MT Developers Needed for Brainchild1 
Author Message
 MT Developers Needed for Brainchild1

Thanks for the info.  This is sounding a bit familiar.  i'll take a look
at it, though not right away.



Mon, 25 Feb 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 MT Developers Needed for Brainchild1

Quote:

>I should dearly love to see a machine translation of the section beginning:
>MT - machine translation is germinally if not seminally....

>For me, in Dutch, German or French, but I'm sure it would be popular other
>languages as well.

I would be satisfied with a translation into English.

And could someone please parse "a cost of millions of dollars more per
cyborg-versus-human worker"?

Quote:

>>Alex Gross wrote under otherom on Wed, 08 Sep 1999:

>>> Before you get too carried away with your ideas for
>>> Brainchild1, you just might want to look (or ask your
>>> girlfriend to take a look) at my latest article on MT

>>MT -- Machine Translation -- is germinally if not seminally
>>addressed in the free-of-charge public domain AI nat-lang program

>>http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/7256/mind-fpc.html Mind.Forth,

>>which sandwiches the particular human language lexicons and syntax
>>in between a deep mindcore "psi" and a surface auditory memory "ear".
>>Because Mind.Forth permits the installation of software modules
>>for a variety of human languages, it offers Machine Translation --
>>but at a cost of millions of dollars more per cyborg-versus-human
>>worker.

--Norm


Mon, 25 Feb 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 MT Developers Needed for Brainchild1
I couldn't resist it

MT -- die Maschine bersetzung ist keimlich wenn nicht samenlich
bergeschrieben in die kostenlos ?ffentlich L?ndereien knstliche
Befruchtung des Mcke (?) lange-her Programm
 http://www.accurapid.co/journal/09review.htm
des belegtes Butterbroten die einzeln menschliche Sprachew?rterbuchen und
die Satzlehre mitten in ein tiefes Geisteskerngeh?use Pfund pro Quadratzoll
und eine Oberfl?che Geh?rged?chtenis Ohr. Weil der Geist. Fort erlaubt
der Einbau der Weichwarema?einheiten fr ein Mannigfaltigheid der
menschlichen Sprachen aber auf Kosten des Millionen Dollars mehr pro
Kyborg-gegen-menschlichen-arbeiter.

P.S. Habe ich der Turingpreis gewonnen?



Tue, 26 Feb 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 MT Developers Needed for Brainchild1

Quote:

>I should dearly love to see a machine translation of the section beginning:
>MT - machine translation is germinally if not seminally....

>For me, in Dutch, German or French, but I'm sure it would be popular other
>languages as well.



 [snip]

Quote:
>>which sandwiches the particular human language lexicons and syntax
>>in between a deep mindcore "psi" and a surface auditory memory "ear".
>>Because Mind.Forth permits the installation of software modules
>>for a variety of human languages, it offers Machine Translation --
>>but at a cost of millions of dollars more per cyborg-versus-human
>>worker.

I should dearly love to see a translation of it in comprehensible English!

mvg

Toby

Please reply to the NG, rather than my e-mail (since I visit my mailbox
infrequently).
-----------------------------------------------
A horse goes into a bar.  The barman comes over and says: "Why the long
face?"



Tue, 26 Feb 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 MT Developers Needed for Brainchild1

Quote:
>  I couldn't resist it

You really ought to have.

Quote:
>  P.S. Habe ich der Turingpreis gewonnen?

You might have stood the ghost of a chance if only your previous
sentence had read:

P.S. _Hab'ich_ _DEN_ Turingpreis gewonnen?

REALLY, your amazingly sophomoric parody of what you suppose to be
German might well win the All-American-Prize for All-American
Stupidity and Ignorance of Other Cultures.  But that's about all.

It just might possibly amuse those as ignorant of German as
yourself.  But it certainly will not amuse anyone who knows either
German or anything remotely important about language or linguistics.

Could your foolishness just possibly mark the final fruition of the
whole stupid "Chomskian-Cognitive" mishugass?

Once again, i call your attention to the following URLs:

        http://www.accurapid.com/journal/09review.htm

as well as:

            ftp://oak.oakland.edu/pub/ad-edu/trutra.zip

And while you're at it, you might also want to look at:

            http:\\www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/Work/KK.html



Tue, 26 Feb 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 MT Developers Needed for Brainchild1
Alex>
Alex> REALLY, your amazingly sophomoric parody of what you suppose to be
Alex> German might well win the All-American-Prize for All-American
Alex> Stupidity and Ignorance of Other Cultures.  But that's about all.

