Greg likes Oberon (response) 
Author Message
 Greg likes Oberon (response)

Greg DeLozier recently posted quite a lengthy discussion of his
introduction to Oberon and the Oberon system.

"That's good.  You have taken your first step into a large world"
    Obi-wan Kenobi to Luke Skywalker in Episode IV -- A New Hope.

Finally, someone who has opened their mind to the difference of
Oberon, accepted them, and found that they are incredible!

Welcome!  Another Oberon system (which will support Oberon-2) will be
available in the near future.  I am in the process of cleaning up the
VGA driver (VGA code tonight (finally, for those old timers), I
promise)).

Your complaints about printing and mouse clicks are understood, and
voiced somewhat by us too.  We are thinking of ways to solve the
printing problem, but can see no way to solve the mouse button
problem (besides, I think it is too powerful to drop completely).

Quote:
> Of course, this whole explanation is based on my highly subjective
> experience, and perhaps someone from ETH can enlighten us further.

Subjective or not, you have hit the nail on the head with your
description. (I'm not from ETH, but I play one on TV.... :-) sorry to
non-US readers.  It is in reference to a stupid TV commercial for
aspirin.  The person says "I am not a doctor, but I play one on TV")

Quote:
> Now, to be honest, I'd submit JCL on punched cards if I had to in order
> to use this language in a 32-bit flat addressing space on my 386 PC.

Hear! Hear!!!!!! The big boys (MS, Borland, and the like) cannot
produce a 32bit compiler for DOS that is less than ~$1000 US, and here
is ETH with one for FREE!!!!

Soon, there will be a 32bit Oberon-2 available also!  Real cheap!

Quote:
> 4. The MSDos documents mention version 3 and a thing called Gadgets. But
> if it's on the ftp site, it's hiding! This may fix some of these

It is not hiding, it is not available yet.

Gadgets is an INCREDIBLE graphical system for Oberon that is not
quite complete yet.  In my eyes, it reminds me of the NeXT interface.
It is a heck of a lot better than the way MS Windows does nearly the
same task.  It has been several weeks since I have used it, but if
you are interested, I can give a better review.  Another person who
has seen it first hand (and sent me email) stayed up till 5am playing
with it.  It is that good!  (To those of you who got "A Guide to
Natural Naming", did I give you bad advice on that one?)

Quote:
> Anyway, the bottom line for me is that I have definitely decided I can
> do some 'good stuff' in this environment.

You bet you can!  Here are some ideas:  A viewer / editor for
Cryllic, Kana, Hangul, Urdu, or other non-ASCII languages.  An
integrated document/program system.  A terminal program that used the
Oberon environment to its fullest.

Quote:
>>I believe users expect a much easier system than that which Oberon
>>                ^^^^^^
>>currently provides.
> Well, that's just it. What we *expect* might be getting in the way of
> what *is*.

Precisely.  The typical knee-jerk reaction is to dislike Oberon
because it is not familiar.  But, this is typical human nature
(unfortunately).  I suspect this part of the reason sells so well,
disregarding the fact of the managers that are asleep at the helm.
(eg: Borland is now selling dBase IV, version 2 for $99.95 US (suggested
retail is $795 US.  Now, suppose they are only making $1 US on each
copy.  They probably are making 10s of thousands of sales at this
price.  You can bet that it is more than $1 US profit on each sale,
as a full page 4 color ad in BYTE was $12,000 US in 1989.  10,000
sales would not even pay for the ad.  Now, think of how much your
company is getting ripped off when they buy dBase IV version 2 at
$795 US!!!!!!  Management must be braindead to not see this!)

Taylor "Star Wars Fanatic" Hutt
Now accepting London pub recommendations.



Mon, 16 Oct 1995 07:49:21 GMT  
 Greg likes Oberon (response)

Quote:

>Your complaints about printing and mouse clicks are understood, and
>voiced somewhat by us too.  We are thinking of ways to solve the
>printing problem, but can see no way to solve the mouse button
>problem (besides, I think it is too powerful to drop completely).

It is very powerfull indeed. After a while, once you get used to you
definietely work a LOT faster using interclicks. By doing so one of
the most stringent flaws of modern computersystems is reduced. It is
crazy to work on a keyboard, use the mouse to select something and work
on the keyboard again. ALl these switchings require time and are
highly uneffective.

Quote:
>Hear! Hear!!!!!! The big boys (MS, Borland, and the like) cannot
>produce a 32bit compiler for DOS that is less than ~$1000 US, and here
>is ETH with one for FREE!!!!

This is a very bad example since tax-payers are paying daily a sub-
stantial amount for us guys at ETH, doing work. SO if you come in
calculating what we invested into the development, gee that may be
costly all of a sudden.

Quote:
>Gadgets is an INCREDIBLE graphical system for Oberon that is not
>quite complete yet.  In my eyes, it reminds me of the NeXT interface.
>It is a heck of a lot better than the way MS Windows does nearly the
>same task.  It has been several weeks since I have used it, but if
>you are interested, I can give a better review.  Another person who
>has seen it first hand (and sent me email) stayed up till 5am playing
>with it.  It is that good!  (To those of you who got "A Guide to
>Natural Naming", did I give you bad advice on that one?)

One of the best software-system I have ever seen. It is fantastic.

Quote:
>>>I believe users expect a much easier system than that which Oberon
>>>                ^^^^^^
>>>currently provides.
>> Well, that's just it. What we *expect* might be getting in the way of
>> what *is*.

This is always the mismatch between having a REALLY powerfull system and
expecting an extremely easy to use system.


