Oberon 2 compiler 
Author Message
 Oberon 2 compiler

I wonder, which is the best Oberon-2 compiler for Windows 95. What do you
think?



Mon, 22 May 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Oberon 2 compiler

Quote:

> I wonder, which is the best Oberon-2 compiler for Windows 95. What do you
> think?

 For Windows 95 (and Windows 3.1) there are serveral choices that I'm aware
of.

1) Oberon V4
    *Closest to the "original" Oberon system
    *Implemented on the most platforms (though there are differences on each
platform implementation)
    *Has small memory requirements

2) Oberon System 3
    *Cool "Gadgets" user interface
    *Slim binaries (The same compiled program can be run on both Intel and
PowerPC)
    *Takes significantly more memory than V4
    *Currently only available for Native PC, Windows, Mac and Unix platforms

    *Development system for Juice

3) BlackBox Component Pascal (Used to be Oberon/F)
    *Programs have more of a Windows (or Mac) "look and feel" than programs
in Oberon V4 and
     system 3
    *Works fine with 1 and 2 button mice.  (System 3 and V4 almost require 3
button mice.  Can
     work around with keyboard)
    *Must purchase to compile stand-alone programs
    * Recently added some "non-Oberon" features to the language.

4) POW
    * Only available for Windows Platform
    * Programs have Windows "look and feel"
    * Document style interface (Opal++) still in development (last time I
checked).
    * Trial version allows creation of stand-alone programs

It's hard to say which one is best.  Each system has it's own set of "neat
features" that probably could
be ported to other systems, but with some effort.  V4 and System 3 have
probably had the most
development.  The both have full Internet programming libraries (including
HTML browser).
BlackBox and POW will let you create programs that people unfamilair with
Oberon can use.
(I remember when I first tried using Oberon, I was frustrated by the fact
that I was using a
two button mouse and all of the "actions" used the middle button...the one
most likely to be
missing.  Sure, the online docs told how to use Oberon with a two button
mouse, but you had
to use Oberon to read the online docs to find that out.)

Personally I think BlackBox with it's blend native OS windowing and document
style interface
is the best, though I occasionally use the others also.



Mon, 22 May 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Oberon 2 compiler


Quote:


>> I wonder, which is the best Oberon-2 compiler for Windows 95. What do you
>> think?

For the interest of science let me correct your info a little bit:

Quote:

>  For Windows 95 (and Windows 3.1) there are serveral choices that I'm aware
> of.

> 1) Oberon V4
>     *Closest to the "original" Oberon system
>     *Implemented on the most platforms (though there are differences on each
> platform implementation)
>     *Has small memory requirements

Here you mean ETH V4. There is also different Linz V4, which should
be clearly differentiated from ETH V4 because the two are hardly
compatible anymore.

Quote:
> 2) Oberon System 3
>     *Cool "Gadgets" user interface
>     *Slim binaries (The same compiled program can be run on both Intel and
> PowerPC)
>     *Takes significantly more memory than V4
>     *Currently only available for Native PC, Windows, Mac and Unix platforms
>     *Development system for Juice                             ****

"Available for Unix platforms" would be wonderful. Currently it is only
Linux, though HP-UX port is reportedly in the works (any recent info
on HP-UX?).

Your list does not seem complete to me. What about XDS compilers?
I suspect though I am not sure that command line Oberon compiler(s)
such as O2C and OOC may have Windows versions available.
As usual, the best way to find out is to check Guy Laden's reference
site, which is up-to-date and contains pointers to respective vendors.

Quote:
> V4 and System 3 have probably had the most
> development.  The both have full Internet programming libraries (including
> HTML browser).

This is only true about Linz V4, but not ETH V4. Again it is important
to differentiate the two.

Quote:
> Personally I think BlackBox with it's blend native OS windowing
> and document style interface
> is the best, though I occasionally use the others also.

That is a matter of opinion. I would use Linz V4 in the first place.
For "industrial strength" applications I would probably use BlackBox.
In order to wow! everybody I would use System-3, but here one has
to be prepared for some surprises. This is my personal order of preference.
One has to carefully evaluate these and other Oberons to match one's needs.