Hmm...

The fellow to whom you're replying uses a domain name that ends with "nl".
That's Dutch, isn't it?



Wed, 27 Feb 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 MT Developers Needed for Brainchild1

Quote:

>REALLY, your amazingly sophomoric parody of what you suppose to be
>German

It's a parody of *machine translation*, for goodness sake, not the
German language!
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
Phone +44 (0)1268 747839 Fax +44 (0)1268 777124.
http://www/jmwa.demon.co.uk Did you hear about
the hungry genetic engineer who made a pig of himself?
PLEASE DO ****NOT**** MAIL COPIES OF NEWSGROUP POSTS TO ME!!!!


Wed, 27 Feb 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 MT Developers Needed for Brainchild1
Alex Gross schrieb:

Quote:
> REALLY, your amazingly sophomoric parody of what you suppose to be
> German might well win the All-American-Prize for All-American
> Stupidity and Ignorance of Other Cultures.  But that's about all.

> It just might possibly amuse those as ignorant of German as
> yourself.  But it certainly will not amuse anyone who knows either
> German or anything remotely important about language or linguistics.

I read it and laughed a lot. The only thing I had to complain about was
that James should have posted the two texts together, to prevent us
from having to keep clicking between posts in order to see what was the
original text the absurdity in German should be a translation of.

Reading your answer I remembered another thread about very thin books,
volume nr. 4: "German sense of humour".

JL



Wed, 27 Feb 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 MT Developers Needed for Brainchild1
Reply to Alex Gross

 If you had read the original message, you might have realized that this was
a parody of machine translation, meant ironically. Unfortunately, it is not
very much different from some machine translations I receive from time to
time, and - in my opinion - only marginally less comprehensible than the
original.

With kind regards

James Lee

P.S. Was 'den' the only error?



Wed, 27 Feb 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 MT Developers Needed for Brainchild1

Quote:

>REALLY, your amazingly sophomoric parody of what you suppose to be
>German might well win the All-American-Prize for All-American
>Stupidity and Ignorance of Other Cultures.  But that's about all.

There certainly are some arrogant people on USENET.  And this guy
supposes that we will take the time to read the references he gives
after this monumental put-down.  And I thought that Jorn fellow was
the most blinkered person I'd come across.

Anyway, those interested in Machine Translation, and some of the
amusing errors that commercial systems make, may like to check out
my web page http://ciips.ee.uwa.edu.au/~hutch/hal/Wacky.phtml.
It interfaces to AltaVista's Babelfish (and, within the next hour or
so, a second online translation engine), and automatically translates
from English, to another language, and back again, which allows
monolingual people like myself to evaluate performance (although the
English to English translations will be twice as bad, one would think).
The web page also has a feature whereby you can add amusing translation
to an ever-increasing archive.

I may add support for languages other than English if there is enough
demand.  And I would appreciate any URL's of other online translation
engines, so I can add them to the page.

+=-- -- =--  =-== === --=  ---- === =- - --- = -=-- =-==  = ---- -- =- =-= +
|  Mr Jason Lloyd Hutchens, PhD Student and Procrastinator Extraordinaire  |
| TMBG/IF/MAME/MB/BEOS/PSX/AMIGA/MIDI  Me/Research/Spy/MegaHAL/Humour/More |

|  Unsolicited email advertising is treated with the contempt it deserves  |
+=-== === --= -====- =--  =--- -  - =- -=-- -- ==- ---- = - =- - =-- --==--+



Wed, 27 Feb 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 MT Developers Needed for Brainchild1

Quote:
> automatically translates from English, to another language, and back
> again, which allows monolingual people like myself to evaluate
> performance (although the English to English translations will be
> twice as bad, one would think).

        FWIW, the out-and-back translation often "lucks out" and
returns you to something of the original even though the intermediate
step was terrible. Any completely word-for-word, one-to-one translator
would do this, even though the one-way translations would stink.

