remote control?"?

Yes, I'm very aware of that paper.  I'm not sure of your point
here.  I didn't say that Spiros paper was the ONLY one on concurrency,
only that this paper was about concurrency so your tangent about
whether or not he understands networking is irrelavent.

Quote:
>I don't understand the problem of concurrency implementation if
>it done without language change: why do you "wait" then for
>incorporation into any of the main Oberon distributions. What's
>the problem in doing that yourself?

You do realize, don't you, that the paper you referenced (Do the fish
really need remote control) is an implementation that requires a
language change?  (Active Oberon).  Again, what is your point?
Do you have a point?

As for "waiting" for concurrency instead of adding it myself, where's
YOUR implementation?  I don't have time to do everything, so I do
the things that interest me the most.  (Like the CORBA-IDL to Oberon
converter).

Quote:
>I *personally* would completely refrain from any work of Spiros
>Lalis. *From my point of view* and *only with my own experience*
>how this guy thinks (if we dare to call his kind of brain (?)
>activity as thinking) there is really no point in paying
>attention to what he has done or what he is doing. Simply: this
>guy has *no clue* - as I said - *from my point of view*.

Whatever.
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Tue, 21 Oct 2003 21:33:29 GMT  
 Concurrent Oberon, where to get ?


Quote:
>Hi!

> Is there a compiler available for $SUBJECT ?
> I was given the homework of translating something about Oberon into
>hungarian, and didn't realise that I'd have to try it out :)

> Article: S. Lalis and B. Sanders - Adding Concurrency to the Oberon
>          System - PLSA'94, p. 328-344

>bye, krajo

That work was only implemented for the Ceres workstation.  But there is
a work by M. Hof that is implemented for the MacIntosh.  There was supposed
to be a Windows version some time ago, but as far as I can tell it was
never released.  Here is the link.

http://www.ssw.uni-linz.ac.at/Research/Projects/Network/

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Tue, 21 Oct 2003 21:40:59 GMT  
 Concurrent Oberon, where to get ?

Quote:

> That work was only implemented for the Ceres workstation.  But there is
> a work by M. Hof that is implemented for the MacIntosh.  There was supposed
> to be a Windows version some time ago, but as far as I can tell it was
> never released.  Here is the link.

Thanks to all for the info.
Guess I'll have to find a new subject for my programm example :)

bye, krajo



Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:52:54 GMT  
 Concurrent Oberon, where to get ?

Quote:

> For heaven's sake, please, stop insulting people.



> [snip]
> > I *personally* would completely refrain from any work of Spiros
> > Lalis. *From my point of view* and *only with my own experience*
> > how this guy thinks (if we dare to call his kind of brain (?)
> > activity as thinking) there is really no point in paying
> > attention to what he has done or what he is doing. Simply: this
> > guy has *no clue* - as I said - *from my point of view*.

Sorry for obviously bothering you but I tried to make clear that
this is *only my point of view*. I hope that declaring it that
way it would be understood as a single opinion having not more
weight than the opposite. If I were wrong it would at the same
time shade a bad light on my own.

My experience with Spiros Lalis contributions was that bad that
I don't want other people to waste their time. Moreover I think
his low quality work (as I said: *from my point of view*)
doesn't fit to the other outstanding contributions from ETH
people.

Thanks for understanding.



Thu, 23 Oct 2003 00:32:21 GMT  
 Concurrent Oberon, where to get ?

Quote:




> >There are/were several different versions of concurrency
> >implementation. May I remind you to the paper of Jrg Gutknecht
> >with the IMHO strange English title: "Do the fish really need
> >remote control?"?

> Yes, I'm very aware of that paper.  I'm not sure of your point
> here.  I didn't say that Spiros paper was the ONLY one on concurrency,
> only that this paper was about concurrency so your tangent about
> whether or not he understands networking is irrelavent.

Two points:

1.I thought it would have been a good idea to mention some good
work on that topic instead of only mention Spiros Lalis' work
which is *from my point of view* without any real value. History
seems to reveal that nobody adopts his work which I like to
interprete as a measure of low quality. But again as I said:
this is *only from my point of view*. Please my reply to Dirk
Muysers.

2.If someone repeats to contribute irrelevant work to a well
understood area like networking obviously without understanding
good work from other people (as I said: this is *only from my
point of view*) I don't trust the quality of work in other
related areas. Distributed processing *is* related to
networking. I you wasted you time in studying Spiros Lalis'
stupid (as I said: *only from my point of view*) work in the
networking area you would have noticed that it's about
distributed computing.

Quote:
> >I don't understand the problem of concurrency implementation if
> >it is done without language change: why do you "wait" then for
> >incorporation into any of the main Oberon distributions. What's
> >the problem in doing that yourself?