Check http://www.math.tau.ac.il/~laden/Ob-pkgs.html as a starting point.

Hope it helps,
Wojtek

--

Nuclear Structure Research Lab, Univ. of Rochester
271 East River Rd, Rochester, NY 14627.
phone (716) 275 2524  fax (716) 473 5384
World Wide Web: http://nuchem.nsrl.rochester.edu/~skulski



Tue, 23 May 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Oberon 2 compiler

Hello!

Quote:
>>> I wonder, which is the best Oberon-2 compiler for Windows 95. What do you
>>> think?
>I suspect though I am not sure that command line Oberon compiler(s)
>such as O2C and OOC may have Windows versions available.

oo2c has at least compiled a little hello world porgram under Windows NT 4.0
using the cygnus win32 gnu package. But there are known problems: The configure
script does not run because of the esoteric filenameing schema of windows. The
library - especially the io routines - have to be adapted to the format of the
windows textfiles (CR+LF and EOT) in some way. Also there way be the need for
some extentions at the compiler itself to support the various linking stuff of
windows like __cdecl etc... But this should be very easy to fix. After that
there would be the need to adapt window.h to oberon-2. I would do all that
stuff myself to give a base for a VisualOberon port to windows but I havn't got
the time.

However I'm sure the ooc team would be happy if someone would do this.

--
Gru?...
       Tim.



Fri, 26 May 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Oberon 2 compiler

All very interesting, this list of various Oberon versions, but it only
adds to my confusion...

I too am new to Oberon. Or at least, to seriously giving it a try. (I
believe I still have a vintage '93 version of the Oberon for Mac
somewhere on a disk.)
I downloaded and installed the Linz V4 Oberon for Win95 last week and
played around a bit, reading some of the docs, looking for some clues as
to how I could start programming, and looking for some clues about what
applications (if any) would be included and how to start them.
I didn't get very far so I decided to look around on the net for more
docs etc.

But now I'm wondering what Oberon version to install & use... What are
the advantages of Oberon System3v2 over LinzV4? What are the
disadvantages?
Would it be possible to do Juice-development with LinzV4? (I guess not
as you need to compile so platform-independant binaries.)

How compatible/incompatible are programs written for one version of
Oberon with another version... Say for instance, I write something in
Sys3v2 and decide I want to run it on LinzV4 instead, how much work
would that be? Is it possible to port add-ons from one version to the
other, like bringing the LinzV4 dialogs to System3 so that LinzV4
programs run on System3?

Java has a clear API to write to that is readily accessible, and some
online-tutorials. Of course, Java has the financial backing of Sun
behind it and  Of course, the Java API is evolving rather quickly. But
at least there's a common AWT api for ur basic windowing programs and
"Swing" is on it's way, promising us a wonderful and complete
windowing-system, easy to write for, changeable looks, and terribly slow
too.
But for Oberon, I'm told to buy books, I have to search for API
documentation and a guide to the language.

Perhaps I'm spoiled by the easy point-and-click Web interface, and the
ease of "Add Bookmark".

Anyway, ignore my babbling, let me repeat my questions...
* What are advantages of Oberon System3v2 over LinzV4, what are
  disadvantages?
* What is the best way to get started programming Oberon, preferably
  without buying books or printing huge postscript files?
* What sort of documentation is delivered with each distribution and
  where do I find it, what do I type/click to read it?

Thanks for any info!

:-)

--Tim

Quote:




> >> I wonder, which is the best Oberon-2 compiler for Windows 95. What do you
> >> think?

> For the interest of science let me correct your info a little bit:

> >  For Windows 95 (and Windows 3.1) there are serveral choices that I'm aware
> > of.

> > 1) Oberon V4
> >     *Closest to the "original" Oberon system
> >     *Implemented on the most platforms (though there are differences on each
> > platform implementation)
> >     *Has small memory requirements

> Here you mean ETH V4. There is also different Linz V4, which should
> be clearly differentiated from ETH V4 because the two are hardly
> compatible anymore.