        With Systrans, though, I think the out-and-back translations
are worse.
        -JAR
--
A kiss originated when the first male reptile{*filter*}ed the first female
reptile, implying in a subtle complimentary way that she was as
succulent as the small reptile he had for dinner the night before.
        -F. Scott Fitzgerald



Wed, 27 Feb 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 MT Developers Needed for Brainchild1

<snip>

Quote:
> Once again, i call your attention to the following URLs:

<snip>

Quote:
> And while you're at it, you might also want to look at:

>             http:\\www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/Work/KK.html

This gave error message "No such group   http:\\www.tlg.uci.edu "  when
clicked.


Wed, 27 Feb 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 MT Developers Needed for Brainchild1
Sorry to give the impression of being so arrogant.  I had no way of
telling this was an MT parody--as such it's pretty good.  Um Gottes
Willen, German is painful enough to read without any parodies at
all!

so it would appear that we just might be on the same side of the
fence (or closer to it) on this matter.

Quote:
>>             http:\\www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/Work/KK.html

> This gave error message "No such group   http:\\www.tlg.uci.edu "
> when clicked.

Yes, it just did that for me too.  But when i entered it in the
"Open File" field, it went right through.  The WWW is strange.
Anyway, it's an abridged version of Koerner's put-down of Chomsky.

I guess the main "Kontentionsbein" between us might be this: i think
much ai natlang work is misguided, hasn't, can't, and won't work.
just so all you busy people don't have to go skuttling all over the
Net to find my references, i'll append an article i wrote five years
ago right here.  looking over postings here, i see no reason to
suppose it isn't as true and relevant now as it was then.

                  The Next Wave of MT Publicity

                          By Alex Gross

             (Originally published in the ATA Chronicle,
                            July, 1994)

     The year is 1986, and I am sitting on my floor with my
hacker genius friend, whom I'll call Mike.  We are discussing the
imminent wave of Artificial Intelligence programs which will soon
take over the world and make us both vastly rich.  In this
venture I will provide the practical knowledge, Mike the
programming skills.  I am eager to put together a medical
application, and Mike has some ideas of his own.  We both believe
there is no limit to the power of AI to harness ideas, learning,
knowledge.  Mike idly picks up a Roget's Thesaurus lying on my
floor and leafs through it.

     "You see how easy it is, Alex" he tells me, "All we need is
the French equivalent of this book, I link them together with a
program, and bingo: perfect Machine Translation!"  I am hesitant
and attempt to express my doubts.  I try to tell Mike that it
isn't that simple, but he will have none of it.  He is supremely
sure that language is a pushover, what programmers call a
"trivial task."

     Mike never built his MT system, even though he did go on to
write an award-winning AI application that came closer than any
to passing the Turing Test (more about that test later).  So
there is no doubt about his programming skills, nor those of many
other programmers.  What remains in doubt is the capacity of
these highly specialized technicians to assess the deepest
problems connected with MT, AI, and NLP (Natural Language
Processing) applications in general.

     Publicity about MT has come in waves.  The first wave was
launched by Turing, Weaver, Shannon, and other computer pioneers.
A later wave emanated from IBM around the time of the 1964
World's Fair.  The most recent wave started in the mid-Eighties
and has culminated in the various micro and mainframe systems now
familiar to  us.  Each wave has publicized much the same
arguments:

     1.  MT will be faster than human translators.
     2.  MT will be more accurate than human translators.
     3.  MT will be cheaper than HT (though more
          recently this claim has been slurred over).
     4.  MT will break the language barrier and open the
          way to true and lasting human understanding (this
          point has also been deemphasised of late, though
          early enthusiasts greatly stressed it).

     Soon the next wave of MT publicity will burst upon us, and
the publicity mills are already gearing up. (1)  In a year or two we
will be reading about the incredible breakthroughs achieved by
the "CYC" project, a unique Natural Language Processing
experiment using massive parallel processing to build the
supposed eight to ten million links embedded in human language.
CYC supposedly comprises an "EnCYClopedia" of what we have all
learned about the world around us.  Once again all the familiar
arguments about MT are likely to resurface.  Even though CYC is
not an MT system in itself, any success it enjoys will certainly
reach out to embrace MT and other branches of AI.

     There can be no doubt that the CYC project is an important
one worthy of attention by all translators.  For this reason--and
also because its home base is Austin, Texas--I have asked Peter
Krawutschke to determine if it will be possible for a group of
computer-oriented ATA members to look in on CYC while we are in
Austin this October.  Perhaps it could also become possible for
representatives of CYC to take part in our conference program.