Tue, 17 Oct 1995 13:23:42 GMT  
 Greg likes Oberon (response)

Quote:

> Your complaints about printing and mouse clicks are understood, and
> voiced somewhat by us too.  We are thinking of ways to solve the
> printing problem, but can see no way to solve the mouse button
> problem (besides, I think it is too powerful to drop completely).

I'm sorry to hear that since I have a three button mouse with a driver that
works (it came with the no-name clone system I bought). The three button
capability is so much nicer. If only I could set it on the command line...
And while I'm wishing, how about an 800x600 viewing mode. Any higher resolution
is unreadable on my 14" monitor.


Wed, 18 Oct 1995 02:49:30 GMT  
 Greg likes Oberon (response)

Quote:

>Greg DeLozier recently posted quite a lengthy discussion of his
>introduction to Oberon and the Oberon system.

>"That's good.  You have taken your first step into a large world"
>    Obi-wan Kenobi to Luke Skywalker in Episode IV -- A New Hope.

I'm flattered by the comparison. Really.

Quote:
>Finally, someone who has opened their mind to the difference of
>Oberon, accepted them, and found that they are incredible!

Well, I must admit it takes some deliberate effort to understand
the Oberon system and the concepts behind it, but I must agree,
the system is incredible. The ease of development in it is just
amazing, once you get past the initial hurdles. As someone who's
had C shoved at him for all these years, it's nice to feel a little
bit vindicated.

Quote:
>Welcome!  Another Oberon system (which will support Oberon-2) will be
>available in the near future.  I am in the process of cleaning up the
>VGA driver (VGA code tonight (finally, for those old timers), I
>promise)).

This is an intriguing promise. Does this mean we may be able to get
SVGA support on something other than an ET4000? I have 256-color
support for portable programming between my Mac and SPARC platforms,
and if I could get all 256 colors working on my SVGA (I have the
Paradise chip set in a Dell) I think I'd be *very* happy, indeed...

Quote:
>Your complaints about printing and mouse clicks are understood, and
>voiced somewhat by us too.

I'd say they were more in the way of observations than complaints,
as I've always believed it's poor manners to complain about gifts.
In any case, I've had some encouraging words about both the DOS and
Mac print drivers from people at ETH. (Staffed by Jedi, judging
from the amazingly helpful and rapid email responses I've been getting...)

Quote:
>Subjective or not, you have hit the nail on the head with your
>description.

Thanks. Now I'm *really* flattered.

Quote:

>> Now, to be honest, I'd submit JCL on punched cards if I had to in order
>> to use this language in a 32-bit flat addressing space on my 386 PC.

>Hear! Hear!!!!!! The big boys (MS, Borland, and the like) cannot
>produce a 32bit compiler for DOS that is less than ~$1000 US, and here
>is ETH with one for FREE!!!!

Yes, I've wondered about this myself. What in the world is so hard
about the idea of making a decent, cheap 32-bit compiler? I'll be damned
if I know. Back when I was taking compiler courses, it seemed to me
the machinations necessary to create a 16-bit compiler were more extensive
than for a decent 32-bit machine. When the people at ETH can make such
a nice product for free, I wonder why Watcom, et. al. can still charge
such a fortune. Pity, isn't it?

Quote:
>Gadgets is an INCREDIBLE graphical system for Oberon that is not
>quite complete yet.  In my eyes, it reminds me of the NeXT interface.
>It is a heck of a lot better than the way MS Windows does nearly the
>same task.  It has been several weeks since I have used it, but if
>you are interested, I can give a better review.

I am *definitely* interested, as are several other people who are also
becoming interested in Oberon around here. Any idea when it might
be available?

Quote:
>> Anyway, the bottom line for me is that I have definitely decided I can
>> do some 'good stuff' in this environment.

>You bet you can!  Here are some ideas:  A viewer / editor for
>Cryllic, Kana, Hangul, Urdu, or other non-ASCII languages.  An
>integrated document/program system.  A terminal program that used the
>Oberon environment to its fullest.

Well, actually, I would like to do these things, but what I meant by
'good stuff' at this point were things that were a little more
pragmatic: both my work and doct{*filter*}studies lean heavily toward
image processing and graphics work, so that's my primary set of
activities. Although I am toying with the idea of writing a little
flight simulator in Oberon; I have it coded up in Pascal for another
machine but it looks like it might be kind of fun if I can get the
graphics to perform well enough.

Quote:
>>>I believe users expect a much easier system than that which Oberon
>>>                ^^^^^^
>>>currently provides.

>> Well, that's just it. What we *expect* might be getting in the way of
>> what *is*.

>Precisely.  The typical knee-jerk reaction is to dislike Oberon
>because it is not familiar.  But, this is typical human nature
>(unfortunately).

Actually, that statement above is an attitude I apply to life in
general: to try not to let what I *expect* interfere with perceiving
what *is*. It happens to work extremely well with Oberon (as well
as romance, children, and certain kinds of ethnic foods...)

Quote:
>company is getting ripped off when they buy dBase IV version 2 at
>$795 US!!!!!!  Management must be braindead to not see this!)

Well, in this case, management asked my opinion first, so we may
be able to save them from this fate,eh?

Quote:

>Taylor "Star Wars Fanatic" Hutt

You won't believe how hard it is to resist commenting on this... :-)

Anyway, thanks for your comments. I'm glad my little discourse was
received so well. Things are working out pretty well for me using
this system, and I just didn't want to see someone give up on it
too easily.

Best wishes,
-greg
---
Greg DeLozier/Senior Scientific Analyst/L{*filter*}Defense Systems



Wed, 18 Oct 1995 12:20:27 GMT  
 
 [ 4 post ] 

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