> > 2) Oberon System 3
> >     *Cool "Gadgets" user interface
> >     *Slim binaries (The same compiled program can be run on both Intel and
> > PowerPC)
> >     *Takes significantly more memory than V4
> >     *Currently only available for Native PC, Windows, Mac and Unix platforms
> >     *Development system for Juice                             ****

> "Available for Unix platforms" would be wonderful. Currently it is only
> Linux, though HP-UX port is reportedly in the works (any recent info
> on HP-UX?).

[...]

> > V4 and System 3 have probably had the most
> > development.  The both have full Internet programming libraries (including
> > HTML browser).

> This is only true about Linz V4, but not ETH V4. Again it is important
> to differentiate the two.

> > Personally I think BlackBox with it's blend native OS windowing
> > and document style interface
> > is the best, though I occasionally use the others also.

> That is a matter of opinion. I would use Linz V4 in the first place.
> For "industrial strength" applications I would probably use BlackBox.
> In order to wow! everybody I would use System-3, but here one has
> to be prepared for some surprises. This is my personal order of preference.
> One has to carefully evaluate these and other Oberons to match one's needs.

> Check http://www.math.tau.ac.il/~laden/Ob-pkgs.html as a starting point.

> Hope it helps,
> Wojtek

> --

> Nuclear Structure Research Lab, Univ. of Rochester
> 271 East River Rd, Rochester, NY 14627.
> phone (716) 275 2524  fax (716) 473 5384
> World Wide Web: http://nuchem.nsrl.rochester.edu/~skulski



Fri, 26 May 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Oberon 2 compiler

Quote:

> "Available for Unix platforms" would be wonderful. Currently it is only
> Linux, though HP-UX port is reportedly in the works (any recent info
> on HP-UX?).

So, because you ask for it.
In spring I ported S3 2.1 to HPUX Risc. It's running at least on HPUX 9 and
10.20. Hardware is 9000/715 and now also a B-class machine.
It was based on a V4 from ETH and Linux S3 2.1. For certain reasons it didn't
make it in time for the CD.
I also had my priorities more on updating FPA (for emulating a floating
point processor) for NativeOberon the last 3 months.
What's still missing is mostly net stuff (mail, ftp, www, ...). This just
isn't on my priority list. For that I have Netscape.
I also have had the Linux S3 2.2 sources now for a while. Beginning next week
I'm on holidays for 4 weeks. Probably I will update my port to 2.2.
So if anybody out there is interested in a HPUX Version of S3 2.2 he can
mail me.
Then I can decide whether it's worth the trouble do make a distribution.
Don't underestimate the time necessary to organize that !

Regards Edgar

--  

--------------- Gerberstrasse 33, D-71522 Backnang, Germany -----------------
    At home you can program in C or look videos as much as you like !
                            Niklaus Wirth
         Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler !
                            Albert Einstein



Fri, 26 May 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Oberon 2 compiler


Quote:
>>I suspect though I am not sure that command line Oberon compiler(s)
>>such as O2C and OOC may have Windows versions available.

>oo2c has at least compiled a little hello world porgram under Windows NT 4.0
>using the cygnus win32 gnu package. But there are known problems: The configure
>script does not run because of the esoteric filenameing schema of windows. The
>library - especially the io routines - have to be adapted to the format of the
>windows textfiles (CR+LF and EOT) in some way. Also there way be the need for
>some extentions at the compiler itself to support the various linking stuff of
>windows like __cdecl etc... But this should be very easy to fix. After that
>there would be the need to adapt window.h to oberon-2. I would do all that
>stuff myself to give a base for a VisualOberon port to windows but I havn't got
>the time.

I guess this is a good time to confess. I have a (very) preliminary port of
oo2c to the Macintosh (PPC) under Metrowerks Codewarrior PR2. It has
successfully compiled all of lib, except for the X11 stuff. It has also
successfully compiled and executed "Hello Oberon".

Note that not that all of lib is applicable to the Mac, but the port still
translates it to C quite happily. There are still problems with paths and
the interface is very clunky so I would not say it is ready for general
consumption. (It would be nice to integrate it with the Metrowerks IDE some
day.)