     The arguments for and against MT seem to come and go in an
almost cyclical fashion, and some translators have come to view
this subject with apprehension.  But we need to pay attention to
what is happening in MT and AI in general.  Two unassailable
arguments in its favor remain: 1) no one opposes MT where it
really works, and 2) MT works quite well for those tasks where it
is suitable.  The main questions concern which tasks these may
be, whether their number may grow, and how translators will come
to be integrated into the overall continuum of MT, Computer
Assisted Translation, and traditional techniques.

     But as my friend Mike's attitude towards language shows,
there are still some larger concerns about MT, which have dogged
its development from its very beginnings and remain very much
with us.  Underlying the basic assumptions of MT are much the
same notions often vocalized as "Why don't you just type it out
in Spanish?" or "Just look at it and say it in English."  What MT
shares with such solecisms is the notion that the differences
between two languages can easily be predicted and routinized.
Noam Chomsky's concepts of "deep structure" or "universal
grammar" reflect the same fallacies, in this case beefed up with
many layers of academic terminology.  Basic to all these
approaches is the half-truth that language is inherently
reasonable, which must be balanced against the other half-truth,
that it is not reasonable at all.  It is altogether possible--as
I have argued elsewhere (2)--that on an evolutionary plane language
may be at least partially an outgrowth of the spray marks used by
animals to claim territory, attract mates, or repel rivals.

     Similarities between MT and other coequal branches of AI--
"voice-writing," text retrieval, robotics, Machine Vision--also
cannot be overstressed: all have fallen behind schedule for
closely related reasons.  Voice-writing--which was originally
supposed to catch every nuance of speech automatically--has now
settled for asking the speaker to confirm or correct it following
every word or phrase.  Text retrieval has still not fully
recovered from the ambitious claims made surrounding its birth.
One thing the computer does best is to match up strings of text,
though this was never strictly speaking "AI."  But anything less
than a perfect match requires what is called a "fuzzy search,"
which in turn often produces vast quantities of "quasi-results"
requiring highly qualified humans to determine their relevance.
This means we are still a long way from truly reliable research
based on a given text base.  This is because searching according
to "key-words" is only as accurate as the key-words which have
been entered.  In other words, a search through a legal data base
under the heading "{*filter*}age {*filter*}" will not find:

     JUDGE:  Did you have the baby?
     REPLY:  No, I decided not to.

     Robotics, envisioned as supplying us all with unlimited
household servants, did not even succeed completely in taking
over the factory floor--rather, the factory floor had to be
redesigned from scratch to allow robots to work.  And one still
hears the story of the two Japanese welding robots who during a
lull have been known to start welding each other.  Even Isaac
Asimov, the father of Robotics, expressed his disappointment that
these machines were not robots as he envisioned them.  And as for
Machine Vision, how many people are ready to have a computer make
the next left turn for them, much less drive them off into the
sunset?

     Like Asimov, even AI's primary advocate, Marvin Minsky, has
taken to writing science fiction to promote his ideas, which
begin to sound indeed more and more like SF and less like viable
proposals.  And even Minsky is now hedging on the future of MT,
as this account of instant Japanese-English interpreting from his
The Turing Option (co-authored with Harry Harrison) illustrates:

     "He touched the phone disconnect button and the voxfax
     machine behind him instantly sprang to life, humming lightly
     as it disgorged the printed record of their phone
     conversation.  His words were in black, while Mura's were in
     red for instant identification.  The translation system had
     been programmed well, and as he glanced through it he saw no
     more than the usual number of errors.....The staff
     translator would later verify the correctness of the
     translation the computer had made." (3)

     Of course this wondrous machine had already made a real-time
onscreen "rough," though some may wonder what "the usual number
of errors" was and how the protagonist recognized them without
himself being an expert translator.  (And if he were, why would
he have needed this device in the first place?)

     Thus, even science fiction has partially given up on old-
fashioned, red-{*filter*}ed AI.  The whole point of the Turing Test
was to make a computer so lifelike that those communicating with
it via keyboard from another room would actually believe they
were talking to a human.  No machine has yet fully passed this
test, which has since been subjected to many doubts and
objections--even Alan Turing himself never supposed such a ruse
could be maintained for more than a few minutes (4).  And so the
days of the completely human computer may belong to the past
rather than ...

read more »



Wed, 27 Feb 2002 03:00:00 GMT  
 
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