Query: books on Oberon? Advice please. 
Author Message
 Query: books on Oberon? Advice please.

It must be almost two years ago now that I had
inquired about books on Oberon (Oberon/F did
not exist yet, I think I remember). Then, rumours
of delphi had held me back from investigating
Oberon further.

 Having now had a taste of Delphi... need I say
more?   Bookshops here do not normally stock
anything on Oberon. I would have to order the
books I want. Catch 22: I do not know, of course
which books to get. So, this is a cry for help.

 My programming background:
 First language: ALGOL 60
 Second: Simula 67 (from 1976 to 1982)
 Third:  Turbo Pascal 2.0 to 5.5, Borland Pascal 7
 (I skip fleeting forays into PLI/80, Forth, C++)

 OS used:  MS-DOS 5, DR-DOS 6, Windows 3.11

 Critical advice as to which book(s) to read is
 what I sorely need. I guess that they would
 be available from specialized bookshops in
 Switzerland, or in Europe. I would be most grateful
 for their addresses (it is much easier and faster
 to order directly from "overseas" than through
 an Australian bookshop... yes, I work in the
 antipodes).

 And lastly, are there any commercial versions
 of Oberon worth getting?

 Many thanks for any advice.




Sat, 17 Jan 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Query: books on Oberon? Advice please.

Quote:

>It must be almost two years ago now that I had
>inquired about books on Oberon (Oberon/F did
>not exist yet, I think I remember). Then, rumours
>of Delphi had held me back from investigating
>Oberon further.

> Having now had a taste of Delphi... need I say
>more?   Bookshops here do not normally stock
>anything on Oberon. I would have to order the
>books I want. Catch 22: I do not know, of course
>which books to get. So, this is a cry for help.

> My programming background:
> First language: ALGOL 60
> Second: Simula 67 (from 1976 to 1982)
> Third:  Turbo Pascal 2.0 to 5.5, Borland Pascal 7
> (I skip fleeting forays into PLI/80, Forth, C++)

> OS used:  MS-DOS 5, DR-DOS 6, Windows 3.11

> Critical advice as to which book(s) to read is
> what I sorely need. I guess that they would

Since you seem to have net access, you should get the Oberon language
reference from the ETH ftp server - this will give you a concise definition of
the language.  Then, as you already know programming, I suggest you skip
_Programming in Oberon_ by Martin Reiser (Addison Wesley).  

You should get _The Oberon System_ by Wirth & Reiser.  It explains how to
program for Oberon. (Addison Wesley)

If you are interested in Oberon-2 and OOP, then definitely get _Object
Oriented Programming in Oberon-2_ by Moessenboeck (Springer Verlag).

If you want to know the philosophy behind Oberon, get _Project Oberon_ by
Wirth (Addison Wesley).

I don't have the ISBNs handy, but I believe they are in the FAQ.  If they are
not in the FAQ, they are certainly in the readme which is distributed with my
system (which is archived at several ftp sites, including hades.ethz.ch).

Quote:
> be available from specialized bookshops in
> Switzerland, or in Europe. I would be most grateful
> for their addresses (it is much easier and faster
> to order directly from "overseas" than through
> an Australian bookshop... yes, I work in the
> antipodes).

> And lastly, are there any commercial versions
> of Oberon worth getting?

Yes, but I have a conflict of interest in answering that question.
You can get Oberon/F, which is somewhat different from standard Oberon.
You could get my distribution of V2 totally free.  You could get my V4 system
for free, but the compiler is not free (my system may not work with DR-DOS --
which is now Novell DOS.  Their DPMI server is non-compliant with the
standard).
You could get ModulaWare's standalone Oberon compilers, or RTA's standalone
compilers.  You could get ModulaWare's Mithril system (which is another
variation on the Oberon System).

It all depends on what you want to do.

Taylor Hutt, coffee maven
Are the antipodes anywhere near the lymph nodes?



Sat, 17 Jan 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Query: books on Oberon? Advice please.


[snip]

|>Since you seem to have net access, you should get the Oberon language
|>reference from the ETH ftp server - this will give you a concise definition of
|>the language.  Then, as you already know programming, I suggest you skip
|>_Programming in Oberon_ by Martin Reiser (Addison Wesley).  
|>
|>You should get _The Oberon System_ by Wirth & Reiser.  It explains how to
|>program for Oberon. (Addison Wesley)

A small correction here: Wirth is *not* the author of the latter book, only
Reiser is. I don't have "Programming in Oberon" but I think Wirth's co-authored
that one. Might make ordering easier.