I will not be able to work on it for a while, but would do what I can to
help others polish it up if they are in a hurry. Otherwise, I am afraid
you'll have to be patient...

Mark

--

University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Real-Time Systems Laboratory
--



Fri, 26 May 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Oberon 2 compiler



Quote:
> All very interesting, this list of various Oberon versions, but it only
> adds to my confusion...
> Anyway, ignore my babbling, let me repeat my questions...
> * What are advantages of Oberon System3v2 over LinzV4, what are
>   disadvantages?
> * What is the best way to get started programming Oberon, preferably
>   without buying books or printing huge PostScript files?
> * What sort of documentation is delivered with each distribution and
>   where do I find it, what do I type/click to read it?

Everyone in this newsgroup has his/her own strong opinions. This time I will
refrain from exposing mine, but rather I am hoping the developers themselves
will step forward and say what they think. IMHO your questions are very well
posed and legitimate. Could someone from the respective developer teams pls
step forward and answer? In fact this should be in the FAQ.

W.
--

Nuclear Structure Research Lab, Univ. of Rochester
271 East River Rd, Rochester, NY 14627.
phone (716) 275 2524  fax (716) 473 5384
World Wide Web: http://nuchem.nsrl.rochester.edu/~skulski



Fri, 26 May 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Oberon 2 compiler

Quote:



> > All very interesting, this list of various Oberon versions, but it only
> > adds to my confusion...

> > Anyway, ignore my babbling, let me repeat my questions...
> > * What are advantages of Oberon System3v2 over LinzV4, what are
> >   disadvantages?
> > * What is the best way to get started programming Oberon, preferably
> >   without buying books or printing huge PostScript files?
> > * What sort of documentation is delivered with each distribution and
> >   where do I find it, what do I type/click to read it?

> Everyone in this newsgroup has his/her own strong opinions. This time I will
> refrain from exposing mine, but rather I am hoping the developers themselves
> will step forward and say what they think. IMHO your questions are very well
> posed and legitimate. Could someone from the respective developer teams pls
> step forward and answer? In fact this should be in the FAQ.

Since posting this message, I did download BlackBox (and peeked at it,
looks nice but not the same as "true" Oberon of course!). I downloaded
the System3 too but haven't installed it yet...

What I learned so far, is that they all have their "own" ways of doing
some interfacing with platform-native GUI systems, and I can guess that
these are quite unportable. I haven't hit on any good programming
guides, but perhaps the System3 "Spirit of Oberon" includes some, and
there's some links on the net that might be worthwile. Also, the docs
that come with BlackBox might be very helpful. However, counting in
System3 I now have 3 Oberon systems installed against only one Java
system (+plus two IDE's but that's another matter). Far from ideal!
Two of them will have to go.

I feel Oberon will have advantages to me in creating tools for my own
personal use, and I like to experiment with with Juice so it will
probably have to become System3 for me. I hope that I can find good docs
soon.

Next question: Would it be possible to create a *Java* front end for
the System3? That way taking advantage of platform-independant binaries
that run /natively/ rather than interpreted?
Would that be a lot of work, or be a problem with (Sun) copyrights? Is
something like a Java -> Oberon cross compiler possible? (I'm not an
expert on Compiler design).
I don't know enuff about the Oberon language yet to even know if it
supports structured exceptions, in the way Java does!

Well, greetings from me and I'll post more later

--Tim

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> W.
> --

> Nuclear Structure Research Lab, Univ. of Rochester
> 271 East River Rd, Rochester, NY 14627.
> phone (716) 275 2524  fax (716) 473 5384
> World Wide Web: http://nuchem.nsrl.rochester.edu/~skulski



Fri, 26 May 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Oberon 2 compiler

Quote:

> Hello!

> >>> I wonder, which is the best Oberon-2 compiler for Windows 95. What do you
> >>> think?

> >I suspect though I am not sure that command line Oberon compiler(s)
> >such as O2C and OOC may have Windows versions available.

> oo2c has at least compiled a little hello world porgram under Windows NT 4.0
> using the cygnus win32 gnu package. But there are known problems: The configure
> script does not run because of the esoteric filenameing schema of windows. The
> library - especially the io routines - have to be adapted to the format of the
> windows textfiles (CR+LF and EOT) in some way.

