Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++ 
Author Message
 Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++

hello world!

   so what's the best language for the 21rst century?
      what's your opinion on Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++?

John



Mon, 02 Mar 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++

Quote:
>hello world!

>   so what's the best language for the 21rst century?
>      what's your opinion on Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++?

>John

If one of the goals is to minimize defects, as I'd hope would become more common
into the next century, then I'd recommend Modula-3. A few years ago a study
within IBM showed that the defect-insertion rate for C was more than four times
that experienced with Modula-2. I'd expect a similar experiment with Modula-3 and
C++ to show a similar ratio.


Mon, 02 Mar 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++
 One of my Comp. Sci profs is yea on a new language called Oberon- written
by the same guy who wrote Pascal and Modula (Wirth)  He claims it's the
next big language.
 Personally I'm still a big fan of C/C++, mainly for its portability- I
can get the same source code to compile on a PC, Mac, or even the school's
mainframe under Unix.

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Mon, 02 Mar 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++

Quote:
> hello world!

>    so what's the best language for the 21rst century?
>       what's your opinion on Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++?

  INTEGER BASIC. :)

___________
Bushido, n.: the ancient art of keeping your  | James Robinson



Mon, 02 Mar 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++
I'd be interested in this report, too.

Marc

--
http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/mef



Mon, 02 Mar 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++

Quote:


>> re: 21rst century lang
>>   I forgot Ada95
>>    so the list is now C, C++, Modula-2, Modula-3 or Ada95
>And Sather and Eiffel.

And Smalltalk...

Quote:
>> is there a GNU Ada available somewhere?
>> John
>Yes. I don't know where.

ftp.cs.nyu.edu:/pub/gnat  I think, I"m not much for memorizing ftp addresser
though
--
Ian S. Nelson                   I speak for only myself.        
Finger for my PGP key.  


Mon, 02 Mar 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++

Quote:


>>hello world!

>>   so what's the best language for the 21rst century?
>>      what's your opinion on Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++?

>>John

>If one of the goals is to minimize defects, as I'd hope would become more common
>into the next century, then I'd recommend Modula-3. A few years ago a study
>within IBM showed that the defect-insertion rate for C was more than four times
>that experienced with Modula-2. I'd expect a similar experiment with Modula-3 and
>C++ to show a similar ratio.

---------------------------
Is that study available for those of us outside IBM?


Mon, 02 Mar 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++
re: 21rst century lang

  I forgot Ada95

   so the list is now C, C++, Modula-2, Modula-3 or Ada95

is there a GNU Ada available somewhere?
John



Mon, 02 Mar 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++
Are you trying to start a flame war? :-)  

Actually, I recently did a study of language selection criteria, and
the most critical issue was:  What is everyone using now in that domain?
That means, yup, COBOL in many settings.  This will be true
until we can reverse engineer design intent from raw code (which
I've tried, and it ain't easy).

Now for a greenfield, no legacy to worry about, etc. environment, I
would personally choose Modula-3 from your options.  Will it serve in
year 2000+?  I don't know.  But I do know I'd rather be converting
legacy M3 to whatever is the new silver bullet at that time, than
legacy C, C++, or Modula-2.  Why?  Mainly due to the effect of
garbage collection (or lack of it) on the clarity of coding intent.


Quote:

>hello world!

>   so what's the best language for the 21rst century?
>      what's your opinion on Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++?

>John

--
--------------------
Harry George

smail: 22608 90th Ave W / Edmonds WA 98026
quote: <under construction>


Mon, 02 Mar 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++

Quote:

> re: 21rst century lang
>   I forgot Ada95
>    so the list is now C, C++, Modula-2, Modula-3 or Ada95
> is there a GNU Ada available somewhere?

Yep, I'm beginning to like it too!

Try ftp://cs.nyu.edu/pub/gnat

--
----------------------------------------------------------------


----------------------------------------------------------------



Tue, 03 Mar 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++

Quote:

>hello world!

>   so what's the best language for the 21rst century?
>      what's your opinion on Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++?

>John

AAUUUGGGHHH!   A TROLL!

Maurizio Loreti                       http://mvxpd5.pd.infn.it/wwwcdf/mlo.html



Tue, 03 Mar 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++

Quote:

>  One of my Comp. Sci profs is yea on a new language called Oberon- written
> by the same guy who wrote Pascal and Modula (Wirth)  He claims it's the
> next big language.
>  Personally I'm still a big fan of C/C++, mainly for its portability- I
> can get the same source code to compile on a PC, Mac, or even the school's
> mainframe under Unix.

Sorry - I went off Oberon when I realised that:

1) General set types had been discarded - sorry chaps, no more SET OF CHAR.

2) Enumerated types had been discarded - no more DayOfWeek = (Mon,Tue, etc)

3) Arrays HAD to be indexed by integers, starting from zero -
   no more ARRAY [-100..40], DayOfWeek OF ...