> You do realize, don't you, that the paper you referenced (Do the fish
> really need remote control) is an implementation that requires a
> language change?  (Active Oberon).  Again, what is your point?
> Do you have a point?

Because you explicitly referred to this non-relevant paper which
proposed a solution which doesn't need any language change to
accomplish the task I recommmend you to stop complaining about
something you could have done easily by yourself.
The strange thing is that you only mentioned this paper but
could have mentioned others where your complaining would have
been more appropriate.

Did you get this?

Quote:
> As for "waiting" for concurrency instead of adding it myself, where's
> YOUR implementation?  I don't have time to do everything, so I do
> the things that interest me the most.  (Like the CORBA-IDL to Oberon
> converter).

Did I complain? I'm rather impressed about what ETH people
(besides Spiros Lalis) did and what they and others really do.
If you ever ported the Oberon Compiler and System to a different
architecture you would know how highly admirable their work is.

Forget Spiros Lalis (maybe you would have more time left to do
the really interesting things if you hadn't wasted you time
reading irrelevant papers).

Quote:
> >I *personally* would completely refrain from any work of Spiros
> >Lalis. *From my point of view* and *only with my own experience*
> >how this guy thinks (if we dare to call his kind of brain (?)
> >activity as thinking) there is really no point in paying
> >attention to what he has done or what he is doing. Simply: this
> >guy has *no clue* - as I said - *from my point of view*.

> Whatever.
> _______________________________________________
> Submitted via WebNewsReader of http://www.interbulletin.com



Thu, 23 Oct 2003 00:47:53 GMT  
 Concurrent Oberon, where to get ?

[SNIP]

Quote:
> That work was only implemented for the Ceres workstation.  But there is
> a work by M. Hof that is implemented for the MacIntosh.  There was supposed
> to be a Windows version some time ago, but as far as I can tell it was
> never released.  Here is the link.

> http://www.ssw.uni-linz.ac.at/Research/Projects/Network/

> _______________________________________________
> Submitted via WebNewsReader of http://www.interbulletin.com

Well done!

  smime.p7s
1K Download


Thu, 23 Oct 2003 00:50:30 GMT  
 Concurrent Oberon, where to get ?


Quote:
>2.If someone repeats to contribute irrelevant work to a well
>understood area like networking obviously without understanding
>good work from other people (as I said: this is *only from my
>point of view*) I don't trust the quality of work in other
>related areas. Distributed processing *is* related to
>networking. I you wasted you time in studying Spiros Lalis'
>stupid (as I said: *only from my point of view*) work in the
>networking area you would have noticed that it's about
>distributed computing.

Again, the paper that was being referenced was not about networking
so even IF you didn't like his approach to networking I don't what
that has to do with the subject in question.  That's like saying
"Michael Jordan must not be any good at basketball because he sucked
at golf and baseball".  

Quote:

>> >I don't understand the problem of concurrency implementation if
>> >it is done without language change: why do you "wait" then for
>> >incorporation into any of the main Oberon distributions. What's
>> >the problem in doing that yourself?

>> You do realize, don't you, that the paper you referenced (Do the fish
>> really need remote control) is an implementation that requires a
>> language change?  (Active Oberon).  Again, what is your point?
>> Do you have a point?

>Because you explicitly referred to this non-relevant paper which
>proposed a solution which doesn't need any language change to
>accomplish the task I recommmend you to stop complaining about
>something you could have done easily by yourself.

Who said I was complaining?  And if it's so easy to do (whatever it
is you are talking about) why haven't you done it?

Quote:
>The strange thing is that you only mentioned this paper but
>could have mentioned others where your complaining would have
>been more appropriate.

Again, where was I complaining?

Quote:
>Did you get this?

Did I get what?  You're point?  Nope.  And I still don't get it.

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Sat, 25 Oct 2003 01:58:38 GMT  
 Concurrent Oberon, where to get ?

Quote:



[SNIP]

Quote:
> Again, the paper that was being referenced was not about networking
> so even IF you didn't like his approach to networking I don't know what
> that has to do with the subject in question.  That's like saying
> "Michael Jordan must not be any good at basketball because he sucked
> at golf and baseball".

Basically his work is about concurrency. If it is in an network
or a
local environment doesn't matter.
Did you like his proposal about local concurrency? Did you study
it well?

Quote:
> >Because you explicitly referred to this non-relevant paper which
> >proposed a solution which doesn't need any language change to
> >accomplish the task I recommmend you to stop complaining about
> >something you could have done easily by yourself.

> Who said I was complaining?  And if it's so easy to do (whatever it
> is you are talking about) why haven't you done it?