T. Gani
|



Sat, 17 Jan 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Query: books on Oberon? Advice please.

Quote:

> _Programming in Oberon_ by Martin Reiser (Addison Wesley).  
> You should get _The Oberon System_ by Wirth & Reiser.  It explains how to
> program for Oberon. (Addison Wesley)
> If you are interested in Oberon-2 and OOP, then definitely get _Object
> Oriented Programming in Oberon-2_ by Moessenboeck (Springer Verlag).
> If you want to know the philosophy behind Oberon, get _Project Oberon_ by
> Wirth (Addison Wesley).

> I don't have the ISBNs handy, but I believe they are in the FAQ.  

Not only ISBNs, but also the correct titles and authors.
Note, that the books are oriented toward the "standard" V4 system,
not System 3.

N. Wirth and M. Reiser: Programming in Oberon -- Steps beyond
Pascal and Modula. Addison Wesley, 1992, ISBN 0-201-56543-9.
Tutorial for the Oberon programming language and concise
language reference.

N. Wirth and M. Reiser: Programmieren in Oberon -- Das neue
Pascal. Addison Wesley, 1994, ISBN 3-89319-657-9. The German
translation of Programming in Oberon.

M. Reiser: The Oberon System: User Guide and Programmer's
Manual. Addison Wesley, 1991, ISBN 0-201-54422-9. User manual
for the programming environment and reference for the standard
module library.

N. Wirth and J. Gutknecht: Project Oberon. The Design of an
Operating System and Compiler. Addison Wesley, 1992, ISBN
0-201-54428-8. Program listings with explanation for the whole
system, including the compiler for NS32000.

H. Mossenbock: Object-Oriented Programming in Oberon-2.
Springer, 1993, ISBN 3-540-56411-X. Principles and
applications of object-oriented programming with examples in
the language Oberon-2.

Hope it helps.
Wojtek



Sat, 17 Jan 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Query: books on Oberon? Advice please.
You can tray

The Oberon System Martin Reiser ISBN 0-201-54422-9
Proyect Oberon Wirth-Gutknecht ISBN 0-201-54428-8

Walter.



Sat, 17 Jan 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Query: books on Oberon? Advice please.

Quote:

> And lastly, are there any commercial versions
> of Oberon worth getting?

There are varying views on the preferred Oberon systems, partly
based upon which ones people have invested a lot of time learning
the quirks.   While the jury is still out, or hung, I think it
is well worth getting, and trying out, the free educational
version of Oberon/F .  If you want to develop and sell application,
you can later get the commercial verson.

The Ed. version has everything the commercial version of Oberon/F has
except the capability to link stand-alone windows applications.  Its
virtues (or defects depending upon your point of view) are that it is a
distillation of some of the best parts of previous Oberons, and that
its look and feel is that of Ms. Windows, not the look and feel of the
original Oberon systems (no interclicking, no two-track windows).

A book on Oberon/F may appear in some months, but the distribution
you can get via ftp comes with extensive help files that constitute
documentation about as complete as the earlier Oberon Text files.  
This documentation has improved in going from version 1.0 to 1.1,
but still could use some improvement.

Bob Hjellming

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Sun, 18 Jan 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Query: books on Oberon? Advice please.
The message I just sent contained a major error by implying that
Oberon/F had the feel of MS/Windows.  It is, of course, a multi-platform
product which has the look and feel of the platform, which at the
moment means either MS/Windows or Mac.  I believe others are in the works

--

=========================================================================
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__
National Radio Astronomy Observatory  |                             | \/
o\
P.O. Box O                            | Telephone: 505-835-7273     |
/\__/
(1003 Lopezville Road - UPS etc. only)|                             |
Socorro, NM  87801-0387  USA          | FAX:       505-835-7027     |
AMDG
=========================================================================
===



Sun, 18 Jan 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Query: books on Oberon? Advice please.

Quote:

>H. Mossenbock: Object-Oriented Programming in Oberon-2.
>Springer, 1993, ISBN 3-540-56411-X. Principles and
>applications of object-oriented programming with examples in
>the language Oberon-2.

The ISBN number given is for the German edition. For the English
edition the correct number is 0-387-56411-X.


by e-mail. They ship worldwide. Prices are :
Wirth & Reiser : US$34.95
Reiser : US$ 34.95
Wirth & Gutknecht : US$ 40.95
M?ssenb?ck : US$ 39.00

Luc



Mon, 19 Jan 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Query: books on Oberon? Advice please.