  Just a brief comment on how to handle different end of line
convensions.  The MAINSAIL language used the convention that "eol"
was a platform specific string determined by a configuration file
for the platform.  So one would read and write eol without having
to worry whether it was one character or two or what the values
were.

-Doug
--

Senior Research Engineer        (650) 723-2487
121 Cordura Hall, Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305



Fri, 26 May 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Oberon 2 compiler


Quote:

...
> However, counting in
> System3 I now have 3 Oberon systems installed against only one Java
> system (+plus two IDE's but that's another matter). Far from ideal!
> Two of them will have to go.

Hmm, let's see I have on my windows machine:

o ETH V4
o Linz V4
o S3
o BlackBox
o BlueGnu

and on two windows platforms I have

o Ofront SUN sunos5
o Ofront SGI irix5

and on my MacClassic II a very old version of ETH.

Needless to say this is not a very nice situation.  I also
would like to have one basic system that:

o runs on all platforms
o has a fixed set of basic modules
o has a uniform bidirectional method
  for handling "foreign lanaguage interfaces"
o supports slim binaries
o is "internet ready"

-Doug

--

Senior Research Engineer        (650) 723-2487
121 Cordura Hall, Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305



Fri, 26 May 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Oberon 2 compiler



Quote:
> I also would like to have one basic system that:

> o   runs on all platforms
> o   has a fixed set of basic modules
> o   has a uniform bidirectional method
>       for handling "foreign lanaguage interfaces"
> o   supports slim binaries
> o   is "internet ready"

This is a recurring topic, which means there is a "market"
for such a system among us users. Unfortunately there is
not much money to be made out of this market. Hence let's not
expect commercial BlackBox edition for "all platforms" any soon.

The current crop of various Oberon Systems is a byproduct
of research going on here and there, with various research
groups kindly making their current prototypes available.
It is not obvious to me (and to them) why they should
incorporate nice but well-established features in their
systems. Naively one could think, as I once thought, that
there should be one and only one stable base System, to which
prototypical features would be added. In such a way the said
System would grow better and better by acquiring new features
all the time. But this is not the way things are.
The research is sometimes done by ripping everything apart
and putting back together in a new way, incompatible with
previously existing systems.

Somehow I now tend to thing Doug's "ideal" System will never
appear out of ETH/Linz research. The only way it can possibly
appear is when someone else puts together the best of both V4 and S3.
But who can afford doing this? Who will pay for such work?

In the long run the Oberon community might be better off with
more "professional" platform(s) like OOC. I wonder if OOC is
evolving towards the said ideal System, even though its design
philosophy initially did not specify an integrated IDE.

W.
--

Nuclear Structure Research Lab, Univ. of Rochester
271 East River Rd, Rochester, NY 14627.
phone (716) 275 2524  fax (716) 473 5384
World Wide Web: http://nuchem.nsrl.rochester.edu/~skulski



Fri, 26 May 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 Oberon 2 compiler


Quote:
> * What are advantages of Oberon System3v2 over LinzV4, what are
>   disadvantages?
> * What is the best way to get started programming Oberon, preferably
>   without buying books or printing huge PostScript files?
> * What sort of documentation is delivered with each distribution and
>   where do I find it, what do I type/click to read it?

I can't give you much help with your question about S3v2, but I highly
recommend LinzV4.  It is very reliable and V4 has become nearly
indispensible to me for writing CAD software.  I have compiled
my software (developed in V4) with S3, but a few changes were
required.

For documentation, I recommend the paper at
  ftp://Oberon.ssw.uni_linz.ac.at/pub/Paper/OOPinOberon2.ps.Z

It is a short introduction to using type extension and type-bound
procedures in Oberon.  To really learn how to use this effectively,
however, I had to read Mossenbeck's book with the same title,
Object-Oriented Programming in Oberon".  You will notice many
recommendations for this book in comp.lang.oberon.

My advice is that it is very much worth the effort to learn to use
the Oberon system.

-Greg Haynes



Fri, 26 May 2000 03:00:00 GMT  
 
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