Wirth claims that for every feature added to the language (ie Mod-2) it
was necessary to remove one to prevent over-complexity - problem is, I'm
not sure the gain in object orientation was worth (wirth?) the loss of
these features...

Yours in frustration

Bob

~    ~~~  ~~~~      ~~   ~~~  ~~ ~~   ~~  ~~~~~  ~~~     __     ~~  ~~  ~~  ~
                                                       _<Zx\   _ -/
     Bob Lang                                              ||  _-  -/   _

     University of the West Of England                   //_- _ - _/- =/    
                                        ~~~~~  ~~~~~~~~ (_-_-_- =_-===_/ ~~~~~
~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~  ~~~~~~~~~   ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~  ~~~~~  ~~~~~~~ ~~
  ~~~~~~~~  ~~~~~~~~~~~~  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~      ~~~~~~~~ ~~



Tue, 03 Mar 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++

|> >hello world!
|> >
|> >   so what's the best language for the 21rst century?
|> >      what's your opinion on Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++?
|> >
|> >John
|> >
|> If one of the goals is to minimize defects, as I'd hope would become more common
|> into the next century, then I'd recommend Modula-3. A few years ago a study
|> within IBM showed that the defect-insertion rate for C was more than four times
|> that experienced with Modula-2. I'd expect a similar experiment with Modula-3 and
|> C++ to show a similar ratio.
|>

I think I agree in this. Some years ago, some colleagues and myself built a
distributed database (deferred update) on top of Oracle and Ingres. The project
was implemented in Ada. We were all experienced C programmers, but had been
through a short crash course in Ada. Of course there were errors, but usually not
the kind of errors which would creep into our C programs. We found Ada a bit
complex, strange and perhaps a bit clumsy in some repects, but at the end of the project
we concluded that if we had written it in C, the project would have taken no less
time, and that it probably would have contained more errors. After delivery to
the customer, it ran for more than a year before the first error was reported, an
error in the fault reporting system, btw.
I would think that a language like Ada95 or Modula-3 would be a better choice for
many projects than C++. I especially like the multi tasking features of Modula-3.
What worries me is that there does not seem to be a clean way to ensure that a
record has a specific *physical* layout. If it is to be used for systems
programming, I think this is an important feature, because there is often a need
to interface to devices which expect to use a fixed data format.

Since then I have programmed extensively in C++, and have come to the conclusion
that the C++ language is a very powerful tool, and that the flexibility is great.
But is is very complex, and takes a very long time to learn properly. Even then,
it takes almost superhuman effort to keep large projects well structured, and
incomptibility between different libraries seem to be a real problem. C++ is
undeniably more powerful than C, but most of the simplicity of C has disappeared
in the process. I like to compare C to a chainsaw, because it is efficient and
fun to use, and also easy to cut your leg off, but I'm not certain what C++ is....



Tue, 03 Mar 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++

Quote:

> A few years ago a study
> within IBM showed that the defect-insertion rate for C was more
> than four times that experienced with Modula-2.

Is this study available?  I have known this is true for years,
but can never find the data.  There is also a paper titled
"Modula-2 is three times less error-prone than C", or something
similar.  I haven't been able to find it either.

I really want this kind of documented results.  I'm sure there
are others who want it too.  Those who have it/know where it is,
please disclose it to the rest of us.

Rodney Bates



Tue, 03 Mar 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++

Quote:
>>   I forgot Ada95
>>    so the list is now C, C++, Modula-2, Modula-3 or Ada95
>And Sather and Eiffel.

My guess is that Eiffel will be the M2 of the 90's
I.e. good design, good concepts, but never becoming mainstream.

But i would like to think that it may go somewhere.
--
__________________________________________________________________
John Andrea                         St. Francis Xavier Univ.
University Computer Services        Antigonish, NS, CANADA B2G 2W5
http://www.stfx.ca/people/jandrea/



Tue, 03 Mar 1998 03:00:00 GMT  
 
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 Relevant Pages 

1. Modula 2 for Macs - CS instruction

2. Teaching Ada in CS-1/2 (instead of Pascal/Modula)

3. Interfacing C/C++ to Modula-3/Oberon Re (2): Use of Modula-3

4. Report on defect in M2 vs C (Was Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++)

5. Report on defect in M2 vs C (Was Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++)

6. Report on defect in M2 vs C (Was Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++)

7. Modula-2, Modula-3, C or C++

8. to CS: or not to CS: in F-PC assembler

9. translation tools C to Modula-2 and Modula-2 to C

10. Modula-2 for cp/m-80 (was: turbo Modula-2)

11. Report on defect in M2 vs C (Was Modula-2, Modula-3, C o

12. MODULA-2 (OR MODULA-3) GRAMMAR

 

 
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