Quote:

>It must be almost two years ago now that I had
>inquired about books on Oberon (Oberon/F did
>not exist yet, I think I remember). Then, rumours
>of Delphi had held me back from investigating
>Oberon further.
> My programming background:
> First language: ALGOL 60
> Second: Simula 67 (from 1976 to 1982)
> Third:  Turbo Pascal 2.0 to 5.5, Borland Pascal 7
> (I skip fleeting forays into PLI/80, Forth, C++)

I was where you are now 2 months ago.  I got "Programming in Oberon,
Steps beyond Pascal and Modula"  Reiser and Wirth 1992 from the
university library.  Its example at the end is Discrete Event
Simulation.  So if you were using Simula for simulation you might like
it.

On the other hand I lost interest when I discovered Java on
http://Java.sun.com this takes the best bits from C++ and ObjectiveC
and throws away the outdated concepts from ANSI C.  It has a garbage
collector like OBERON.  But best of all its full source code is
available free of charge, unlike Oberon.   So I suggest new
programmers defect to Java.  Until ETH changes its attitude.  There
are no books available for it, its too new.  And there are only Sun
Solaris and WinNT versions available right now, but Windows95, MacOS
7.5, Linux, HP RISC, AIX4.1,ALPHA OSF/1 and others are being worked
on, and most of these will probably be free, and Morgan Stanley for
some reason have requested an MVS version!!
Of course its main claim to fame is its ability to generate applets,
these are programs embedded in WWW pages.  They work in the HotJava
browser or Netscape 2.0.   More discussion on comp.object,
comp.lang.misc    news.announce.newgroups will any day now feature the
Call For Vote for comp.lang.java.

Hope this improves the rest of your guys chance of getting ETH to
release all the source code it can find.


Aberdeen, Scotland

"All opinions must be my own, since nobody pays me
 enough to be their mouthpiece."



Tue, 20 Jan 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Query: books on Oberon? Advice please.

Quote:

> On the other hand I lost interest when I discovered Java on
> http://Java.sun.com this takes the best bits from C++ and ObjectiveC
> and throws away the outdated concepts from ANSI C.  It has a garbage
> collector like OBERON.  But best of all its full source code is
> available free of charge, unlike Oberon.   So I suggest new
> programmers defect to Java.  Until ETH changes its attitude.  There
> are no books available for it, its too new.  And there are only Sun
> Solaris and WinNT versions available right now, but Windows95, MacOS
> 7.5, Linux, HP RISC, AIX4.1,ALPHA OSF/1 and others are being worked
> on, and most of these will probably be free, and Morgan Stanley for
> some reason have requested an MVS version!!
> Of course its main claim to fame is its ability to generate applets,
> these are programs embedded in WWW pages.  They work in the HotJava
> browser or Netscape 2.0.   More discussion on comp.object,
> comp.lang.misc    news.announce.newgroups will any day now feature the
> Call For Vote for comp.lang.java.

> Hope this improves the rest of your guys chance of getting ETH to
> release all the source code it can find.

Not all ETH developers read c.l.o., and certainly the Oberon Funding
Fathers do not. Other than defection (which will remain unnoticed)
the only possible way to make them release sources is a letter-writing
campaign. If Professor Wirth receives a few hundred e-mails addressing
this issue, he may reconsider. May be.

Wojtek



Tue, 20 Jan 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Query: books on Oberon? Advice please.

Quote:

> Not all ETH developers read c.l.o., and certainly the Oberon Funding
> Fathers do not. Other than defection (which will remain unnoticed)
> the only possible way to make them release sources is a letter-writing
> campaign. If Professor Wirth receives a few hundred e-mails addressing
> this issue, he may reconsider. May be.

> Wojtek

   You know, I don't think the folks at ETHZ realize what they are
missing by NOT publishing the source code for Oberon. I think they
are worried about the negative consequences of releasing source code.
Personally I think releasing the source code will really not be that
big of an annoyance for ETHZ and at best may do much good in
promoting Oberon.
   Drawing on my years of experience with just such issue as source
code publishing, here is what I see are scenarios to publishing
Oberon source code.

   1.) Even if ETHZ releases the source and widely publishes where
the sources are, sure enough, several months down the road someone
will be asking where they can get the source code. The requests will
increase with the age of the initial ETHZ announcement of sources. I
guarantee it. It's just a fact of life. Only those who will
eventually make a positive contribution to Oberon will remember where
the sources are.

   2.) Many will initially look at the sources and will become so
overwhelmed that they will do nothing. They will be happy in the
comfort that source is just available and will happily promote Oberon
for ETHZ just because source code exists!