You regreted that his work wasn't incorporated into any Oberon
distribution.
I didn't complain. I even didn't write that I would like to have
this feature.

Quote:
> >The strange thing is that you only mentioned this paper but
> >could have mentioned others where your complaining would have
> >been more appropriate.

> Again, where was I complaining?

See above.
Quote:
> >Did you get this?

> Did I get what?  You're point?  Nope.  And I still don't get it.

> _______________________________________________
> Submitted via WebNewsReader of http://www.interbulletin.com



Sun, 26 Oct 2003 18:29:07 GMT  
 Concurrent Oberon, where to get ?

Quote:



>[SNIP]

>> Again, the paper that was being referenced was not about networking
>> so even IF you didn't like his approach to networking I don't know what
>> that has to do with the subject in question.  That's like saying
>> "Michael Jordan must not be any good at basketball because he sucked
>> at golf and baseball".

>Basically his work is about concurrency. If it is in an network
>or a
>local environment doesn't matter.
>Did you like his proposal about local concurrency? Did you study
>it well?

Exactly!  So why are you so wrapped up with his understanding of
networking?  It was a while ago (read years) that I read his work.
But his work on concurrency looked simple to use and a good fit
for the Oberon system.

Quote:
>> >Because you explicitly referred to this non-relevant paper which
>> >proposed a solution which doesn't need any language change to
>> >accomplish the task I recommmend you to stop complaining about
>> >something you could have done easily by yourself.

>> Who said I was complaining?  And if it's so easy to do (whatever it
>> is you are talking about) why haven't you done it?

>You regreted that his work wasn't incorporated into any Oberon
>distribution.
>I didn't complain. I even didn't write that I would like to have
>this feature.

You seem to not understand the difference between a complaint and
a regret.  The difference is subtle, but it's definitely there.
Certainly I use Oberon without it having inherent concurrency, but
it would be would be a good selling point for those that want it,
or for those instances that it's useful.  Your suggestion of "why
don't you just do it yourself" is pretty silly.  If it's not in
the official release then it's not helping anyone else, just like
Spiros work hasn't helped anyone else outside of ETH.

Quote:
>> >The strange thing is that you only mentioned this paper but
>> >could have mentioned others where your complaining would have
>> >been more appropriate.

>> Again, where was I complaining?

>See above.

Ditto.

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Sun, 26 Oct 2003 22:00:59 GMT  
 Concurrent Oberon, where to get ?

Quote:
> >> >Because you explicitly referred to this non-relevant paper which
> >> >proposed a solution which doesn't need any language change to
> >> >accomplish the task I recommmend you to stop complaining about
> >> >something you could have done easily by yourself.

> >> Who said I was complaining?  And if it's so easy to do (whatever it
> >> is you are talking about) why haven't you done it?

> >You regreted that his work wasn't incorporated into any Oberon
> >distribution.
> >I didn't complain. I even didn't write that I would like to have
> >this feature.

> You seem to not understand the difference between a complaint and
> a regret.  The difference is subtle, but it's definitely there.
> Certainly I use Oberon without it having inherent concurrency, but
> it would be would be a good selling point for those that want it,
> or for those instances that it's useful.  Your suggestion of "why
> don't you just do it yourself" is pretty silly.  If it's not in
> the official release then it's not helping anyone else, just like
> Spiros work hasn't helped anyone else outside of ETH.

Hi, sort of funny discussion, isn't it ? But I finally can't resist
to give my 0.02$ :-)
First I want to tell you that I have Spiros work in some folder on
my bookshelf, but didn't find it at the moment. So I will give some
general comments.
I'm also missing preemptive multitasking in Oberon for a long time.
It seems like we will get it sometime in the future with AOS.
OTOH I can understand why Wirth didn't include it in Oberon the OS.
The fact that a thread can be interrupted by a timer or higher priority
thread makes the kernel much more complicated (Even if there are examples
which show that it's possible in just about 16K. E.g. pSOS)
You also have to see that a Unix-like system is simpler because
it normally has an MMU and so every process has it's own address space.
And if you want processes to access common memory you have to take
special measures.
So what I want to say is that Spiros work probably didn't need any
language changes but still a lot of kernel changes. So I guess that's part
of the reason it didn't catch on. Also porting a threading system to
another platform isn't (Or at least was) a piece of cake.

Cheers, Edgar

P.S. If I did miss the point because I was too lazy to search longer for the
printout of Spiros' work on concurrency please don't flame me too much :-)
--

*          DOSenfreie Zone.        Running Active Oberon.         *
Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler.     Albert Einstein



Mon, 27 Oct 2003 03:51:53 GMT  
 
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