   3.) Others will look at the source and will really find bugs for
ETHZ. They will be able to make informed suggestions for improvements
to Oberon. They will be able to field the more difficult technical
questions asked on the net just as well as the creators of Oberon at
ETHZ. Because of their contributions to Oberon they will feel as part
of the Oberon team. If these people also get recognition from ETHZ
(as in the MacOberon credits) you will have created an Oberon
evangelist.

   4.) The last part, which probably ETHZ just dreads, are those who
will study the code and ask, and ask, and ask questions of ETHZ only
never to do anything with Oberon except to pique their own curiosity.
Of this part there will be those who will be influenced by the code
in Oberon in their own future programming efforts. Not a bad
extension to ETHZs teaching mission, if I do say so myself.
   As for the rest of the dead-beat code voyeurs, ETHZ could figure
them out in no time. Empty, silly questions coming from the same
person 3 or 4 times would tip-off ETHZ personnel to turn a deaf
E-mail ear to that person.

---------------------------------------------------------------
                               |
  Alex M. Waller               |  Internet address:

  M.S. 360                     |
  P.O. Box 500                 |
  Batavia, Il 60510            |
                               |
---------------------------------------------------------------



Tue, 20 Jan 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Query: books on Oberon? Advice please.


about eventual releasing the Oberon code by ETH:

 [ cut ]

I agree with you to the last letter, and rather than repeating
your post, or trying to add anything of my own, I hope others will
read it at least a few times. Esp. ETH developers should stop
dreading would-be consequences of releasing their code, which as you
said do not exist.

I myself promise to:
1. write down the ftp location of the code;
2. answer newbie questions "where is the code?";
3. never look at it myself;
4. never ask questions about the code, which I am unable to comprehend
   anyway.

Wojtek



Wed, 21 Jan 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Query: books on Oberon? Advice please.

: > Not all ETH developers read c.l.o., and certainly the Oberon Funding
: > Fathers do not. Other than defection (which will remain unnoticed)
: > the only possible way to make them release sources is a letter-writing
: > campaign. If Professor Wirth receives a few hundred e-mails addressing
: > this issue, he may reconsider. May be.
: >
: > Wojtek

:    You know, I don't think the folks at ETHZ realize what they are
: missing by NOT publishing the source code for Oberon. I think they
: are worried about the negative consequences of releasing source code.
: Personally I think releasing the source code will really not be that
: big of an annoyance for ETHZ and at best may do much good in
: promoting Oberon.

--snip--

  I agree with most of what Alex said (see snipped) and would like to add
another insight or two.  The language MAINSAIL (which most of you have
never heard of) is now suffering having hung in there since 1978.  They
adopted the strategy that only Xidak (the makers) would control the
source code.  In this way the user would not be faced with multiple
implementations.  Its always difficult to attribute cause to a result
but I think this contol has been a contributing factor to the lack of
spread of MAINSAIL (there are a few (large) CAD users which keep the
language going).
  A second more personal reason for Oberon's lack of support here
at my company is the fear that it is an "Academic" languge which
does not have any support.  What if ETHZ makes a policy change
about Oberon then any code developed in the language by us is
dead and so is our company!  If, however, we did have source code
to all of Oberon V4 (say) then we could at least take on the
responsibilty and have the capability of maintaining our custormer
base independent of ETHZ. We continue to survive!
  So, I strongly second Alex.  The pluses out weigh the minuses when
it comes to releasing full source code for Oberon.

-Doug Danforth
--
UME Voice, The speech recognition standard for Wall Street.



Wed, 21 Jan 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Query: books on Oberon? Advice please.

Quote:

>    You know, I don't think the folks at ETHZ realize what they are
> missing by NOT publishing the source code for Oberon.

Concerning the V4/System-3 competition: the camp, which releases
the source, will have a clear edge over the competing camp. This
is for sure. Once they realise this, we will see the source soon :-)

But seriously, the announced release of the bare PC version will make
little sense, if it is not accompanied by the full source of the base
system. This is because of drivers. Looking at what is going on in Linux
quarters, I am afraid the bare PC version will have much the same problems.
Maybe it can utilize Windows drivers? Or Linux drivers? This would solve
the problem. But if not, the hardware drivers will have to be developed
somehow, and to do this the driver developers will have to have the full
source available. Gadgets source will not be needed, but the base system
source, yes. I wonder what Peter Mueller thinks of this.

Wojtek



Thu, 22 Jan 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 
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